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Shen shu?

martin

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Hi Chris,

You wrote:
"Our minds, ignorant of our species-nature, will then create a story about being 'guided' etc by invisible beings etc."

Implying that there are no invisible beings and so on, right?
Is this not what Deikman calls "reducing them to neurophysiological artifacts"?

BTW I think a conversation between you and Deikman would be very interesting.
Perhaps you could email him ;)
 

martin

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Another quote from your answer to Deb:
"We cannot know anything outside of the bounds of our senses other than the extension of those bounds in our instruments."

Fact? Looks like a belief to me ...
 

martin

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I'm out of body now and see you, typing furiously ..
biggrin.gif
 

davidl

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Quote Pedro

In any case, it seems to me that the philosophic part is what activates the intelectual responses mostly (the more analytical, ego-prone, part of the answer), while the symbolic part remains more connected to the cosmic forces or whatever may govern it (the big images that seem to be just what we needed to get). In the very end, I think all the philosophical system of the lines and trigrams must be discarded, it may structure our thought to a point, but eventually we have to let it go and just focus on the deepest images.

End quote

I agree with you here Pedro, that underneath all the words and thoughts lies the more central force. By developing a personal relationship with the symbols, directly, outside of any 'priesthood' or translation we somehow move towards this central force.
To me the symbols are the 'keys' or gateways to new levels of understanding. I believe that why they are so fascinating is that they are somehow outside time. They are like the trees in the forest, with us flying around from branch to branch like birds.
To me the Yi, its symbols and everything written about it, is a big lesson in 'time'. It uses eternal images and extended commentary to teach me how to deal with change or time and space. By learning about time, we may one day master it, and move to a more' fifth dimensional' understanding and existence.
The Yi is then not a 'spiritual' document , its a manual,
a friend. By allowing the Yi to guide me through the realities of 3d existence, I then have time to look beyond the mire and dream.
 

chrislofting

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HI Martin,

you wrote:
> Hi Chris,
>
> You wrote:
> "Our minds, ignorant of our species-nature, will then create
> a story about being 'guided' etc by invisible beings etc."
>
> Implying that there are no invisible beings and so on,
> right?

not necessarily - what it means is there in no *need* for the concept of 'invisible beings' to describe the sensations, the sensations can be described by understanding how the neurocognitive processes work ;-)

Chris.
 

davidl

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Chris,
A human being sees about 2% of the light spectrum. Doesn't that make the other 98% invisible to the human brain ?

So if we cant see it, it doesn't exist, and we don't need it.
What a clever little species we are.

When people talk about being guided by invisible beings, they can also be talking about being guided by the light that shines from our mother galaxy. The creative force.

The invisible force that gave you life.
 

cal val

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Harmen...

Thank you so much for taking the time to do this translation for me.

"willfully cast aside misuse wouldn't be unfortunate." I don't understand the syntax of this line. All I know is I burst into tears when I read it. I'm being willfully cast aside, and God it hurts. It's an effort of will...in defiance of what the heart feels...and wants. He calls it wearing his "practical" hat. His "practical" hat is dooming him to a mediocre, lifeless, loveless existence...and me too. And I'm hurt and angry. If I could get hold of that hat, I would rip it to shreds and burn it and then scatter its ashes over the ocean for them to sink to the bottom where he couldn't go to retrieve them and revive it.

I had a very disturbing nightmare night before last that woke me up at a quarter to 3. It was violent. And I knew it was deeper parts of me expressing anger about moving to LA...about my family having moved from the East Coast to LA. I have to move to LA. I have no choice. But it might be different if I weren't being willfully cast aside...no...it would be different. I DO NOT WANT to live in LA. I want to live on the East Coast. But I do not want to be alone any more. I want to be where the love is. I want someone to watch over me. I hate that it's my daughter, and I accept that I set up myself for it. But I'm getting old. My peers are starting to die of strokes and heart attacks, and I could be next. I do not want to be alone when it happens.

