Should I apply for this job? Hex 53.2.3.6>29

[MrKind]

There is a position opening at a different job where two of my past colleagues work. They can recommend me, so therefore increase my chances. The position fits my experience, the salary would be significantly biggerbut it will produce a good amount of stress [especially at the beginning]I asked whether I should apply and received

Hex 53.2.3.6>29

So as 53 means progress, that would point towards something good however De Korne interprets line 3 as a ''fruitless endeavour'' (B. Arid speculation abandons its foundation in basic reality. You waste your energy on illusions – -- nothing will come of it. ,D. You’re blowing energy on a fruitless endeavor.). Also there are very bad sounding descirptions of changing lines in Hex 29 - Forest/Danger/Abbyss. I wonder why? My position at my current work is stagnant but stable - both with management and the team. Money wise it is okay (of course it would be nice to have more money due to uncertain rental situation in this city). But I wonder whether additional stress or maybe the nature of work (target driven and rather stresful) would be a good choice for me now.. maybe this is what I Ching is trying to tell me. That it would be better to avoid it?I also asked if I should NOT apply for this position and stay at my current workplace? Received

Hex 55.4>36

So, in one of the desriptions I read that this result can help me recognize my own ''shadow'' - is this ''shadow'' my own fear from facing new big challenges and thus, choosing pleasant stagnation? But is it stagnation if I use those conditions to slowly progress in my life, step by step?What do you guys think? (yes, even you Trojina I might have really misunderstood your understanding of my sentence ''to wind him up'' - as this sentence has completely diff meanings in the US and in Ireland. Accept my apologies.

 

[MrKind]

just a short update on this guys, I have decided to go on with this chance especially that one high profile manager recommended me personally... one loses 100% chances one doesn't take, right? So yes, I already feel tense around my heart but I will give it a try. If I am to ever heal some wounds caused by stressful job in the past - why not now? However the above castings are still very obscure to me.

 

[MrKind]

And I'm only worried about my health this job has description of being a contact centre including in bound phone calls from clients and my heart was ruined by working in a call center before.. Maybe I was too quick to send the application without full understanding what's the position I'm applying for and I wasted this referral (they would do it for any position..) and maybe thus is what Oracle means by saying "fruitless endeavour" and that nothing will come out of it because I won't risk my health again..

 

[Trojina]

And I'm only worried about my health this job has description of being a contact centre including in bound phone calls from clients and my heart was ruined by working in a call center before.. Maybe I was too quick to send the application without full understanding what's the position I'm applying for and I wasted this referral (they would do it for any position..) and maybe thus is what Oracle means by saying "fruitless endeavour" and that nothing will come out of it because I won't risk my health again..

The Oracle has not said 'fruitless endeavour' James de Korne has in a commentary.


You do know the difference between the translation, what Yi says, and a commentary ?


A commentary is someone's ideas about what the translation says.



But because a commentary it is not actually what the translations says then you don't hang your whole interpretation on it. That is a common mistake.


It would be like me saying '28.4 means 'you carry too much' and then someone coming along, reading my commentary as if it were what the I Ching actually says and going 'OMG what am I carrying'. Well it doesn't say anything about carrying, those words would be my attempt to explain the line.


A commentary can assist at times for sure but as soon as people take one line out of a commentary and then hook everything on that they are totally lost.



This is a very important point to take on board for Yi interpretation. If you don't then your Oracle will be de Korne or whoever else you happen to read not the I Ching.



This is what the I Ching says for 53.3. It is a translation (Hilary's) not a commentary


'The wild geese gradually advance to the high plateau.
The husband marches out and does not return;
The wife is pregnant, but does not raise the child;
Pitfall.
Harvest in resisting outlaws.’'

I'm applying for and I wasted this referral (they would do it for any position..) and maybe thus is what Oracle means by saying "fruitless endeavour" and that nothing will come out of it because I won't risk my health again

The line might refer to a fruitless endeavour sometimes when a person neglects their duty or does not pay due care and attention (note this is my commentary, my words about the line not the actual line itself).


