Sick of people telling me what to do. Hexagram 4 5.6>29

[vikk]

Hi all,

I hope everyone is well. I wanted to reach out to this wonderful community in hopes that you would offer your experience and wisdom on my reading.

I have been going through some transition for the past 2 years which had its extreme lows. I'm battling ptsd and depression, feel extremely lonely and worthless with no hopes or aspirations for the future. It all started way before pandemic and of course lock down and social distancing are not making things any more tolerable. I had some professional sessions, etc. to help me overcome these issues. However, occasional conversations with one of my friends also occur. I discuss with her everything from my apartment search, my separation from my spouse, my general crappy state, etc. And it is more just that I need a listening ear, not an advice. I just need to vent. However, a lot of times the conversation winds down to be her moment to teach about life. And all it ends up being is her criticizing what I do, how I choose to act in certain situations, etc. She makes me feel like a complete idiot. Last time I saw her, I was roasting a chicken and she just stood there and kept saying that I am not putting enough seasoning, that the oven is not hot enough, that I need to use butter instead of oil, etc, etc, etc. All that just with the chicken. When I opened up about my divorce, she said that I didn't choose appropriate ways to conduct my separation. Another opinion she voiced was that I didn't choose convincing enough words to avoid rent increase. I feel like I am being treated like a little girl who can't get anything right. And the vitriol is just starting to become unbearable.

My friend's behavior reminded me about other people in my life (friends, acquaintances, family members) that would offer their unsolicited opinion turn vitriol. Am I attracting these kind of individuals? How do I combat that? What should I change in myself to stop being treated that way? Sometimes I "fight" back and that gets dismissed as me overacting to a kind hearted word of advice. What could be an effective method to stop this, get a word of advice when I truly need it?

I casted, and IChing offered the following answer:

what should I change in myself to stop attracting people who teach me how to live life?
4 5.6 >29

I feel like the Oracle is playing a joke on me too. It is like it is saying that I am an ignorant and inexperienced, that these people will always be in my life. That I just should stop resisting, stop cultivating hatred and enmity towards these people, that they actually are not bad people, but are here for my good. But I don't want to feel like a complete moron (and that's how I feel a lot) after a speak to them. I feel like I am constantly criticized and people just get off on that.

Do you possibly see any other interpretations of this reading?

I would appreciate your feedback.

Thank you all!
Love,
Vikk

 

[becalm]

You're not attracting these people, these people are everywhere and when we come across them we either Accept them or Reject them. The choice is ours.
What you're doing according to this reading is automatically becoming the 'child' in the relationship. Work out why you do that and that can lead you to learning more about yourself and your behaviours.

 

[moss elk]

Since you say you act badly when hearing advice, and don't want any advice....
I won't offer any.


Yi did though.
Line 5 says that
you do need to be open to listening and learning.

Line 6 is about someone getting angry with a perceived half-wit, and controlling that anger, instead of smacking them. (sounds exactly like how your critical friends feel, no?
or even how you feel about them?)


Ok,
I didn't give any advice,
so I should be safe?

This is not advice,
but a truism:
Our real friends will give us true and critical feedback at times, our enablers and false selfish acquaintances will not.

 

[vikk]

Hi guys, thank you for your input!

becalm, I do become a child - open, sincere, with nothing to hide. Maybe because I don’t mind spilling my guts and be completely vulnerable, people think that they can say what they want.
Maybe I just need to share less?

moss elk, no, no! I do need advice, that is why I’m here. I asked for it. I really appreciate you being so respectful. The problem with my friends is that they give advice which sounds like vitriol when it is completely unsolicited. They teach me when the only thing that I need from them is to listen and maybe just say “I hear you. I’m sorry you going through this. If you want my two cents, I’m happy to offer it.” Not to jump into a tirade of how they would have handled things if they were in the situation I’m discussing with them at that moment. I absolutely agree with you saying that a real friend will always offer the truest of opinions. However, that is he problem with my friends, they don’t. Whenever I come and ASK for advice, they say “well I don’t know. You do what you think is right”. The moment you do what you think is right and sometimes things don’t turn out to the most desirable outcome, I get this automatic response “you did this wrong and it should have been done this way” or “I would have done it this way”. But where were you before when I ASKED what would you do???? Your advice right now, post factum, is like yesterday’s snow. What is the use for it right now?
Pardon, my lengthy rant.
I truly appreciate your opinion and was very happy to hear it.

