...life can be translucent

Menu

Richard Rutt

Joined
Feb 19, 2010
Messages
1,260
Reaction score
18
Someone convince me I should pay $150 dollars for Richard Rutt's book.

I have read the review Hilary posted, and became very interested. It is a short review however. I proceeded to Amazon, and checked Half as well... Lowest is $150 US Dollars..

I just need to know more about the book. Just a little bit more to get the strength to push the "check out" button.

I am very interestied in the Yijing, not just for divination purposes. I want to understand it more deeply, it seems like Rutt would give a great angle.

People that have the book, what do you think?
(as usual, always appreciate the feedback)

-AQ
 

pocossin

visitor
Joined
Feb 7, 1970
Messages
4,521
Reaction score
181
I don't have it and won't be buying it. At one time parts of Rutt's I Ching book were available as a Google Book, and I read them. They may not be available now. I very much dislike Rutt's approach, attitude, and values, but he occasionally makes points worth knowing, so if I wanted to know everything written about the I Ching, then I'd read Rutt's book. That said, it would be nice if you would buy it and review it in great detail for the rest of us :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Rutt
 
Last edited:

charly

visitor
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
2,315
Reaction score
243
I am very interestied in the Yijing, not just for divination purposes. I want to understand it more deeply, it seems like Rutt would give a great angle.

People that have the book, what do you think?
...
Hi, Courtney:

I have read almost 3/4 of the book in Google Books. I believe that it's very important for scholarship. Rutt belongs to the MODERNISTS, he contextualize his reading on historic customs instead of on Confucian philosophy. Say, customs like sacrificing captives and the like. His translation of the core text, the Zhou Yi, is not always literal but RECONSTRUCTIVE, if it is possible, and when he can, rhymed (!).

I believe, not too good for divination purposes.

But it's a MUST if you intent a serious study of the Zhou Yi, although I don't share his position.

Of course, for me, LITLE AFFORDABLE. Persevering with Google Books can get even screenshots of good part of the book.

My advice is to try first with online reading for seeing if it is useful for you.

If you read italian, can get free the the FERRERO translation that follows Rutt closely, I believe:

http://www.labirintoermetico.com/09IChing/I_CHING_traduzione_di_Daniele_Ferrero.pdf
giocoocap.jpg

Source: Daniele Ferrero: I Ching, at Laberinto Ermetico
http://www.labirintoermetico.com/09IChing/index.htm

More resources there, mainly in english.

All the best,


Charly

P.D.:
Try with the dane page of Christensen
http://livetsforvandlinger.dk/index.html

Or try with:
http://ebookbrowse.com/richard-rutt-pdf-d304128182
Ch.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Feb 19, 2010
Messages
1,260
Reaction score
18
Whoa, thank you Tom for your thoughts and the link. The Anglican bishop aspect is interesting.. so is the knitting.
 
Joined
Feb 19, 2010
Messages
1,260
Reaction score
18
You guys are right, on Google Books you can view most of the book. This helps tremendously in figuring out if it resonates well with me. THANKS! (Oh, and I have never used google books before, so that door is now open)
 
Joined
Feb 19, 2010
Messages
1,260
Reaction score
18
The different types of people that have walked this earth amazes me. My head is spinning from all of the knitting books, it is so far from something of interest to me. Yet Rutt has the common thread of interest with liking Zhouyi.. So many different types of folks...

Oh, Charly, that picture looks like it could be a pretty cool spin on the game Candy Land.
 

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,120
Reaction score
107
Joined
Feb 19, 2010
Messages
1,260
Reaction score
18
Yes, it is the same book. IMO, the best part of Rutt is in the material. The translation itself is 'terse', to say the least. May I ask what are you trying to accomplish in buying a book like Rutt's?

Probably to get myself in over my head with information... Honestly, I am reconsidering. Please don't think I am being rude, but the guy is starting to give me the creeps. Just a first impression. It started with the bishop and knitting thing. I don't know why.