The window of opportunity to make the move (and escape the danger) is opening right now, and I have to jump through it, or I will not survive. It already started yesterday at work. The division head tried to cut back my hours this coming week, but people who depend on my work appealed to him. He governs without reason, and it's that very fact I'm banking on to make my escape. As soon as he cuts my hours back, which could be the following week, I can file an unemployment claim and give notice on my apartment. I will probably be able to get out of here before the 1st of December. And my focus now is necessarily on the preparations and steps to take, one by one, to do that...and escape the danger. I have the eyes of a hungry tiger right now. My survival depends on it. It's not even about a destiny that could be if one man had the guts to live his dream any more. It's about survival now.

I know what the Shen Shu said probably has nothing to do with any of this...that the message is probably entirely different. This is just what bubbled to surface when I read it. This is what it tapped. Pain and anger that two people cannot achieve a destiny of great love and prosperity because one man doesn't have the freaking guts (trust in himself) to make a change. "...the spirit cannot fly with only one wing."

I also felt the Shen Shu was expressing my feeling about the Yi lately. It's not enough the Yi keeps telling me my destiny...and they do (I send my castings to "impartial judges" to be sure I'm not reading something into them, and they concur). I have to know it with my senses other than intuition. I have to see (his smile), hear (his voice), feel (our bodies become one when he holds me), touch (every inch of him), taste (his sweet skin), smell (his lingering scent on the pillow after he's left our bed in the morning). And I don't. Consequently, I've turned the volume down on the Yi. If I didn't have to focus on survival at the moment maybe I could go on listening indefinitely. But I do have to focus on survival and I can't.

So...I would be most appreciative if you or someone familiar with the symbolism behind the Eastern thought in this verse will help me understand what the Shen Shu has actually said.

Thank you.

Cheerio the noo,

Val
 

cal val

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Harmen...

Actually the not-so-odd coincidence is that I went to bed right after I played with the flash program, got verse 080 and decided not to bother with a translation...that's when I had the very disturbing nightmare. The next moring I was curious about what the verse said and if it had any connection to the nightmare...and I stayed curious all day.

Thanks again!

Cheerio the noo,

Val
 

chrislofting

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Davidl

you wrote:
>
> By Davidl (Davidl) on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 02:34 pm:
>
> Chris,
> A human being sees about 2% of the light spectrum. Doesn't
> that make the other 98% invisible to the human brain ?
>
> So if we cant see it, it doesn't exist, and we don't need
> it.
> What a clever little species we are.
>

If you had bothered to read things in full you would have come across my statement re the development of instruments that serve to extend our senses. Our consciousness does that and as such makes the full spectrum available to us - all derived from good hard work in Sciences ;-)

Chris.
 

louise

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Tell me what scientific instrument enables dialogue with the deceased Chris ? And if you think such dialogue impossible - since it is not scientific, then thats your limitation. Science, science, science, useful, interesting even, gives us something but will NEVER NEVER give us everything. Science fulfills my soul not one iota.
 

louise

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Ooops sorry I forgot I don't have a soul I'm just a bunch of neurons.
 

martin

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Well, that is what sometimes happens in science.
"We don't need it for our explanations so it doesn't exist."
Err, error! Bad science!

A correct application of the so called Occam's razor is for example "We don't need it for our explanations so we will not use it".
There is no conclusion about existence or nonexistence in that.

The fact that I don't need to assume that I have a soul to explain why tears are rolling down my cheeks at this very moment (I peeled an onion!) doesn't imply that I have no soul!
 

chrislofting

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Louise,

you wrote:
> By Louise (Louise) on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 07:54 pm:
>
> Tell me what scientific instrument enables dialogue with
> the deceased Chris ? And if you think such dialogue
> impossible - since it is not scientific, then thats your
> limitation. Science, science, science, useful, interesting
> even, gives us something but will NEVER NEVER give us
> everything.

the role of Science is to solve problems, to ask an answer questions. simple. That means to be able to predict events based on past events and so focus on what is repeatible. It also means a focus on dispelling illusions and if you had read the prose I have sent to this thread without your anti-science blinkers on you would have read how Science can create delusions itself based on a lack of understanding of our physiology, just as non-Scientific perspectives, ignorant of our species-nature, create stories such as covered in http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/angels.html Science as such evolves ;-)

The advantage of Science over non-Science is in its self-correcting nature, more so it preparedness, willingness, to correct. The focus is on asking questions rather than taking things based on faith. Coming up with research data that is then peer reviewed and then, if accepted, is published for others to try and repeat and so validate (the repeatition is preferred to be through trying to negate the results, to prove the data WRONG. failure to do so acts to validate the data). You wont see that in any formal religous context in that the focus on fundamentalism etc is to NOT ask questions, to work of blind faith.