 

[legume]

whenever i see 29 i think "learn to swim". and i'm a good swimmer, but not always in the in intricacies of life or when navigating social situations. i find it's about finding emotional support within yourself. once you got that down, it also kinda shows, there's a certainty with which you start to move when around people. so 4.5 tells you to acknowledge there's always still more to learn, while 4.6 could be something like, when you get someone telling you what to do and it starts getting annoying, try to see what they're saying, maybe even show gratitude, but you can always say "thanks, i guess i just needed to vent". i do that, don't think it ever hurt or angered anybody.

 

[moss elk]

They teach me when the only thing that I need from them is to listen and maybe just say “I hear you. I’m sorry you going through this. If you want my two cents, I’m happy to offer it.” Not to jump into a tirade of how they would have handled things if they were in the situation I’m discussing with them at that moment.

vikk, I must ask:
Are these male friends?

because this is an extremely common complaint that women have about men.

 

[vikk]

vikk, I must ask:
Are these male friends?

because this is an extremely common complaint that women have about men.

No. All female. There was one male who I briefly dated. But all girls. Especially one of them who I considered my best friend. But lately every time I talk to her I feel like sh””” to the point of having a panic attack.

 

[dfreed]

For 4.5.6 > 29, considering first the meanings of the trigrams (the two, three-line figures that make up the hexagram:

With Hex. 4, the lower trigram is Water. I see this as representing you in this situation: you are someone who feels things very deeply, and perhaps your emotions are your main filter for how you see (and feel) the world. In this reading it has no moving lines - which indicates no imbalance or negative aspect but then again, you mentioned being down, struggling with depression and so on - so maybe that's present here as well.

Thinking of the upper trigram, first as representing your friend, here we find Mountain: mountain wants to stop processes, and stop movement .... It makes me wonder if perhaps your friend's over-critical nature is a way of keeping things from changing, and perhaps a way of controlling things (and you) - so they and you don't change?

With the fifth and sixth moving lines, Mountain changes to trigram Water (the upper trigram of Hex. 29): here again is water. It suggests to me that you need to find ways to get things flowing again, which might also mean letting yourself be - or feel - 'exposed'. It makes me think: what if you found ways to deeply feel without being depressed? Or, what if you were to 'expose' yourself to your friend - and tell them that you don't want to be continuously criticized?

From the Hexagram 4 text, it says (Richard Rutt's version): 'when the first divination is auspicious ....'

This reminds me of the Zen expression, 'first thought, best thought' - that your first deeply-felt impressions about this friend (and others) - and also what you need to do - are correct, but that you may be second-guessing yourself - ('repeated divinations are confusing ...') perhaps because of your depression: 'I don't like what they're saying or how they're treating me, but ... it's me, or ... they're only trying to help ....' (Note: these are just examples and possibilities - and your particulars may be different.)

I wonder too if you do have a good sense of what you need to do - both about your friend and about your depression - but you second-guess, or don't pay attention to it?

From the Line 4.6 text it says: 'Knocking down dodder. Favorable against raiders'.

The dodder is a parasitic plant with no leaves or roots; it survives by attaching itself to other plants. So perhaps, you need to find ways to 'knock down' your depression (seek professional help, including meds, if only for a short period of time, etc.); and it also reminds me of knocking barnacles off the bottom of a boat so it can move and flow more freely - maybe that you need to let go of your dodder-like friend if she won't stop being like a parasite?

In a nutshell: knock down the dodder (criticism, depression, etc.), scrape the barnacles off the bottom of your boat, and start flowing again.