But Luis, to try and answer your question better, when I read Hilary's review, it seemed like a gem and something a bit off beat but of value. I guess that answers the question.. that and I am very much so wanting to dive deeper. (Personally might hold off on the Rutt pool though)
 

bradford

(deceased)
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 30, 2006
Messages
2,626
Reaction score
410
Try Interlibrary loan.
I don't like Rutt's book, or his approach, or that ripoff publisher that he used.
That said, his translation of the Ten Wings is pretty good.
If you want a better Modernist approach, might I suggest Richard Kunst's dissertation?
 

charly

visitor
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
2,315
Reaction score
243
Courtney:

An example of how Rutt translates, compared with Legge:

[2.4:]
(6) 4 Tying sacks of grain
NO MISFORTUNE, no honour.
[page 225]

[Note:]
(4) Literally «Tying sacks». This makes sense as a reference to the autumn harvest of grain. [page 295]

R. Rutt


The fourth SIX, divided, (shows the symbol of) a sack tied up. There will be no ground for blame or for praise.

Legge

The chinese received text
with literal translation (one among all the possible)
and my own glosses:


六四
liu4 si4
SIX FOURTH
A six in the fourth place:

括囊
kuo4 nang2
ENCLOSED PURSE
HIdden pocket for guarding the valuable.
Or tied purse (avoiding coins to be lost).

无咎无譽
wu2 jiu4 wu2 yu4
NO WRONG NO REPUTATION
Nothing wrong although disreputable.
No blame, no praise.

Maybe you have already divinated, given my nitch, that I see the «PURSE» as a metaphor of FEMALE GENITALIA. The line spoke of another sort of HARVEST, being the autumn the season when the result of SPRING FESTIVALS makes itself evident, the condition for young commoners marriage, that the girl be pregnant.

Of course not that «Tying sacs» be a bad translation but that Rutt´s RECONSTRUCTIONISM makes him drop «of grain», that is not in the text but in the context that Rutt figured out.

And the chinese received text runs without parsing and without typographic resources like UPPERCASES or cursives, used by Rutt for pointing to a structure that is not pointed in the received text.

Yours,


Charly
 
Last edited:
Joined
Feb 19, 2010
Messages
1,260
Reaction score
18
Try Interlibrary loan.
The way in which I search for information is expanding through this thread. I might have been living under a rock before, but have never heard of this Bradford. Thanks, another door opens.
his translation of the Ten Wings is pretty good.
On Google Books there are a couple pages here and there, in his Ten Wings section, that are missing.
If you want a better Modernist approach, might I suggest Richard Kunst's dissertation?
Suggestions are of course welcomed, and thank you. http://onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2005/05/29/richard-kunsts-dissertation/ Sounds pretty good. I found it on UMI like Hilary suggested (their webpage changed domains).

Thank you Bradford.

All the best,
-AQ
 
Joined
Feb 19, 2010
Messages
1,260
Reaction score
18
Thanks for you help Charly.

I believe I will be searching online for bits of Rutt's book and that is all for now.


Maybe you have already divinated, given my nitch, that I see the «PURSE» as a metaphor of FEMALE GENITALIA. The line spoke of another sort of HARVEST, being the autumn the season when the result of SPRING FESTIVALS makes itself evident, the condition for young commoners marriage, that the girl be pregnant.

I could see that. It makes sense. There might also be a connection to pregnancy, because the 4th line changes making the top trigram thunder.

Right around the time that you were discussing the Pearl with Iams Girl (in the 50.1 thread), I was learning a little about 2.4, and I kept picturing that the closed bag [COULD] contain a pearl inside. I am seeing a new pregnancy as a pearl inside of the uterus, and the uterus as the ting that holds it. And really the anticipation (16) of the unknown (2.4). Is the Pearl in the bag?? :) Thanks for the example of different translations!

Of course not that «Tying sacs» be a bad translation but that Rutt´s RECONSTRUCTIONISM makes him drop «of grain», that is not in the text but in the context that Rutt figured out.
It does seem to be like Luis said, terse.

Thanks so much.

-AQ
 

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,120
Reaction score
107
Probably to get myself in over my head with information... Honestly, I am reconsidering. Please don't think I am being rude, but the guy is starting to give me the creeps. Just a first impression. It started with the bishop and knitting thing. I don't know why.

But Luis, to try and answer your question better, when I read Hilary's review, it seemed like a gem and something a bit off beat but of value. I guess that answers the question.. that and I am very much so wanting to dive deeper. (Personally might hold off on the Rutt pool though)

Well, let's make something clear: There's nothing wrong with Rutt and his work and scholarship. On the contrary, I believe his sources are very good and the material is excellent. He was very thoughtful and thorough. My only issue is with his actual translation of the text of the Zhouyi. He made choices that, even though they may be correct from the syntactical and grammatical point of view of the time when those characters were written down, the result is an overly reductionist rendition of it in English (if that is possible, given the character of the original text). But that is a matter of personal taste, I'd say. His work occupies a esteemed place in my collection and I'm glad I bought it before it blew the reasonable price roof.