As such Science questions itself (which is what I have done in a lot of my prose in that I focus on what is POSSIBLE given our neurocognitive processes and that includes how Science perceives reality and can be 'blinded' by its own models - can try to close-off too soon or rationalise with little information to support that rationalisation)

> Science fulfills my soul not one iota.
>

It is interesting that you have said that to me in that without the internet, all based on applying findings of Science etc, we would not even be aware of each other let alone communicate ;-)

There is a fundamental distinction in our being between spirit and soul. Your spirit stems from your consciousness, your soul from your speciesness and as such your 'collective unconscious' - the realm of basic archetypes that are being revealed through applying scientific methods in research on such concepts. Science focuses a lot on our speciesness at the moment and is developing into issues of our consciousness. That is what Science is about, the precise, clear, analysis of soma and psyche to get a better idea as to what we are about and how we can improve things and that includes ourselves. To benefit all members of the species the data has to be clear and repeatible to be useful.

Our consciousness is more rooted in the realm of transcendence than transformation where in the latter the core remains constant and the exterior adapts to context, whereas in the former the core itself can change, can 'transcend' the current context. That 'drive' stems from the mindless activities of neurons where that activity can create behavioural patterns of the group not identifiably expressed in any individual - its called 'flocking behaviour'. That behaviour has been identified using the properties and methods of Science. simple. no waving of hands, no teleological activity, just simple dynamics that lead to complex systems.

Science is a product of our being, it is part of us, not only as a species but also as individuals, deductive reasoning is hard-coded into your brain (see abstract at the end of this post) but if you choose not to use it consciously that is not my problem, that is your choice ;-).

Perhaps what disturbs you more is the Institution of Science, now THAT has some 'issues' in that it is just as fundamentalist, just as dogmatic, as any religious fundamentalism but then you are dealing with people and so the Institution will attract certain types and be rejected by other types - all predictable by categories derived 'scientifically' ;-) The 'passive-aggressive' nature of many in Science means that, challenged to build the most destructive weapon of all times they will accept the challenge but take no responsibility for the consequences.

It is more so those lacking in Science education etc that USE the products of Science to satisfy their need for power (and so AK-47s abound in fundamentalist religous groups who prefer the 'immediate' gratification of such weapons rather than the 'delayed' gratification of 'destroying' someone in an academic journal! ;-) - Science as such can be 'peaceful' at the soma level, 'competitive' at the psyche level but then it makes the distinction of soma/psyche and so recognises you dont need to kill a body to kill a mind ;-) -- and minds are changeable)

I have stated in this thread (and in the above link re angels) that the lack of knowledge re how we as a species function leads to the *natural* creation of rationalisations based on the knowledge of the times and that has ment taking reported experiences of individuals, as in feeling pushed, guided etc and coming up with some model. In the past these feelings have been associated with 'invisible' beings, be they demons or angels etc. and over thousands of years of lack of knowledge re 'in here' has developed a universe of the 'spiritual'.

Science has revealed a source of these feelings that is inside of us - where our adaptation to context, so strongly rooted in our species integrating with the Universe, leads to habit/instinct formations that allow the context to PUSH us. That activity, that sensitivity to minute detail change in a context, is strongly expressed using such drugs as cocaine or speed where the introduction of the slightest difference into the context can switch an exaggerated sense of power and of general positive feeling into the darkest of fears and so paranoia.

The revelation of context setting-off filters in our input areas means there is no NEED for the 'invisible beings' concept to describe what is going on when you 'feel' as if something or some 'invisible being' is guiding you in some way. This does not say 'there are NO such beings etc', all it says is that there is no NEED for such concepts to be used to describe what is happening.