As an aside to the Yi's advice ... a dozen or so years ago I went through a period of being depressed. My close friends told me they were worried about me, and gently made suggestions, but they were quite fierce about how they'd feel if I hurt myself: they'd be pissed and kick my ass if I tried to kill or otherwise harm myself! And it was that fierce-ness - and seeing how I was affecting others - that helped me to seek help for my depression. But otherwise, none of my friends were ever critical of how I lived my life - or how or what I cooked.

I hope that's of some use.
Best, D

 

[vikk]

It makes me wonder if perhaps your friend's over-critical nature is a way of keeping things from changing, and perhaps a way of controlling things (and you) - so they and you don't change?

Dfreed, thank you for your input! I appreciate it!
It cross my mind before that she is controlling. It almost feels like she needs to be orchestrating someone else’s life. It brings her joy, purpose and satisfaction. Maybe because something is missing in her life, she just doesn’t realize it or doesn’t want to share. But I’m not her child.

Or, what if you were to 'expose' yourself to your friend - and tell them that you don't want to be continuously criticized?

Thank you for your suggestion. It is definitely something to think about. I was totally entertaining the idea of talking to her and telling her how I feel about our interactions. I just feel like it will be a start of bad blood between us because she needs to be in control and how come this “child” aka me is speaking out.

...and also what you need to do - are correct, but that you may be second-guessing yourself - ('repeated divinations are confusing ...') perhaps because of your depression: 'I don't like what they're saying or how they're treating me, but ... it's me, or ... they're only trying to help ....' (Note: these are just examples and possibilities - and your particulars may be different.)

I wonder too if you do have a good sense of what you need to do - both about your friend and about your depression - but you second-guess - or don't pay attention to - that as well?

You are right. I do second guess myself. Partly because I am subconsciously afraid of making a wrong move and be criticize by those people. This fear clouds my judgement.

In a nutshell: knock down the dodder (criticism, depression, etc.), scrape the barnacles off the bottom of your boat and start flowing again.

Thank you for this great suggestion. Getting “cleaned up” from negative thoughts, people and get moving is an ultimate recipe to getting better.

D, you also mentioned your situation with depression and how your friends were there for you. Those are some good friends you have. I’m happy for you. In my case it is a little different because whenever I open up and tell that friend that I keep eyeing that small kitchen knife with a blue handle to possibly cut my wrists, she tells me “Oh well, you are depressed. Remember when I was depressed (she went through some horrible ptsd because of her cancer battle years ago) I would crush wine glasses in my hand and get a relief from seeing blood.” That sounded so nonchalant and cold. It almost felt like she was dismissing my pain and presenting her own as a comparison that she had it worse then me. And all want to say “please it is not a competition. I know you were in a dark place. Now I’m in dark place. Please help me. Don’t nullify and dismiss my pain by comparing me to yourself!”

thank you, D! I hope your are seeing light in your life and kicked all negativity to the curb!

 

[Trojina]

Working through the post with a different perspective

I discuss with her everything from my apartment search, my separation from my spouse, my general crappy state, etc. And it is more just that I need a listening ear, not an advice. I just need to vent. However, a lot of times the conversation winds down to be her moment to teach about life.

But it costs a person to sit and listen to someone's problems. What can happen is the listener is expected to just soak it all up and then act the perfect friend by just nodding and saying 'I hear you'. You have to take into account how it makes the other feel to be on the receiving end of another's pain in an ongoing situation. I mean you are presenting them with problems but wanting them to act a certain way on hearing about them and it sounds like they feel frustrated, like they can't only be sponges soaking it all up they want to just sort the stuff out. I don't know that of course but I do think imagining yourself in their shoes might take the edge off your disappointment in them.

I feel like I am being treated like a little girl who can't get anything right. And the vitriol is just starting to become unbearable.

Possibly tell them less of what your problems are ? If you are always telling them what went wrong in your life they will inevitably see you as someone who isn't coping and that could lead to advice.

Another opinion she voiced was that I didn't choose convincing enough words to avoid rent increase. I feel like I am being treated like a little girl who can't get anything right. And the vitriol is just starting to become unbearable.