But note the last line 'harvest in resisting outlaws'. The idea is if the home is not cared for, husband not there, so wife can't carry full term and then the home is open to robbers it's bad news. But if one looks after things, resists robbers of all kinds, then there is harvest.



So this

I'm applying for and I wasted this referral (they would do it for any position..) and maybe thus is what Oracle means by saying "fruitless endeavour" and that nothing will come out of it because I won't risk my health again

...is a mistaken attitude. Answers really are not generally hard predictions especially when there are many lines plus the context.


Have you thought of doing the Foundations Course in order to learn interpretation skills ?



Your question

should I apply for this job? Hex 53.2.3.6>29

Well practically there is never any harm in applying. Even if you are offered it you don't have to take it. If you don't apply you erase even the opportunity. That's common sense.


My sense is the answer might be seen a number of ways as line 6 shows going beyond a situation entirely. That might be your current job OR it might be you decide to skip this opportunity.

The progress of the application or the circumstances around it look slow, bound by due procedures etc (53) and this very slowness of the progress plunges you again in to familiar feelings of uncertainty (29).


You have 3 change lines and they say different things and in each the goose is at a different stage of the journey. Ask yourself what is this slow journey here ? Shall we take it as the application itself ? Or shall we take it as your general journey in the realm of your career ? I can't be sure since I'm not you. I'm going to take it as a picture of the application since you have done it already. Also 53 does often refer to the processing of things in bureaucracy since, like a courtship all things are done in the correct order.


In line 2 there is rest and pleasure on the journey. In line 3 a rather unhospitable place is reached when the goose reaches the high plateau. In line 6 the goose flies away to a whole new place. As a backdrop to this quest there is 29. This doesn't feel safe, it feels risky and yet if one 'holds the heart fast' and stays focused one can get through


That's the story of your question. You are worried about line 3 in particular so what might it mean in relation to your question ?


Well if you notice any sense of despair, a sense of wanting to give up, of feeling you cannot be bothered these are the outlaws to resist. Put yourself in the line and imagine what it's like to be there on that high plateau where no one is really paying enough due care and attention to protecting their home and their life. How might that be a factor in this situation you ask about ?



I don't know for sure that's for you to delve into. One thing you don't want to do is imagine this line is some kind of unalterable pronouncement of the future because that attitude is like an outlaw, it robs you.




Practically then you have applied and await the outcome. If you get invited to an interview you can decide then if you want it or not. Don't close down to it before you even have the interview. This opportunity might take you out of your work current situation (53.6). It may be you pass it by (also 53.6) but in any case there is no harm going to the interview and seeing how you feel about the place.


Line 3 does warn about taking due care, being conscientious in all things, definitely not having a 'laissez faire' attitude, nor giving up.


If it were my reading I might be looking for ways to prepare for interview as if you get one you certainly don't want to give any impression of being too casual/slapdash, I'm thinking of line 3 here.

 

[Trojina]

The frustrating thing (generally speaking not aimed at Mr Kind in particular) is people use these websites that have no back up forum, become confused then hop over here so we can help with the confusing mass of commentary and wotnot they got on these sites.


To be fair looking at de Korne's site the 'fruitless endeavour' is under 'notes and paraphrases' it isn't claiming to be a translation though quite frankly I think people here would do far better to pay £1 a month or more and use WikiWing.