When I asked you about your goals I tried to appraise how far you want to go in your studies. Most people, well over 90% of those that encounter the Yijing, are content with "feeling" that they "dig" the oracle and are happy with knowing how to form hexagrams and pull an answer from the "book." The minority, OTOH, are so taken by the puzzle that try to get under-the-hood of its origins and history. If you are one of those --and you appear to be-- then I'll suggest you start with some books that have been published in the last couple of years and written by Richard J. Smith:

Fathoming the Cosmos and Ordering the World: The Yijing (I Ching, or Classic of Changes) and Its Evolution in China (Richard Lectures)

The "I Ching": A Biography (Lives of Great Religious Books)

These works are recent (the latter just being published) and would have saved me a lot of time and reading to form a historical understanding of the classic.

I also suggest you seriously consider Steve Marshall's "The Mandate of Heaven".

If you are even considering spending $150 for Rutt's in hardcover, I suggest you spend that money in this, Bent Nielsen's A Companion to Yi jing Numerology and Cosmology.

Furthermore, as Brad suggest, Kunst dissertation is superb and I'll also will add Edward Shaughnessy's dissertation "The Composition of the Zhouyi".

Well, that's more than enough reading. It will keep you busy for a while... :D
 

charly

visitor
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
2,315
Reaction score
243

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,120
Reaction score
107
I know! Great guy, by the way. I've had the pleasure to exchange information and ideas with him.
 

heylise

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 15, 1970
Messages
3,128
Reaction score
202
It is one of the books I like a LOT. Most of all for all that information.
 
Joined
Feb 19, 2010
Messages
1,260
Reaction score
18
Well, let's make something clear: There's nothing wrong with Rutt and his work and scholarship. On the contrary, I believe his sources are very good and the material is excellent. He was very thoughtful and thorough. My only issue is with his actual translation of the text of the Zhouyi. He made choices that, even though they may be correct from the syntactical and grammatical point of view of the time when those characters were written down, the result is an overly reductionist rendition of it in English (if that is possible, given the character of the original text). But that is a matter of personal taste, I'd say. His work occupies a esteemed place in my collection and I'm glad I bought it before it blew the reasonable price roof.
You are lucky Luis to have gotten it before prices went up. The price is what steered me into asking on the forum. I wanted people to talk about it more so I could get a better understand before paying lots of doe.... but, I don't have a problem throwing down cash if it is worth it.. and despite having some creepy thought about him as a man, I know this is not fair to Rutt and certainly nothing to base whether I think the book has merit or not. I am sure, down the line, I will get his book. I will pay for it I am sure. I like to thumb through hard copies. As for now, I am going to check out the online available pages. Thank you for telling me your opinion. I can tell how much respect you have for the Yijing and I value your opinion.

When I asked you about your goals I tried to appraise how far you want to go in your studies. Most people, well over 90% of those that encounter the Yijing, are content with "feeling" that they "dig" the oracle and are happy with knowing how to form hexagrams and pull an answer from the "book." The minority, OTOH, are so taken by the puzzle that try to get under-the-hood of its origins and history. If you are one of those --and you appear to be-- then I'll suggest you start with some books that have been published in the last couple of years and written by Richard J. Smith:
I kind of figured you were trying to size me up in regards to my seriousness and I appreciate it. I know that I will be having a life long relationship with the Yijing. I don't so much mind messing up on the way, I feel like overall I am progressing with a slow and steady understanding. All I know, is that I don't know much, despite being filled with admiration for the text and the spirit behind it. From an outside perspective, it could certainly look obsessive (or even worse if people could see what is going on in my head). I find myself relating life with Yi more and more, in all sorts of different ways. Probably some ways that are very similar to others, and perhaps some ways that are just my own. Of course, Clarity members see me interacting and communicating ideas. A lot of them for me are ideas still in formulation (and might be forever).

I have ideas and a deep relationship growing that is of my own, but for me to actually formulate more on my own, I need to understand the history, the characters, the intent of the people that made them, etc. So things like that are what I am searching for. Get[ing] under-the-hood of its origins and history. This is precisely what I want to do (and just knicking the surface :)).