So you were worried about a rent increase and possibly your friend felt frustrated that you were complaining about it but you could have done more to help yourself ? I mean what I see here is not nasty friends but possibly frustrated friends that have become bossy as they get the idea more and more that you can't manage.

My friend's behavior reminded me about other people in my life (friends, acquaintances, family members) that would offer their unsolicited opinion turn vitriol. Am I attracting these kind of individuals? How do I combat that? What should I change in myself to stop being treated that way? Sometimes I "fight" back and that gets dismissed as me overacting to a kind hearted word of advice. What could be an effective method to stop this, get a word of advice when I truly need it?

I casted, and IChing offered the following answer:

what should I change in myself to stop attracting people who teach me how to live life?
4 5.6 >29

Well without Yi I'd say stop telling them all about your problems. I'm not sure it's a realistic expectation to tell friends all your problems and not expect then to offer advice. I think it can be empowering to keep some problems completely private then you won't get advice and can sort it out yourself. Change patterns here are 20 and 34 which I'd see as you are coming to the question to view first and foremost and you make your way through more independent in strength. But 4.5.6>29, well first I don't think this is about attracting people of a certain kind so I can't quite go with the question. I think what might have happened is you have set up some sort of emotional economy system with these people and it fails you in that they aren't providing what you thought was in the deal. In purely pragmatic terms either your expectation of them changes if you want to retain them in your life or you let them go.

Back to 4.5.6>29 it's a weird one since you are presenting yourself as someone who needs help and advice but you don't want that and then Yi gives you 4.5, someone very open to learn. Perhaps rather than present yourself to them as needing help you present yourself as someone who is just going to take it as it comes, learn as she goes along. I mean if you are giving the message 'this is terrible, I can't do this' they are going to want to sort it out but if you give the message ' actually no idea where I'm headed but I will make it' it might change things between you ? I don't know. 4.6 is odd because it sounds exactly like advice for them not you. It's saying if you meet ignorance don't beat it up and resist being an enemy. But it can't be advice for them here, that wouldn't make sense, so it's telling you not to beat them up for their ignorance or their incapacity to bear with you. 29 here I guess is the fluctuating and unpredictable emotion around this.

 

[dfreed]

....I keep eyeing that small kitchen knife with a blue handle to possibly cut my wrists, ....

Vikk, if this is the situation you’re putting your friend in, then the main issue here is not your friends, but your depression! You may not like me telling you what to do, but you need go get professional help immediately!

 

[vikk]

But it costs a person to sit and listen to someone's problems. ... Possibly tell them less of what your problems are?

Hi Trojina, thank you for your input!

Yeah, this thought crossed my mind before too - I just need to stop sharing so much. I just never thought that I do. My friend and I have a conversation every two to three weeks with an occasional hi-how are you doing- text in between. And it is just talk about what happened - she tells me her problems, I tell her mine. I sit and listen patiently with occasional word of advise which I make sure is welcomed. She jumps into a lecture of how things need to be done, and how she does handles things. And at the end of it all it turns into a conversation about brilliant her and dumb me. And that happens with others in my life too - you are stupid, brilliant me would have done it differently and better.

So you were worried about a rent increase and possibly your friend felt frustrated that you were complaining about it but you could have done more to help yourself ?

I just told her what happened during my week, Yet again she offered unsolicited and this time uninformed advice which turned to be about brilliant me who would have handle things differently. She suggested that my landlady should not be upping the rent completely disregarding the fact that I did research and learnt that even with the price increase I will be paying for two bedroom what is normally charged for one. I guess she was judging the situation equipped with 7 year old knowledge - that was the last time she looked for a place, and a place in a neighboring state where rents are much cheaper then in five boroughs. I could have told her all of that and turn our conversation into an argument, but I just chuckled “Here she goes again with her lecture” and tried shoving negative feelings down inside of me.

I'm not sure it's a realistic expectation to tell friends all your problems and not expect then to offer advice. I think it can be empowering to keep some problems completely private then you won't get advice and can sort it out yourself.