It is frustrating that people look at this

NOTES AND PARAPHRASES
Siu: The man goes too far and plunges into struggles beyond what is required by the natural laws of development. He loses his way. His life and family are jeopardized. He will regain his advantage if he does not provoke conflicts but uses his strength more in guarding his own position in line with his available resources and capabilities.
Wing: If you provoke a conflict or make a bold and forceful advance, you will place yourself and those close to you in danger. This is a foolish risk indeed. You would be much wiser to allow things to develop naturally and, instead, secure what you have.
Editor: This is an image of an aborted synthesis: we see Gradual Progress halted and dissipated in fruitless stagnation. Goose: Sensation and emotion under the influence of thought. Dry Plains: Infertile prospects: an area of futile speculation or endeavor. Wilhelm's rendering of "plateau" emphasizes a horizontal rather than vertical orientation -- reinforcing the image of no increase, no progress. Husband and wife: Union of thought and feeling, intellect and emotion. Child: The product, the ongoing evolution of thought and feeling within the psyche. Plunderers: Divisive, disruptive elements which bring about the separation of what is united. This estrangement brings a halt to the progress of the Work. Ritsema/ Karcher’s “Radiance flocking demons indeed” can represent inner complexes, phobias, compulsions, etc. The best course is to re-organize and defend yourself against further loss. Siu’s paraphrase says it best.
Thus [the patient] is still in an undesirably passive condition where everything is rather uncertain and questionable; neither he nor I know the journey's end. Often it is not much more than a groping about in Egyptian darkness. In this condition we must not expect any very startling results -- the uncertainty is too great for that. Besides which there is always the risk that what we have woven by day the night will unravel. The danger is that nothing is achieved, that nothing remains fixed.
Jung -- The Practice of Psychotherapy
A. Image of a stalemate caused by unbalanced forces of some sort – perhaps a severely limiting belief. Withdraw support from this indulgence!
B. Arid speculation abandons its foundation in basic reality. You waste your energy on illusions – -- nothing will come of it.
C. Logos departs, Eros aborts -- defend the Work.
D. You’re blowing energy on a fruitless endeavor.

...which is simply a conglomeration of notes, take it that it has an authority of some kind, take it that one small note about 'fruitless endeavour' is the central point of the line, and then come here for us to explain it.



Something's up with that order of things @hilary;


Come to think of it that order of things is quite 53.3 ish

I think there the robbers are the multifarious websites which offer no forum support/interactive support or teaching but obviously come up high on search engines or something. So having gleaned a bunch of often false information people then use this website to mop up the spillage, so to speak, for free.

 

[MrKind]

You've made a lot of good points here. Yes you are correct, I (or others, too I assume) dedicate too much attention to the commentaries sometimes. Need to work on that. Regarding the question, I will of course go for the interview and all that. See the main thing that caused me to quit my job several years ago was a constant stress (it was a banking call center sort of thing) and this ruined my heart health... then after a long break trying to recover, had one intermediary job in a warehouse and then the one I have now which is stress-less back office for a social media company. No phones or anything. The one I applied now does have clients who paid for service, in bound phone calls , targets and a significant amount of stress I can suspect... It was my mistake to first show my interest to the people I know who are working there on diff position (to get their referral) instead of reading the small print.

That's the story of your question. You are worried about line 3 in particular so what might it mean in relation to your question ?

Yes, thats the thing. I don't know what the robbers might represent - I live a very balanced healthy life. I also noticed the different versions of the geese stories. It is said that with 3 changing lines the middle one is the most important? And it sounds the worst [the two others are actually very positive in this Hex]. But then again, Hex 29 doesnt sound positive at all. " Wilhelm/Baynes: Forward and backward, abyss on abyss. In danger like this, pause at first and wait, otherwise you will fall into a pit in the abyss. Do not act in this way. Blofeld: Abyss upon abyss rears up and the danger is acute. He falls into a cranny and there is nothing he can do to help himself. Liu: Water flows on and on. One is in the pit of the abyss. Danger. Do not act." I really don't know but my only and main concern is whether my health can hold up to the prolonged stress? No amount of money is worth more than my own health and I don't want to repeat a mistake I did years ago (by going to that banking call center job.)Today I asked I Ching "If I will start working on that position I applied for, would my health hold up and I will manage my stress levels?" and received Hex 61.5>41

 

[MrKind]

"If I will start working on that position I applied for, would my health hold up and I will manage my stress levels?" Hex 61.5>41

So Line-5

"Legge: The fifth line, dynamic, shows its subject perfectly sincere, and linking others to him in closest union. There will be no error. Wilhelm/Baynes: He possesses truth, which links together. No blame. Blofeld: He seems to be pulled forward by his confidence in what he is doing -- no error!"

and Line-5 from Hex 41

"Legge: The fifth line, magnetic, shows parties adding to the stores of its subject ten pairs of tortoise shells, and accepting no refusal. There will be great good fortune. Wilhelm/Baynes: Someone does indeed increase him. Ten pairs of tortoises cannot oppose it. Supreme good fortune."