We must also consider such findings as temporal lobe thunderstorms eliciting images in our brains that our mind, ignorant as to what is going on, believes to be 'god' etc and so goes through a 'spontaneous conversion' - a common activity in those who experience these electrical thunderstorms in those areas of our brains that process images, objects (as well as voices etc)

We must consider the activity of low frequency sound that can elicit a resonance within us where our low frequencies are set-off. The point being that our low frequencies correlate with our sense of fear such that areas that do not absorb such frequencies can elicit a sense of fear in us, can push our species-nature buttons, and from there allow us to imagine all sorts of things going on (and that includes a sense of the 'spooky' etc etc)

We must consider the activities in areas of the neocortex, again related to electrical thunderstorms in the form of epilepsy, where we sense an Out-Of-Body experience. Our MINDS, ignorant as to what is going on, will rationalise these experiences and come up with all sorts of stories.

We must consider that, on approaching death, the brain is starved of oxygen and the neurons start to fire 'randomly'. This firing will create a summed sensation of a tunnel at the 'end' of which is what appears to be light. NOT knowing this side-effect of dying means our minds can create all sorts of stories re what is happening and if they do not die then write about the experience as if it supports some 'spiritual' realm. It doesnt support such a concept and as such cannot be used as an example of such a realm. simple. It does not REJECT such a realm, just adds doubt to its existence based on the 'facts' in that there in no NEED for such a realm to be asserted as the reason for the tunnel and light experience.

ALL of this sort of material, derived from empirical analysis, has to be considered when reviewing the nature of soma and psyche and this material is only of recent finding. IOW the neurosciences, cognitive sciences, and psychology are introducing as new paradigm re understand our Universe and ourselves and that paradigm will, is, causing some 'issues' re the realm of the spiritual.

That said, there is some interesting observations re mental states 'resonating' across members of the species (in particular identical twins) that, when combined with observations on crystals, pure-bred lab rats, and cancer cells, leads to the suggestion of some form of 'purity' (and so spirit oriented, a focus on 'transcendence' and 'purity' etc) that enables some form of resonance and so shared experiences without the use of words etc to communicate. This is all stuff that requires research and careful mapping of the details (some is planned re identical twins using 'Faraday' cages to block any form of electromagnetic communications combined with brain scanners to detect any 'resonance' that reflects communications.)

So.. your sweeping generalisation re Science needs, IMHO, review. ;-)

Chris.

--------ABSTRACT ON HARD-CODING OF DEDUCTIVE REASONING-------------
Cerebral Cortex, Vol. 11, No. 10, 954-965, October 2001
© 2001 Oxford University Press

New Evidence for Distinct Right and Left Brain Systems for Deductive versus Probabilistic Reasoning
Lawrence M. Parsons and Daniel Osherson1
University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio, San Antonio, TX and
1 Rice University, Houston, TX, USA

Lawrence M. Parsons, Director, Cognitive Neuroscience Program, Division of Behavioral and Cognitive Sciences, Directorate for Social, Behavioral, and Economic Sciences, National Science Foundation, 4201 Wilson Boulevard, Arlington, VA 22230, USA.

Deductive and probabilistic reasoning are central to cognition but the functional neuroanatomy underlying them is poorly understood. The present study contrasted these two kinds of reasoning via positron emission tomography. Relying on changes in instruction and psychological ?set?, deductive versus probabilistic reasoning was induced using identical stimuli. The stimuli were arguments in propositional calculus not readily solved via mental diagrams. Probabilistic reasoning activated mostly left brain areas whereas deductive activated mostly right. Deduction activated areas near right brain homologues of left language areas in middle temporal lobe, inferior frontal cortex and basal ganglia, as well as right amygdala, but not spatial?visual areas. Right hemisphere activations in the deduction task cannot be explained by spill-over from overtaxed, left language areas. Probabilistic reasoning was mostly associated with left hemispheric areas in inferior frontal, posterior cingulate, parahippocampal, medial temporal, and superior and medial prefrontal cortices. The foregoing regions are implicated in recalling and evaluating a range of world knowledge, operations required during probabilistic thought. The findings confirm that deduction and induction are distinct processes, consistent with psychological theories enforcing their partial separation. The results also suggest that, except for statement decoding, deduction is largely independent of language, and that some forms of logical thinking are non-diagrammatic.

