Some basics on 5 arts

[jesed]

Just in case the comment could be useful

The last posts of Willowfox on Elizabeth's thread could lead to confusion to people; so i would like to give some basics on the subject.

1.- There are some cultural elements of the older chinese culture, that are presents in every one of the 5 arts. In traditional teachings, are said that there is a cosmology that informs the medicine, the astrology, the feng-shui, and the Yi Jing. Think in yin/yang (I know that the School of Yin/yang as a school is much later...), the 5 phases... the void. So, the fact that one uses one of this common elements doens't imply that one is using one or other of the 5 arts.
So, saying that using stems and branches is only astrology is a mistake and ignorance.
As anyone can see in the article of Herman Masker about the 8 Palaces, or studying tha najia system, stems and brances are used in Yijing interpretation,

2.- Despite this common elements, the diference between the 5 arts are rooted on the field in wich are used. The astrology is to find out the "destiny" of one person (formed in the cosmic energies at the time of his/her birth). That's why, astrology deals only with the birth (year, month, day, and hour), and from that develop the destiny, even in time-cycles of good or bad fortune. Yijing is not to find the destiny, but to find the tendential of change in situations (interaction of objective reality and subjective choices) in order to flow with the Tao and not against it. Feng-shui is to find out the flow of energy in the enviroment (interaction of cosmical and earthly energies) and how that flow influences of wealth. Medicine is to find out the flow of energy within the body (and it's intercation with the enviroment) to health and balance.

3.- The post of Willowfox ("That is why the Chinese use the I Ching and some other oracles because there is no need to take the question of time into consideration" and "I also asked you to explain how a single line can represent a snake or rooster but you did not tell me. I understand that the trigrams can represent animals ,time and many other things but not a single line. And as for each line representing a month etc, I am sorry but I don't think that is correct.") only shows that willowfox ignore the najia system of Yijing, and others very similar to that (what I called generically mathematical method)

4.- To master the 5 arts is imposible in one life. However, one person can learn the basics of the 5 arts (specially the common elements) and master one or two of them. So, the Willowfox's expression "Anyway, Raymond Lo is a Feng Shui adviser not really an astrologer at all. So are you now hinting that you are using Feng Shui to answer questions about peoples lives. Are you using Feng Shui to do your forecasts? Or are you using astrology(heaven)?" only shows how willowfox ignore the ways traditional knowledge is learned in China.

No, I don't use astrology (even if I know the basic of that) neither fengshui (even if I know the basics of one of the schools) to understand Yijing's answers

5.- I agree with some of the critics about Raymond Lo, specially the biroco's review of his book. It is very elemental. However, is a good start for a begginer in mathematical method. That's why I suggested Willowfox to start studying it in that book. There are better books, of course. In Harmen's opinions, "superiching" of Alex Chiu is one of those better books (but it has some mayor mistakes, as I wrote time ago in this forum)

6.- I disagree with the critic against Master Joseph Yu. The fact that he wrote some elemental book for begginers doesn't imply that he doesn't know more. Try the 1-year curse of Yijing to know that.

7.- About calendaric calculations. One mistake is to think that there is only one chinese calendar. That is basic. About the tool I use, as I said, the best teacher is confront interpretations/real facts. Real facts had confirmed several times this tool (even in this forum)

8.- "No where does it state in any text books, that each line can represent months and also rooster, snakes etc. like you have stated.". Again ignorance. There are several books (both in Chinese and English) that explain how a line represents one of the 12 animals and, therefore, one of the 12 months and one of the 12 days and one of the 12 hours (depending the calendaric reference in the question). See Herman's article about the 8 Palaces, or the books harmen reviewed about najia system.

Best wishes

 

[RindaR]

Thank you, Jesed. This is helpful to me in understanding the interrelationships of the five arts. And thanks, also for moving your comments to a new thread. This shows respect for the thread of the original querent.