So this sounds much more optimistic to me somehow.

 

[Trojina]

Yes, thats the thing. I don't know what the robbers might represent - I live a very balanced healthy life. I also noticed the different versions of the geese stories. It is said that with 3 changing lines the middle one is the most important? And it sounds the worst [the two others are actually very positive in this Hex].

Again, I don't know who or why says the middle lines matters most with 3 change lines but I see no reason for such a rule at all. More and more people come here saying things like this which is such a pity given we have excellent learning materials available here.


Another common trap you are falling into also is thinking in terms of positive and negative andnothing else. An answer like this is very nuanced as it would be in normal conversation. For example you say to a friend


'Do you reckon I should do this job ?'


Friend doesn't say 'bad' or 'good' instead he might say something like 'well it depends what your long term goals are (53) seems to me you are heading in a fairly coherent direction, albeit quite gradually (and by direction he doesn't mean one job but overall direction). However you can feel like you are treading water (29) feel a degree of upheaval and uncertainty and that isn't so good for you and yet it may be necessary for you to make this move. I wouldn't be too quick to discard any security of any kind that you do have though (53.3) etc etc".

But then again, Hex 29 doesnt sound positive at all. " Wilhelm/Baynes: Forward and backward, abyss on abyss. In danger like this, pause at first and wait, otherwise you will fall into a pit in the abyss. Do not act in this way. Blofeld: Abyss upon abyss rears up and the danger is acute. He falls into a cranny and there is nothing he can do to help himself. Liu: Water flows on and on. One is in the pit of the abyss. Danger. Do not act." I really don't know but my only and main concern is whether my health can hold up to the prolonged stress? No amount of money is worth more than my own health and I don't want to repeat a mistake I did years ago (by going to that banking call center job.)

Well 29 was the relating hexagram, it shows where you are now in relation to this. It might refer to health risks but I don't see it very much in relation to the 53. I really like 53.6 because one transcends the whole thing, transcends the problem whatever it is. I would see lines here as a progression so if anything I would see line 6 as the final place you can get to with this. I think either it allows you to fly entirely clear of your current role or you move beyond the need for the new job, maybe another job or something comes up ?

Today I asked I Ching "If I will start working on that position I applied for, would my health hold up and I will manage my stress levels?" and received Hex 61.5>41

Well this makes me think that when those you work for nurture you so that you can give of your best then everything is less stressful for you anyway.


High hopes for a call centre but they do vary a lot don't they ? I worked in a few some time ago, well a long time ago, and some seemed to be dreadful like prisons whilst others were quite happy places to be. Can't generalize I guess, so many different kinds and different roles within them.


Still you are thinking quite far ahead, and that creates stress. You don't yet know if you will even be selected for interview (?)so why not postpone worrying about how this job might be until when you know for sure you have the option of doing it ? The 29 can simply refer to your high stress levels now you know. I think that is more likely than it presaging stress for the future.

 

[MrKind]

Interview is quite certain due to that referral that was secured by a middle management from within the company. This is why I feel stupid by not reading the small print. Normally if I saw "inbound phone calls" I would just wait for some other position opening in that company that does not require working as a front liner... I was also thinking that maybe the ''robbers'' mentioned in the initial Hex might be some people I will end up working with gossiping about me getting the position unfairly (through that referral) The funniest thing is that I did not asked for it, I simply asked for advice on the interviews...

I think either it allows you to fly entirely clear of your current role or you move beyond the need for the new job, maybe another job or something comes up ?

Well if my landlords would decide to not sell the flat, then I could reconsider staying in my current job and just enjoy one more year of stability and fairly good salary (okay it requires me to save and cut short on some unnecessary stuff but thats only for the good as I dont spend money on worthless things/activities). Of course higher salary from that new work place would give me more freedom in regards to renting in this city.

