Seventeen issues

[void]

I know this may be a bit of a basic question but 17 is a hexagram I feel befuddled about and I can't find too much about it in hex index. Is it purely about adapting to prevailing forces around you ? Sometimes I read it as following your highest goal which is not the same as just adapting ? How active is the kind of following it
describes ? Does it mean just fitting in ? Please tell me what your reaction is when you get 17, what do you think it says to you ?

I would read what Brad writes about it but haven't figured zip files yet - hopeless I know

 

[auriel]

17 gives you a choice, man or boy, chelsea or bolton wanderers, but concerns active persuit , which is to say persuit with discrimination, without prejudice, ideally,(line 5) but done in order to take what you need from it- the very process of following being one through which we may perceive and fulfill our own needs, espeacially those concerning socialisation. the object followed becomes a mirror for the individual, while at the same time reshaping him in its own image. adaptation the issue.
if their is a prevailing force, it may be best to "follow" it according to the cautions in the text, thereby staying one up on the powers that be, for instance. followers gain some quotient of protective anonimity (1), and from this posture can refrain from absolute commitment (2) as long as possible (3).
too, we are warned not to take this passion into night, to become over-involved with it, to let it rather than ultimate goals influence us, and as what we follow may well be more powerful than us, our openess may become a terrible vulnerability (void!). i think yes it does pertain to highest goals in the sense that "when a man perceives all is illusion he chooses the highest illusion to persue". but, line 6, he should offers even this allegiance up as a sacrifice. (the other reading of this line, that he is offered or presented by the king shows one becoming the personification of what he persues. the two readings are consonant, descripive of a moment of real drama in a person's life-like abraham- isaac- faith-)
on a lighter note, i am for example following this forum while i'm working non-stop on the computer. i'm getting a little embarassed about so readily answering everything that comes up, doubtful of my sagacity and clarity and feeling too highly visible so i should back off a while(4th line).
but be assured i will be watching

[zips? just go to zdnet.com search for and download winrar, install and thats all, they'll open at your click]

 

[bruce]

Hi Void. Bet you'll get a lot of input on this one.

I'll just say that to me, 17 is following the path you were born to follow. I believe in the 2 path concept: The one we're born to follow in order to live out our story or myth, and the one we choose for ourselves. I think that's the essence of hex 50's meaning. Following then is being true not to your chosen path, but to the path you were born to live. But that doesn't imply that following the true path is always what's best. If that was so we'd never have left our bliss for Mistress Mara. Going off the path to see what's on the other side of the hill, that too becomes our story. A time for following and a time for leading. That's how I read the changes, and a full life.

 

[lightofdarkness]

Since the IC is derived from self-referencing (recursion of yin/yang) it can be used to describe itself and that means all hexagrams to describe each.

17 shares meaning with 25.
17 is unconditional. cooperative.
Its skeletal form is described by analogy to 12.
12 covers neutralising the attacks of others on one's belief/faith and in doing so validating that faith. This interpreted in skeletal form indicates a generic focus establishing some faith/following that is refined in 17 (the thunder base represents the 'new' and the moment of 'enlightenment')
Conversly the under-played qualities of 17 is the analogy used to describe the skeletal form of 12 where we defend our following (in the traditional IC this defence is considered against change and so considered 'stagnation' etc).

The analogy of completeness of 17 is to the general characteristics of 62 where we cover issues of unconditional loyalty to some collective.

See the full spectrum of 17 in:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/x011001.html

Chris.

 

[micheline]

Hi Void,
I find this to be a very uplifting and positive hexagram..not at all just a matter of adapting, but one of joyfully following your bliss, your heart's desires... Going with the flow of personal destiny

Allowing what is right and beautiful and true to emerge is maybe not as "active" as some other activities...I think there is an element of joyful surrender TO....and of a "letting go" of what holds one back.

When we follow our dreams, we must necessarily leave behind the petty concerns/attitudes/doubts /fears (line 2) and joyfully embrace the bigger picture.(line 3)

Line 5 , in particular, is faithfulness and loyalty to the highest vision, to the inner compass. Not settling for less than the highest.... leading to fulfillment.

The book, The Alchemist, is one I consider to be repesentative of this 17 journey. There are stops and starts, certain sacrfices to be made, and a shedding of all the influences/people which may deter you in your quest. BUt ultimately, the one who is loyal to following his/her "personal legend" is rewarded. (The book is very nice if you haven't read it)

I am sure there may be people who will disagree with me on this, as I have heard it discussed in less heartening ways.... and I am not a scholar . BUt when I get this hexagram, I feel encouraged.

(trying to grasp what Bruce is saying...do you mean the path one chooses is always different from the one you are born to live? I tend to think we sometimes end up on paths by default or via social pressure, but the true path is the heart's calling..it nudges you forever whether you listen or not)

 

[bruce]

Hi Micheline. I like what you've said.

"do you mean the path one chooses is always different from the one you are born to live?"

Maybe it's better expressed as the subtle path and gross path. They're not conflicting paths, necessarily. They can walk together or separate: going and returning.