Rinda

 

[willowfox]

Hi Jesed,

the najia fortune telling system,

To divine you cast a hexagram as you normally do when you ask a question, and after that you decorate the hexagram with all kinds of labels, as if it were a Christmas tree. You attach the Five Phases, the Stems & Branches, the Six Relationships, the 'Self' and 'Other' etc to the lines of the hexagram, and see how they interact. From this interaction you draw your conclusions, ignoring what it says in the Yijing text itself. That's all there is to it.

This describes your najia system but it still does not explain how you obtain your 45 days that are fixed for every year from the beginning to eternity. And why use 8 when you keep talking about 12 days, 12 hours, 12 animals? Can you please list the books in English that say that the 6 lines of the hex can represent the 12 animals of Chinese astrology.

 

[jesed]

You try to show that you already know the najia system. And you show how much you ignored it.

It is an insult to quote Harmen's review and don't aknowledge his work. The first paragraph is Harmen's point of view.

Now, any one that knows a little bit about najia, knows that among the "labels like Christmas tree", there are the 12 animals linked to the branches.

Each branch (each animal) can be aplied to year, month, day and hour (as any people that studied Bazi knows)

Now, again you are mixing 2 methods to calculate calendaric references in the Yijing.

The use of branches is when one uses mathematical method (not based in the text)

The use of the Post Heaven order (trigrams of 45 days) is when one uses traditional method (text based) for a diganosis kind of question.

About the English books, I alreday suggested Raymond Lo's book; and Joseph Yu 1-year-curse

You can also see "superiching", even if Alex Chiu changes the names to his own system.

Best wishes

 

[toganm]

About the English books, I alreday suggested Raymond Lo's book; and Joseph Yu 1-year-curse
You can also see "superiching", even if Alex Chiu changes the names to his own system.

There is another book by Wang Yang "The Authentic I Ching: The Three Classic Methods of Prediction" which also discusses Mei Hua method along with Na Jia.

Best wishes
Togan

 

[jesed]

Hi Togan

Right...i hadn't read it, but I should list it.

Thanks

 

[willowfox]

Hi jesed,

this is about the book that you recommended by Raymond Lo,

The first thing you notice about this book is its price. $48 for 150 pages is extortionate, especially when you consider the quality of the contents. Mr Lo published the book himself, not through a mainstream publisher. He probably couldn't find a publisher interested in such a mediocre work – the content just has too little to appeal to a large audience. Because the book has not been through an editorial process there are many typographical errors – some paragraphs are repeated (pp 1–3) and the typeface is not consistent throughout the book. The text reads awkwardly, it is clear that English is not Mr Lo's native language, which alone would have been reason enough to use an editor.
Raymond Lo presents the najia system as something easy to learn and apply. Maybe it is easy to learn, but it is hard to apply. As I have said, one rule can say that the hexagram is fortunate but another rule can say that the hexagram is dire. When you use the system you have to know how to deal with all possible exceptions to the rules – and there are a lot of exceptions. As a beginner you will not know what to do with all the information you gather when you label the hexagrams, you do not know how to prioritise the various bits of data. Although Mr Lo takes a more systematic approach than Wang Yang, he still doesn't provide enough information to enable a beginner to learn the system, and it is surely not enough to satisfy an advanced Yi student. No one should pay $48 for a book that tells you only the very basics and nothing more.

 

[willowfox]

Hi jesed,

this is what is said about the christian man, Alex Chu and his book,

the book reminds me of how I learned the rules of chess. There are just six different pieces (king, queen, rook, knight, bishop, and pawn), and I thought, gee, this is simple. But when they were put on the board I was lost. So many possibilities, so many choices to make. I have the same problem with Alex's book. Although the basics are quite simple to understand and learn, there are a lot of ways to deal with it, and Alex doesn't make it any easier by giving extra warnings you have to heed: 'If the U line K star is not in trouble, a moving B star is your worst nightmare!', or cryptic sentences like 'A strong R star still cannot win if a K star moves to strike with the R star', 'If the helper B m moves turning into a strong R yo which kills and strikes back at B m, the helper B m will be damaged'. It isn't quite a book for beginners.