Well 29 was the relating hexagram, it shows where you are now in relation to this.

Even funnier, in the past I heard that the first Hex you get is your present situation and the 2nd one is where you will end up if following the I Ching predictions... so many ways of interpretations.

 

[Trojina]

Interview is quite certain due to that referral that was secured by a middle management from within the company. This is why I feel stupid by not reading the small print. Normally if I saw "inbound phone calls" I would just wait for some other position opening in that company that does not require working as a front liner... I was also thinking that maybe the ''robbers'' mentioned in the initial Hex might be some people I will end up working with gossiping about me getting the position unfairly (through that referral)

Remember the line does not say 'robbers will come' it only says there is harvest in resisting them. Robbers can only come if the home is left, if the husband is gone. This is to do with abandoning responsibility for that which you should care for. It can be a very much 'not my problem' attitude Yi is warning against. Perhaps whatever you enter into enter in whole heartedly. I don't know but this is only one line. I also think robbers can be your own thoughts, any thing that puts you off or makes you abandon this. The idea is not to abandon this, have the interview and be all you can be in it.

Don't forget line 2 where there is relaxation and comradeship. This may be those friends who recommended you, assisting you to get free out of an old situation (line 6)

The funniest thing is that I did not asked for it, I simply asked for advice on the interviews... Well if my landlords would decide to not sell the flat, then I could reconsider staying in my current job and just enjoy one more year of stability and fairly good salary (okay it requires me to save and cut short on some unnecessary stuff but thats only for the good as I dont spend money on worthless things/activities). Of course higher salary from that new work place would give me more freedom in regards to renting in this city.

Well a significantly higher salary is a very good thing

Even funnier, in the past I heard that the first Hex you get is your present situation and the 2nd one is where you will end up if following the I Ching predictions... so many ways of interpretations.

That really doesn't work, you end up with nonsense, as explained in this blog post


https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2013/06/01/the-old-resulting-hexagram-conundrum/

 

[MrKind]

I've read the https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2013/06/01/the-old-resulting-hexagram-conundrum/ and someone in that topic also mentions that with three changing lines the middle one is the most important (middle way!) or when you have five - you check the one that's unchanging, and it all feels very intuitive... I don't agree that with 4 or 5 changing lines every line matters. It only makes the result chaotic. But I have different approach to this. As with every divination system, it is about the interface. I Ching is the interface that we use to communicate with our subconscious. So,

conscious mind - > I ching -> subconscious.

And this means that *there are no* fixed rules in itself... it means that for example if I had used the system with three lines changing - middle ones being the most significant one, and I've found out that during my castings the results were congruent with this method of reading, I adopt it and continue using it. Why? Because the LINK between my conscious and subconscious has been achieved and for *me* this way works and provides measurable results. But it might be slightly different for someone else. Just like I know what my subconscious is trying to tell me when I dream of my childhood home having a flood and electric sockets being faulty in the kitchen... but that is language of my own subconscious. It will probably mean entirely different things for everyone else - hope that does make sense. Same with asking questions. I don't need to ask "whether this job will be good for me?" because deep down intuitively I know that this is exactly the answer I am looking for when asking for "whether I should apply there". It's about this communication, this interface and learning of this language when one can really have intimate connection with the Oracle. It's only a tool, but ultimately we are only talking with ourselves.

 

[Trojina]

I've read the https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2013/06/01/the-old-resulting-hexagram-conundrum/ and someone in that topic also mentions that with three changing lines the middle one is the most important (middle way!) or when you have five - you check the one that's unchanging, and it all feels very intuitive...

You mean someone mentioned this in the comments ?


All these ways are ways people might choose to deal with multiple moving lines to attempt to make life a bit easier for themselves or they might find it works for them. However for a beginner to just start using these random methods is not a good idea. If you have a number of lines you have them for a reason, you don't have them so that one matters more.


Personally the more lines change the less emphasis I place on each one and the more I just look to the whole picture it gives.