 

[bruce]

I looked out the window and said, "wind through the reeds, reeds kiss the mountain, mountain meets the sky." Someone said I was day dreaming, and I said ?no, just seeing.? So I decided to make a picture of it. I experimented with depth of field settings and chose this one because it made inside and outside two separate dimensions. Two paths.

 

[void]

Bruce and Michelines posts combined reminded me of a mini inner experience I had recently.

I was just resting before sleep but not asleep. I saw that a puddle of water was lifted up all as one mass to form a cloud. In this very relaxed half drowsy mind state I was in, it came as a kind of mini revelation to me that one was the other, one became the other, moved up to become the other etc. Somehow the water transformed its substance to a cloud - yes yes evaporation I know and have known a long time how water makes clouds makes rain again etc what we learnt at school....but somehow this knowledge really felt entirely different within me. Not a fact but a process of consciousness...Anyway that is what Bruces post above reminded me of.

Some days later a book placed itself into my hands
that is my feet carried me spontaneously into a shop as the friend I was waiting for was late, where my hands picked out The Valkyries by Paulo Coelho. I bought it for a few pence and later this is the first passage jumped out at me.

"What do you see in that immense sky ?" J asked.

"Clouds"

"No" J said. "You see the soul of the rivers. Rivers that have just been reborn in the sea. They will rise to the sky, and remain there until, for whatever reason, they once again become rain and fall to earth. The rivers return to the mountains, but carry with them the wisdom of the sea."
"That is how you discovered those secrets we had never discussed" J said. "You are a river. You have already run down to the sea, and you know its wisdim. You have died and been reborn many times. All you have to do is remember."

Michelines mention of The Alchemist reminded me of that since I believe it is also by Paulo Coelho. Not sure if my musings and memories are relevant to 17, but they might be ? 'Clouds being the soul of rivers' that summed up my little pre sleep revelation.

Chris mentions faith in 17, what is formed after 12 when ones beliefs have been attacked - that rings a bell perhaps 17 has something to do with faith, with being true to something ?

I can understand how the object followed becomes mirror image of the follower as Auriel describes - but then says there is a need not to lose self in this following. Does that mean devotion is an important part of 17 ? What I'm gleaning from these answers is 17 is about faith, devotion, following your inevitable path (bit like a river maybe). Still sometimes in the application of 17 to practical questions, say about work etc I still find it a little difficult to see, bit of a blind spot with me I think - but with your help I'm getting there !! Thanks to everyone..

I will go and try to make a zip opener like Auriel said, hope it works.

 

[matt]

Dont worry Auriel, you are doing a good job. Move when you feel the impulse to move and still when the impulse subsides. Your posts are enjoyable and refreshing material.

 

[bruce]

Void,

Interesting that you saw a "puddle" rather than a larger body of water. That, I think, would indicate you as an individual. The puddle becomes clouds: your individual becomes universal. To me that sounds very much like 17. The puddle doesn?t decide to evaporate into the clouds. It only follows the greater truth.

 

[bruce]

And would you agree that clouds are more subtle than a puddle?

 

[void]

Yup Bruce thats me, a puddle, I'm sitting here laughing as I never saw myself as a puddle before.

But you're right strange it was a puddle, but the point was in my 'vision' what I saw was the whole of the puddle lifting off in one go - lifting off as one at one time, not gently evaporating. I would have had trouble seeing the sea lift off as one, on account of it being so big, lol, my imagination probably couldn't deal with that.

I like your take on it though. I agree a cloud is more subtle than a puddle, not so accessible though - for splashing in. I think Winnie the Pooh once attempted to disguise himself as a cloud, a rain cloud I think to fool some passing bees - it didn't work.

 

[bruce]

Void, chuckling here too. There?s worse self-images than a puddle, me thinks. But let?s not go there. lol

"in my 'vision' what I saw was the whole of the puddle lifting off in one go - lifting off as one at one time, not gently evaporating"

That's why it isn't dispersion or dissolution, but a revolutionary change (49), as in 17.3: losing the small by following the great. Another applicable change line is 17.1: a changing standard resulting in a greater gathering (45).

 

[cal val]

When I look at clouds I see all the colors of the earth reflected back at me.

 

[bruce]

And when you look at the lake, you see the clouds?

 

[void]

How come Val ? Clouds are white and the earth isn't, except where theres snow of course. I must just be being too literal ?

From my bed I can see the whole sky which is very pleasant. When I am being idle I look for omens there. The other day a huge 2 came floating by, though I could glean nothing from it - there must be an art to cloud reading ?

 

[cal val]

Hi Void...

Clouds are white...yes... sometimes... not all the time. And when they ARE white... what colors combine to make white?

Below is a background I created meeting a ground for a 3D world on the internet. Just for kicks, download it and open it in whatever graphics/photo editing program you have on your computer, enlarge it to 1600% and then tell me what color(s) the clouds are.

<center>

</center>

That's how I paint too. I use all the colors of the spectrum splashed on the canvas where the clouds will be. I use some colors more than others depending on the time of day I'm capturing... and then I add a layer of white and whatever else in varying degrees until I get the look I want. All of the colors are always still visible through the white... because that's how it is in nature.

Love,

Val

 

[void]

Grooovy

 

[bruce]

That's beautiful, Val. Nice work.

 

[heylise]

Love your rough sea of clouds

LiSe