In purely pragmatic terms either your expectation of them changes if you want to retain them in your life or you let them go.

Perhaps rather than present yourself to them as needing help you present yourself as someone who is just going to take it as it comes, learn as she goes along.

... so it's telling you not to beat them up for their ignorance or their incapacity to bear with you. 29 here I guess is the fluctuating and unpredictable emotion around this.

I guess I will not be saying anything anymore to her and others and just be patient and try pass it over me without emotional disturbance next time they jump into a rant/unsolicited advice/I know it all. Lol
Thank you again, Trojina!

 

[vikk]

Vikk, if this is the situation you’re putting your friend in, then the main issue here is not your friends, but your depression! You may not like me telling you what to do, but you need go get professional help immediately!

Thank you so much for the concern! I finally started to come to grips that I do need professional help. I don’t think I’ll be able to do without. So I’m working on that.

 

[diamant]

@vikk I believe the interpretation of @becalm nailed it. You're an adult, but somehow you're in an infantilised-adult position. This is something which is taught to someone by their parents.

Those 'friends' lecturing you, devaluing you, and playing dumb-you brilliant-me, sound awful. Their (post fact) bragging advice is worth zero. You're having some serious problems with your life right now, the last thing you need is extra poison to add to the problems. Perhaps councelling would help? Difficult to find a good psychotherapist/councellor, many of them are toxic too, so keep an eye out for that as well.

 

[becalm]

@vikk I believe the interpretation of @becalm nailed it. You're an adult, but somehow you're in an infantilised-adult position. This is something which is taught to someone by their parents.

Cheers diamant, Vikk I was speaking from experience because I used to do similar things and the reading reflects what I said.

 

[vikk]

Diamant and becalm! Thank you very much for your input.
I sat here and gave a deep thought to all of the contributors suggestions.
I think infantilised position is a learnt behavior from my mother. She is superstitious and always talked as if she is in an inferior position to the interlocutor. She didn’t want people to think that she is doing well so they don’t jinx her.
I do not agree with her views, but I guess subconsciously my voice and my body language as well as facial expression change or I chose certain vocabulary that make people think that they have an underdog here who is worthy of lessons and lectures. I definitely need to work on that and next time to be aware of how I talk to others.

Thank you all for all your input!

 

[rosada]

It sounds like you've got a pretty clear understanding of what you need to do now - quit with the over sharing and seek out professional counseling (incidentally, you can get some very good counseling from the suicide hotline - and you don't have to be at the point of pulling the trigger to call them) (Also you may be very pleasantly surprised at how effective just one or two sessions with a professional counselor can be.) I just feel to add some thoughts about how to navigate the conversations with your friend. ..

If you are together in person and she's going on and on, get up and move around. "I need to get a glass of water. Would you like one?" is a great way to disrupt the 29. Flow.

Another is to immediately praise her before she gets too deep into her speach and then ask for her thoughts on a totally different subject, "Well I think you're absolutely right about that. Now let me ask your advice on something else, do you trust Dr Fauci?"

Humor helps too - if you feel you must vent get out two or three 3 x 5 cards and write things on them like "Oh My Dear, I am so sorry to hear that!" and "You are handling things so well!" Then tell her you want to vent and when you hold up a card this is what you want her to say.

Another approach is to straight out tell her too much advice makes you feel bad:
You: We need to have a "safe word" so when one of us is giving too much advice the other one can say it and we'll know to back off.
She: What should the safe word be?
You: How about this for a safe word: "Shutthef**kup"?

Finally, a tip from a girlfriend who told me the last time her husband made helpful suggestions about her cooking she threw the whole dinner in the garbage including the pan! She swears this must have greatly improved her skills because it happened 6 years ago and there haven't been any complaints since.

 

[vikk]

Omg, Rosada!!!
You made me laugh so hard!!!
thank you for making my day brighter. And I really like the coping strategies you suggested.
Your whole post made me feel so much better.

And all the rest of you contributors I again really really appreciate your words of advice and wisdom!