ALSO SEE:

Oaksford, M., and Chater, N., (2001) "The probabilistic approach to human reasoning" IN Trends in Cognitive Sciences Vol 5. No8 August 2001: 349-357
(published PRIOR to the above) From the intro:
"In a standard reasoning task, performance is compared with the inferences people should make according to logic, so a judgement can be made on the rationality of people's reasoning. It has been found that people make large and systematic (i.e. non-random) errors, which suggests that humans might be irrational. However, the probabilistic approach argues against this interpretation" (p349)
 

chrislofting

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Louise,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: I Ching Community Discussion Forum
> [mailto:support@onlineClarity.co.uk]
> Sent: Sunday, 12 October 2003 4:59 AM
> To: ddiamond@ozemail.com.au
> Subject: Shen shu?
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> I Ching Community Discussion Forum: Open Space: Shen shu?
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> By Louise (Louise) on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 07:59 pm:
>
> how pointless is my world without my soul
>


It is not your soul that makes the point, it is your spirit that does that. Your soul reflects integration as a species-member and as such lack the 'pointedness' in precision of your spirit. Our souls are molded by instincts/habits of species, collectives, genetic 'anomolies' of the individual and all is unconscious, GENERAL and as such, from your consciousness perspective IS felt as if 'pointless'. look forward, not back.

USE the knowledge of the 'back' to guide in developing 'forward' ;-) - the spirit emerges from the FIELD of the soul, like a flower emerging from the grass and earth and so the bedrock. Neurons, hormones, neurocognitive dynamics are the BEDROCK from which YOU emerge but that bedrock also needs feedback to keepup with the flowering! ;-) - since it supples nutrient so it needs to be maintained not rejected.

That is what the IDM material, and so the I Ching, can do in aiding development. As such you have the skills to 'make' your world ;-) (e.g. see the I Ching affirmations page - http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/icproact.html )

Chris.
 

cal val

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Dear Chris...

Albert Einstein believed in God.

There remains something subtle, intangible and inexplicable. Veneration for this force beyond anything that we can comprehend is my religion.
--Albert Einstein

Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.
--Albert Einstein

Quantum mechanics is very impressive. But an inner voice tells me that it is not yet the real thing. The theory yields a lot, but it hardly brings us any closer to the secret of the Old One. In any case I am convinced that He doesn't play dice.
--Albert Einstein

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
--Albert Einstein

Love,

Val
 

hilary

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Hi Val,

Good quotes!

I'm not sure, but I don't think Chris has actually said anything unambiguously to the effect that he doesn't, personally, agree with all the above.

Could Harmen's Shen Shu translation be relevant to any of this?
 

chrislofting

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Hi Val,

you wrote:
> Dear Chris...
>
> Albert Einstein believed in God.
>
> There remains something subtle, intangible and inexplicable.
> Veneration for this force beyond anything that we can
> comprehend is my religion.
> --Albert Einstein
>
> Human beings, vegetables, or comic dust, we all dance to a
> mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible
> player.
> --Albert Einstein
>
> Quantum mechanics is very impressive. But an inner voice
> tells me that it is not yet the real thing. The theory
> yields a lot, but it hardly brings us any closer to the
> secret of the Old One. In any case I am convinced that He
> doesn't play dice.
> --Albert Einstein
>
> Science without religion is lame, religion without science
> is blind.
> --Albert Einstein
>

These are fine but must be taken in context. Firstly he was confusing religion with faith. Faith is singlemindedness as well as dualmindedness, it is yang as well as yin. You find both concepts operating within the SPECIALISATIONS of religion and science.

Einstein and the physicists of his time had no idea how 'in here' works such that the QM guys came up with all sorts of 'funnies' to try and describe reality from a position of ignorence re species-nature perspectives vs consciousness-nature perspectives. The issues have been with the *interpretations* of the data, not the data itself. (gets into concepts covered in my page on paradox - http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/paradox.html)

Einstein picked up this issue intuitively as in the above statement you quote of his about QM but his statements must be taken in the context of his times rather than as universals and so seemingly 'timeless' ;-) - his times included a rigid imposing of Christian and Jewish schooling throughout Europe and a lack of information re how we derive meaning.

Faith is:

(a) Absolute, total trust in, total devotion to, yourself such that you set the context, differentiate. Gets into charismatic persona types.

(b) Absolute, total trust in, total devotion to, another/others such that you integrate with their context.