I don't agree that with 4 or 5 changing lines every line matters. It only makes the result chaotic.

It doesn't really make it any more chaotic than having a conversation with several different strands or levels. When people can't cope with that and just want it to tell them 'what to do' they come up with all sorts of ways to narrow things down to one or two moving lines which effectively gags the answer.


There are many ways to read multiple moving lines, as a story or progression of events or sometimes different options within a situation. With 4 or 5 moving lines I'd probably pay less attention to each line than if there were just one line moving, I'd look at the whole picture the primary and relating make, however all those lines still have meaning and should be considered.

If someone relatively new to Yi starts off by lopping off bits of the answer to make things a bit more tidy they will lose a lot of the conversation in the process. In a sense they are insisting on talking to Yi in their terms rather than let Yi talk to them.

But I have different approach to this. As with every divination system, it is about the interface. I Ching is the interface that we use to communicate with our subconscious.

Well that's one approach to 'how it works', a relatively common one I think but it isn't mine. People have very different ideas about what they consult when they consult the I Ching and in effect it doesn't really matter what they believe they are consulting, it still works.

So, And this means that *there are no* fixed rules in itself... it means that for example if I had used the system with three lines changing - middle ones being the most significant one, and I've found out that during my castings the results were congruent with this method of reading, I adopt it and continue using it.

There are no fixed rules no. How could there be really. Having said that I do think there is information that is unhelpful for newbies such as fixed rules about only reading the line that doesn't change etc etc. I agree if a person finds such a method works for them over a period of time then why shouldn't they use it. As a starting point for working with the I Ching however it's not useful at all.


More and more people show up here having found some random rule or other on some website that offers no real help/support or teaching - hence often missing the point of their reading through wrong information really. Tragic as I said when we have a Foundations Course available that can provide a really firm solid base for growing interpretation skills. Having got that base a person is then equipped to make a choice about whether they want to muzzle Yi down to just the middle line mattering or some odd practice of reading the top line that doesn't change or wotnot but to start there isn't so great IMO.

Why? Because the LINK between my conscious and subconscious has been achieved and for *me* this way works and provides measurable results. But it might be slightly different for someone else.

Measurable results ? I don't think the I Ching is something that produces measurable results. Indeed I find the whole idea of Yi as giving 'results' too much a mechanical attitude to divination. I cannot relate to the idea of measurable results with the I Ching. I don't see Yi as any kind of 'tool' that is there to serve and to produce results,,,,all that misses the point of it altogether which is to talk to you.

I don't personally think the 'why' is due to any link between the conscious and subconscious I think it's just down to a person's individual relationship and process with the Oracle.


You aren't in control of what the Oracle says to you. Many of these methods of reducing relevant lines to read I see as a way to control what is said, to limit it. Likewise I think the idea one is answering oneself can be kind of attempt at control of the Oracle's mouth although many people do see Yi this way. It's as a legitimate way to see it as any other way though not one I subscribe to.

Just like I know what my subconscious is trying to tell me when I dream of my childhood home having a flood and electric sockets being faulty in the kitchen... but that is language of my own subconscious. It will probably mean entirely different things for everyone else - hope that does make sense.

It may be a bit like that but that's not the whole story. It's not the whole story because whilst an answer has to be understood within a context it still remains that answer. An answer doesn't change itself wholly in order to fit personal associations. If it did then we'd end up with any answer able to mean anything at all and that's not the case.

Same with asking questions. I don't need to ask "whether this job will be good for me?" because deep down intuitively I know that this is exactly the answer I am looking for when asking for "whether I should apply there". It's about this communication, this interface and learning of this language when one can really have intimate connection with the Oracle. It's only a tool, but ultimately we are only talking with ourselves.

Well as I said that's one model of how I Ching works it's not mine. I don't think it's a tool and I don't think you are talking to your subconscious either. I think you are tapping into a greater intelligence, not your subconscious, You can tell this when you get answers that shock you, that you don't expect, rude answers.