It is unfair to keep asking you forum members what you think about this and that all of the time. But I do like it. I am going through a tough time in my life where I think I crave and desire communication and connection TOO MUCH. Not really in an intimate way. Hard to explain. However, if that is the case of why I ask or not, I am not sure. I value Clarity member's opinions. I would like to start forming my own however! I just need the correct materials and books (along with the correct open mind). So I have to ask about books.

Every once in a while I have asked a question (about facts regarding the Yijing) and got WONDERFUL feedback that I know was coming from some great book out there that I should get. Everyone should site sources for every sentence they write! .. just kidding :D

Luis, THANK YOU for the recommendations! :hug:

Well, that's more than enough reading. It will keep you busy for a while... :D
Those should keep this seedling passified
baby-vector.jpg
 

charly

visitor
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
2,315
Reaction score
243
... I know this is not fair to Rutt and certainly nothing to base whether I think the book has merit or not. I am sure, down the line, I will get his book. I will pay for it I am sure....
... It is unfair to keep asking you forum members what you think about this and that all of the time. But I do like it.
Hi, Courtney:

Please, don't feel unfair with Rutt neither with the forum members. We are here for asking and being asked.

Business are business and work is work. The Bishop doesn't need your money now. I'm sure he shoud be happy if you appreciate his work more than if you contrilbute with the editorial business.

To be fair means another thing than plainly paying for everything.

... I am going through a tough time in my life where I think I crave and desire communication and connection TOO MUCH...

Good!

Not really in an intimate way.

What a pity!

Turning back: for the better things we enjoy in life, often we cannot pay.

All the best,


Charly
 
Joined
Feb 19, 2010
Messages
1,260
Reaction score
18
Hi Charly,

Shoot, I should not have used the word intimate.. that was completely wrong. I'm at a time where relationships, and Mr. X (y and z) just do not exist. I guess this is what I meant to say (and possibly didn't explain anymore because there is no need to bring it into focus). I am walking through life and trying really hard to not focus on this sort of subject. I find it hard sometimes. Working on my relationship with Yijing is a big part of this. It is not simply to fill a void, but it IS an interest I have that I feel good and strong about.

Yijing exists very much so in the foreground of my life. I have a good set of solid friends, love them, yet I desire to connect with people in an intelligent and meaningful way. I don't know one person I can talk to about the Yijing in person. I do my share of sprinkling it into conversations, but it is surely not for everyone. They take it lightly, and that is fine. I desire TOO MUCH to connect with people in this realm of life and this is part of the reason I enjoy the forum.

My desire is not so much even limited to the Yijing. I have this craving to connect with people more in a spirit type nature. I don't know what it is all about yet, the craving. I have a lot to sort out. It is probably that I have a void within myself and want it to be easily filled by someone else...Another reason perhaps Mr. X is nonexistent. And just to clarify, there isn't a sad song playing in the background, more like a Phillip Glass piece and me trying to figure everything out.

Take care,
Courtney
 

charly

visitor
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
2,315
Reaction score
243
...he looks like my dad :rolleyes:

The YiJing website of Richard Smith:
Chao Center for Asian Studies:
http://chaocenter.rice.edu/Content.aspx?id=601

with the following pdf documents:
Glossaries for Fathoming the Cosmos and Ordering the World: The Yijing (I-Ching, or Classic of Changes) and Its Evolution in China
A. Names (People, Places, etc.)
B. Titles (Books, Chapters, etc.)
C. Terms and Expressions
D. Hexagram Glossary (Alphabetical)
E. Hexagram Glossary (Received Text Order )
F. Mawangdui Hexagram Glossary (Alphabetical)

II. Some Yijing-related writings
A. "Translations of Hexagram Names"
B. "Jesuit Interpretations of the Yijing"
C. "Meditation, Divination and Dream Interpretation"
D. "The Changes as a Mirror of the Mind"
E. " The Yijing (Classic of Changes) in Global Perspective: Some Reflections"
F. "Key Concepts of Fate and Prediction in the Yijing"

Steve Marshall's review of Fathoming the Cosmos:
http://www.biroco.com/yijing/smith.htm

Charly
 
Joined
Feb 19, 2010
Messages
1,260
Reaction score
18
I might grab Steve Marshall's book first. If I remember correctly without looking it up, it is a collection of stories based in the Yijing? Like Yi the Archer?
 

charly

visitor
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
2,315
Reaction score
243
Hi Charly,

Shoot, I should not have used the word intimate.. that was completely wrong. I'm at a time where relationships, and Mr. X (y and z) just do not exist. I guess this is what I meant to say (and possibly didn't explain anymore because there is no need to bring it into focus). I am walking through life and trying really hard to not focus on this sort of subject. I find it hard sometimes. Working on my relationship with Yijing is a big part of this. It is not simply to fill a void, but it IS an interest I have that I feel good and strong about.