Faith can be 'delusional' at times but also can aid in keeping you going in adversity. Faith can move mountains but it is the faithful who do the moving, no outside help required. Also reflects the 'placebo effect' ;-)

(a) is leading - hexagram 01, (b) is following - hexagram 02. Elements of (a) in (b) are expressed as leadership through management - lead from behind rather than from the front ;-) etc etc If you want the full map, (a) is yang, (b) is yin and the whole of the binary sequence of the I Ching is there to aid you in fleshing out the differences/samenesses ;-)

Note that blind faith is too positive and so unacceptable for Science where we need negation to identify things.

The IDM analysis of the 'wave/particle' duality issue shows that the issue stems from confusions of perspectives where our consciousness is OVER precise, is one step removed from our species-nature. The species-nature interacts with reality in an integrated way, through instincts/habits and so a NON-LOCAL perspective is in all is balanced, symmetric, integrated, WHOLE (A AND B). When viewed from the PARTS oriented, asymmetric, differentiating, perspective of our consciousness-nature, where reality appears to be LOCAL, A XOR B, paradox is guaranteed.

Einstein was not aware of these details, as most physicists etc arnt since they have not gone through the work IDM has done to uncover the source of meaning ;-) (nore could they in that our in-depth knowledge of 'in here' is only recent)

For QM issues see such pages as:

http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/bits.html
http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/vision.html
http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/svector.html

The roots of the sense of the spiritual seem to be in the form of instincts operating at the species-nature level that have been exaggerated. The original instincts were for protection of one in a collective and seem to focus on:

(a) each sensation is potentially meaningful
(b) all sensations are potentially linked together

These instincts work to protect you from becoming dinner for some other lifeform ;-)

Exaggerate these and (a) we drop the term 'potentially' and (b) we anthropomorphise in that if there is no measure we use ourselves as the measure. Combine that with a lack of knowledge about how 'in here' works and an industry based on EXPLOITING these instincts etc will emerge - as it has done into the many religions we have. (note that the exploit/protect dichotomy is a fundamental of our neurology etc - reflecting the differentiate/integrate dynamic behind all of these dichotomies)

The core faith therefore is in your species. We are all 'one' and within the one are many but focusing upon, teaching the core concepts of, our species-nature can perhaps 'ground' things and so reduce the extremes we have at the moment. Your species is your 'home', all else is 'illusion' but sometimes LOCALLY useful ;-)

Out of that speciesness we are developing consciousness but we have some way to go! ;-)

Chris.
 
H

hmesker

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<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

"willfully cast aside misuse wouldn't be unfortunate." I don't understand the syntax of this line. All I know is I burst into tears when I read it.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>Hi Val,

It seems the verse of the Shen Shu triggered something. I am sorry to hear about the situation you are in, it must be very difficult to face changes you don't want to happen. You say that the verse of the Shen Shu probably has nothing to do with this, but I think it does. Unfortunately I am not much of an interpreter, my skills are more on the technical side. But I will do my best.

Although the commentary was a major trigger for you, I would like to focus on the actual text of the Shen Shu:

"The wood is exposed to the sun when the spring opens up
The tripple yin however hides its roots
The woodcutter does not know this
He cuts away to make firewood."

The situation described here is the coming of spring, when things start growing and the yin forces are drawn back. The sentence "The tripple yin hides its roots" has two meanings: first, it means that the yin force hides its origin, making it harder to notice when the yang comes up. Secondly, the tripple yin - the (trigram) Earth - hides the roots of the wood, which is necesarry for a tree to grow. The overall image of the first two sentences is that of the spring starting to come, but it isn't yet visible to the human eye. But it is there.
The woodcutter doesn't know this. He needs the wood for his fire place, for cooking and warmth. He isn't concerned with the yang forces entering the wood.

The very overall meaning of this can be that, although situations are changing, you still have to do to what you consider best, what fits your situation best. It isn't always necessary to adapt completely to the changing situation, if the situation isn't bringing what you want. You are not a victim, you _can_ take matters in your own hands. Don't look at what you can't do, look at what you can do.

I am not sure at all if this is helpful to you. Maybe it is best to ask the Yijing what the verse of the Shen Shu means to you.

Best wishes,

Harmen.
 

heylise

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It seems my copy is different from Harmen's, so I add the text too. Two views might be clearer than one.

Shenshu verse 80:
In the beginning of spring the twigs sprout, but their roots are hidden in the triple yin.
But the woodcutters know nothing about that, and with their axes chop firewood.