If you don't need to ask because you already know why ask ? Ah because you think it's a way to access your subconscious. But the subconscious is as easily tricked as the conscious, it isn't omniscient. Powerful in it's impact on our lives yes but not the font of all knowledge.

There's been many threads over the years in Exploring Divination about people's views on what they are consulting when they consult the I Ching and people have completely different ideas about it. Yet it doesn't matter what they think they are consulting because Yi responds anyway.


Edit. One way I think it's clear that we aren't simply speaking to our subconscious is we can at times be informed of things way beyond our personal sphere via the I Ching, things our subconscious has no inkling of, things way beyond the personal realm.

 

[MrKind]

You mean someone mentioned this in the comments ?

Yes

Measurable results ? I don't think the I Ching is something that produces measurable results. Indeed I find the whole idea of Yi as giving 'results' too much a mechanical attitude to divination. I cannot relate to the idea of measurable results with the I Ching. I don't see Yi as any kind of 'tool' that is there to serve and to produce results,,,,all that misses the point of it altogether which is to talk to you.

Measurable results, for myself. It's hard to explain. But I'll try. If I was going to overindulgence myself in alcohol, and asked I Ching whether this was to bring me a good time, I received a scalding answer sort of ''are you nuts? who you think you are? You've completely lost your way, you going to spoil the Work''. Ok? This sort of answer happens every time when I ask something like this, even when my conscious/ego and life situation / health is so perfect that I would cause no longterm harm to myself by doing this. But still I receive such answers. So, this is how I learned that I Ching is the real thing and the castings aren't some sort of random stuff that is only interpreted to match our question. But there is only one way to learn it: one has to start doing the castings and paying attention.

There are no fixed rules no. How could there be really. Having said that I do think there is information that is unhelpful for newbies such as fixed rules about only reading the line that doesn't change etc etc. I agree if a person finds such a method works for them over a period of time then why shouldn't they use it. As a starting point for working with the I Ching however it's not useful at all.

Agreed.

I don't think it's a tool and I don't think you are talking to your subconscious either. I think you are tapping into a greater intelligence, not your subconscious, You can tell this when you get answers that shock you, that you don't expect, rude answers.

Yes, I also agree. I don't want to go into too many details but actually for me my own subconscious is connected to the infinite divine source. So yes, I am communicating with myself - but everything is one/connected. So it is also communicating with the greater intelligence. If we call it God, Universe, Energy, infinite power of our subconscious mind, yellow banana or whatever - doesn't matter that much. language often creates confusion

 

[MrKind]

For example my friend believes that I Ching only produces answers ''reflecting'' our current state of mind - if I want to get drunk and I ask if this will be OK I will receive '' no no , this will be bad'' because ''deep down'' I know that this will be bad, no matter what. But this model doesn't fit the answers that were completely out of the ordinary and not in line with whatever my ego could want at any given moment [or even when I was certain that some way is better than the other]. However I must admit that the more emotionally stable, aligned and healthy my life is - the more I am able to see the clear middle way path I should be following to attain the greatest version of myself that I can become.

 

[MrKind]

A quick example - my work colleague invited me for BBQ this Saturday. There probably will be 2 people I had negative experiences [gossip, backstabbing, going silent and expecting me to always initiate contact etc] in the past in this job [they no longer work here] and of course alcohol. So I am pretty certain I should not go there. However, I Ching said that at this time it would be better for me to go! (Maybe to face my own fears regarding those people somehow?)

Should I go there this Saturday? Hex 11.1>46

Should I don't go there this Saturday? Hex 11.3>19

Isn't it funny I got the same Hex 11 in both options? PS. Of course I might also interpret this wrongly. I am now looking at the 1st Hex that I got, and the 2nd Hex as a relating one - depicting my current-situation, sort of. Hope that is correct.