Yijing exists very much so in the foreground of my life. I have a good set of solid friends, love them, yet I desire to connect with people in an intelligent and meaningful way. I don't know one person I can talk to about the Yijing in person. I do my share of sprinkling it into conversations, but it is surely not for everyone. They take it lightly, and that is fine. I desire TOO MUCH to connect with people in this realm of life and this is part of the reason I enjoy the forum.

My desire is not so much even limited to the Yijing. I have this craving to connect with people more in a spirit type nature. I don't know what it is all about yet, the craving. I have a lot to sort out. It is probably that I have a void within myself and want it to be easily filled by someone else...Another reason perhaps Mr. X is nonexistent. And just to clarify, there isn't a sad song playing in the background, more like a Phillip Glass piece and me trying to figure everything out.

Take care,
Courtney

Hi, Courtney:

Don't get upset with me. Far from my intention to be rude, you know.

But our words have their own life and they are free to talk without our permission.

In the study of the Changes we are lost in a forest of meanings. Be for going far from home o for coming back to home, we must disentangle the knots of words only for seeing that they reentagle quickly behind us.

All the best,


Charly
 
Joined
Feb 19, 2010
Messages
1,260
Reaction score
18
Don't get upset with me. Far from my intention to be rude, you know.

But our words have their own life and they are free to talk without our permission.
..I know. :hug: You must know I love you and your niches Charly!

In the study of the Changes we are lost in a forest of meanings. Be for going far from home o for coming back to home, we must disentangle the knots of words only for seeing that they reentagle quickly behind us.
kind of like Hexagram 39, then 40.. and on and on and on..
 

charly

visitor
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
2,315
Reaction score
243
I might grab Steve Marshall's book first. If I remember correctly without looking it up, it is a collection of stories based in the Yijing? Like Yi the Archer?
Courtney:

Better pay for Hidden History, Steve is alive and will enjoy for it.

If you pay or not for Bronze Age Document doesn't matter to Rutt. Can read it online, no blame. The same happens with Wu Jing Nuan, he also should enjoy if get access to his work.

Yours,


Charly
 

bradford

(deceased)
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 30, 2006
Messages
2,626
Reaction score
410
I might grab Steve Marshall's book first. If I remember correctly without looking it up, it is a collection of stories based in the Yijing? Like Yi the Archer?

The Zhouyi has a strong historical thread running through it. There are a lot of references to then-recent historical events that were part of the cultural dialog and understanding these helps in understanding the text in greater depth. Sometimes these references were just subtle additional entendres, sometimes they are a real stretch of the imagination even to see them, and sometimes they were critical to the core concept. Steve's book is a more systematic survey.
 

charly

visitor
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
2,315
Reaction score
243
...
Right around the time that you were discussing the Pearl with Iams Girl (in the 50.1 thread), I was learning a little about 2.4, and I kept picturing that the closed bag [COULD] contain a pearl inside. I am seeing a new pregnancy as a pearl inside of the uterus, and the uterus as the ting that holds it. And really the anticipation (16) of the unknown (2.4). Is the Pearl in the bag?? :)...
Hi, Courtney:

I believe that the most ancient association with DING (sacred vessel -tripod or four legged one- / cauldron / crucible) is, of couse, WOMB. But seeing that even MEN have DINGS in their anatomy, maybe a more general associacion could be SEXUAL or REPRODUCTIVE ORGANS.

Look a picture from Weiger's History of Believes...

f413.highres

Source: Gallica
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k58055058/f413.image
{No sure if it will function]

Yours,

Charly

P.D.
Raw translation:
Endogenetics of the trascendent being. Achemical scheme.
From the brain descends the sperm, liquid brain.
The hearth provides assimilable air and the vital spirit.
The stove, matrix of the transcendent being.

Another story: was this print quoted by Van Gulik? I believe to remember something.

Ch.
 
Last edited:

Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom

Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).

Top