Comment:
For the querent it is not clear what he is doing. Unaware he takes on anything which presents itself. He pretends to know all, but does not realize he knows much less than he thinks. He knows nothing about triple yin (earth, dark and cool).
If he wants an answer to his question, he should fathom what seems hidden, or in other words: he should find out the backgrounds. If he wants to continue with chopping (taking without adding), then a lasting result is not possible.

My own idea: do not do things which harm the possibilities for a living future.

LiSe
 
H

hmesker

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Hi LiSe,

My copy isn't different, it was just my own translation of verse 80. I think you gave an English translation of the Dutch translation of the German translation of the Chinese original, right?

:)

Harmen.
 

heylise

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Yes right.
I did it because the Chinese to German to Dutch seemed to give an slightly other aspect to it. So I thought Val could combine all
crazy.gif
, and find out what fits best.
LiSe
 

joang

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Hello, Friends.

I is there a site where I can get an English translation for 034? I just read this thread in its entirety, and did a trial consultation at the kimo.com site Pedro or Harmen suggested.

The question in my mind was: What question do I need to ask? The number 034 came up. Where do I go from there to understand the answer? My knowledge of Chinese and German is too meager and too rusty to help me much.

Namaste,
Joan
 

heylise

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Shenshu 34

The partial moon becomes big and round again,
withered branches get more color and freshness,
a strip of smooth and level road,
raise your head and gaze in the blue sky.

This one is not Chinese-German-Dutch-English, but straight from Chinese to English. A nice one.

LiSe
 

cal val

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Harmen...

Thank you again for this! I really appreciate it. I read it earlier and have been "turning it over" in my mind.

Lise...

Thank you. This certainly adds a new spin to it, doesn't it.

Well the Yi is quite clear I need to escape the danger. There is indeed imminent danger. Without going into details, all but the rich and retired here are very frightened at the moment. And the Yi has been supportive of my decisions thus far.

The Yi has also been keeping me focused on one step at a time.

My final destination...and focus...is love and family...and to me that is a living future.

Cheerio the noo,

Val
 

cal val

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Hi Hilary...

My reason for posting the Einstein quotes was merely to share with Chris and hear his thoughts on them if he had any...since both men are scientists.

And Chris' answer is as I suspected it would be.

Uh...Chris...you are a man aren't you...*gulp* All this time I've been thinking you are, but then when I think about it, Chris is an androgynous name.

Cheerio the noo,

Val
 

joang

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LiSe, thank you so much. That was great. Where, may I ask, do you get the Chinese to English translation?

This is my first experience with Shen shu, so I'm not sure I'm going about it in the right way. The first three lines of the verse you posted seem to point to particular lines in W/B's I Ching. The moon that is nearly full occurs in the top line of hex 9, the fifth line of hex 54, and the fourth line of hex 61. The withered branch (poplar) occurs in the second and fifth lines of hex 28. The smooth and level course, or road, occurs only in the second line of hex 10, I believe. As yet, I haven't found any W/B correlation with the fourth line of your verse, "raise your head and gaze in the blue sky." And so far, I haven't arrived at the answer to my question, "what question do I need to ask," but that may come as I reflect upon the lines some more. Maybe I should visit your 'moon' web site, huh? What is the URL?

Meanwhile, I would welcome and appreciate any thoughts, suggestions, interpretations you or anyone else here might care to offer.

It occurs to me, that for someone who doesn't know what question to ask, I sure have asked a lot of questions, haven't I? :)

namaste,
Joan
 

martin

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"raise your head and gaze in the blue sky"
And the mind is empty.
No questions ...
 

chrislofting

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Hi Val,

you wrote:
>
> Hi Hilary...
>
> My reason for posting the Einstein quotes was merely to
> share with Chris and hear his thoughts on them if he had
> any...since both men are scientists.
>
> And Chris' answer is as I suspected it would be.
>

shock horror! it was predictable!?

> Uh...Chris...you are a man aren't you...*gulp* All this time
> I've been thinking you are, but then when I think about it,
> Chris is an androgynous name.
>

:) you should read my IDM material re the androgyne

I am: Male. 53. divorced. one daughter (19). ex rock musician (many moons ago), analyst/programmer (out of work ;-()

Chris.
 

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