 

[Trojina]

A quick example - my work colleague invited me for BBQ this Saturday. There probably will be 2 people I had negative experiences [gossip, backstabbing, going silent and expecting me to always initiate contact etc] in the past in this job [they no longer work here] and of course alcohol. So I am pretty certain I should not go there. However, I Ching said that at this time it would be better for me to go! (Maybe to face my own fears regarding those people somehow?)Isn't it funny I got the same Hex 11 in both options? PS. Of course I might also interpret this wrongly. I am now looking at the 1st Hex that I got, and the 2nd Hex as a relating one - depicting my current-situation, sort of. Hope that is correct.

Seems to me going to the BBQ puts you in the flow of things and enables you to make creative connections by which I mean connections that move your life forward, that bring change. In line one there are many connections just under the surface, things connected that you may not have suspected. 11.1 seems a very good line for networking, finding connections for the future and so on. Many unexpected things, small avenues for change, can come into one's life through casual conversations hence I think it would be a pity to miss the BBQ. I'm not saying there's going to be some kind of dramatic life changing event or anything like that but going clearly places you in the flow of life where you can make the beginnings of connections that flower later on. Hexagram 11 says something like 'the great arrive, the small depart' hence this isn't a time to be concerned for negative influences as everything is moving forward.


For not going you got 11.3>10 which is a kind of philosophical line of 'ah well some you win some you lose'. Feels very much like a shrug from Yi here. If you pass up this opportunity it's just one of those things. Actually as I write I now wonder if this is actually counsel to you on the thought of not going. I think it is telling you to take ups and down with more equanimity. The reason you weren't going was because of 2 people but I feel Yi is saying in the whole scheme of the great flow of 11 they really aren't important enough to stop you going and getting benefit from going.



So many times when I can't decide to go to something if I don't go I spend far too much time wondering how it might have been if I had gone. So now if unsure I tend just to go. The good thing about a BBQ is if you aren't enjoying it much it's quite easy to make excuses after an hour or so since it's acceptable generally to drop in to a BBQ for a short time and with many people milling about it's easy to slip away.


11 is a time where life flows, a creative time, so this invitation is a kind of blessing, part of the richness of life so FWIW I think it wouldn't be a good idea to stay away just because of 2 people who you may not even need to speak to at all.

 

[MrKind]

The reason you weren't going was because of 2 people but I feel Yi is saying in the whole scheme of the great flow of 11 they really aren't important enough to stop you going and getting benefit from going.

Yes! I feel exactly the same way about this. I'm glad that we are connecting again (both me and I Ching and me and you ) Thank you! On a funny twist, one of those 2 people I had those negative experiences before also applied to the same position I did - and also asked for a referral BUT supposedly she did it too late (but she is a kind of person that tells lies left and right, so who knows!) it would be unfortunate if we ought to meet again and work together in a small team. I'd rather avoid that, ha!

Seems to me going to the BBQ puts you in the flow of things and enables you to make creative connections by which I mean connections that move your life forward, that bring change

On the other hand (my own rational mind) I dont know how much positive change can bring going to a traditional alcohol-filled random meeting [I stopped going to those long time ago!] but hey. Let's find out.

 

[Trojina]

On the other hand (my own rational mind) I dont know how much positive change can bring going to a traditional alcohol-filled random meeting [I stopped going to those long time ago!] but hey.

Line 1 is beginnings, subtle signs. So I think, as with most social gatherings, it's not the gathering itself that makes change but the small incidental exchanges that happen between people that just extend your world a bit.


For example I was circulating at a dullish dinner party type of thing and someone I'd not met before mentioned a writing group she went to which triggered me to go where I made connections with other people. Sometimes I'll find people mention books that turn out to be quite important to me. It's the little things, little connections that can lead to other things though you may not be too aware of it at the time. In 11.1 things are connected just below the surface, there's a direction there you won't as yet be fully aware of.


Enjoy yourself and let us know how it goes

 

[MrKind]

Oh well, the girl who was organizing this just posted that it wont happen - BBQ cancelled

 

[MrKind]

Oh well I just go and enjoy sunny day in a park, then work on my paintings. Avoiding alcohol is always good idea for my health too.

 

[Trojina]

"Oh well" has a very 11.3 ish vibe so maybe the cancellation was the 11.3.

But you never know what might happen in a park