Alex claims that 80% of the book are his own ideas, which makes you wonder whether the text corresponds with the original material written down since the Han dynasty.

'The most powerful language of God' is the subtitle of this big book, written by one of the weirdest guys on the internet. Alex claims he has invented 'immortality rings' which will prevent you from dying, and thinks that teleportation will be invented because everyone will wear his rings, and therefore the planet will soon be crowded, and we need teleportation to transport these crowds to other planets.

 

[willowfox]

Hi jesed,

more information about the najia system which you claim is so good.The complex najia system, also devised in the Han era, correlated the lines of the hexagrams of the Yijing (Changes Classic) with the five agents from the "Great Plan" chapter of the Shujing (Documents Classic), the ten heavenly stems and the twelve earthly branches, the phases of the moon, etc., sometimes resorting to numerological redress to tie in odd elements. Thus, some of these "systems" are more appropriately characterized as "stitched" than as "seamless." As they grew in complexity, becoming more elaborate and artificial, these constructs were increasingly divorced from their original textual bases, as well as from any view of nature suggested by empirical observation.

 

[willowfox]

Hi jesed,

I do indeed understand what the Post Heaven order is.

According to Chinese tradition around 2200 BCE, a great flood covered the earth. Master Yu (or Yu the Great) found how to control these floodwaters. The mythology around Master Yu, was that he discovered the Luo Shu pattern on the turtle's shell when it emerged from the waters at the river Luo. The pattern was the magic square. This pattern "magically" added to 15 in every direction. This became the "Post Heaven" order for the Eight Trigrams (also known as the Ba Gua).

But what I don't understand is what this has to do with the 45 days period of time that you use. You divide the year by 8 which gives 45.625 days, then you say that each period represents a fixed month in the year, and that every year is exactly the same. Could you please explain clearly because I enjoy learning about new methods of prediction. But so far you have been unable to explain how your method works and how you derived the 45 days.

Ba Zi is the astrology system called the Four Pillars of Destiny based on the solar calendar, It does indeed need the date and place of birth of a person to work.

I would like to inform you that I am not mixing any two methods to find dates in the I Ching.

 

[jesed]

Again, you are quoting Harmen without aknowledge his work.

Funny that many people in this forum had read the explanations i wrote about how this traditional tool is used; and they had try it (instead of "thinking" about it), and the had find it accurate. You are the only one that had problem in undertanding (maybe you hadn't even try the tool)

No, I won't explain you any more. What i had posted about this technique had been enough for those who had try it.

Anybody can try it; or leave it. If you cann't undertand this technique, is not a problem for you. You don't need it.

Best wishes

 

[willowfox]

I have tried the najia system and I could not get a sensible answer of any kind from it. And as for the post heaven method, it has no sound base in reality.

 

[jesed]

Excuse me, but you are lying

If you had tryied the najia system, you wouldn't asked where snakes, horses and pigs came from in my comments. Simple.

And there is no "Post Heaven method".

Traditional method have several tools (one is Post Heaven Order) and several techniques.

The calendaric calculation technique in traditional method uses the Post Heaven Order (microcosmical) to derivate a cicle of calendaric time.

You can see it don't "sound" based in reality. But you can see in this forum that IN REALITY, the calendaric calculations I had made with this technique had been accurate (or at least, is what the consultant had said... there is another issue with this pointed by Chris Lofting .. any calculation could be seen as meaningful due to our neurological way of work... but that is another issue)

In any case... if this is useful for you.. my best wishes
If this is not useful for you... my best wishes

 

[willowfox]

I am most certainly not lying!

I know exactly how the lines are labeled.

You claimed to be using a different method from the najia system of fortune telling when I first asked you about the 45 days method. Then you claimed to be using the Post Heaven order to do your forecasting and obtain the 45 days. When I asked you to explain how you used the Post heaven order, you are could not or would not. Then you did not say but you hinted that you were using the najia method of fortune telling. Exactly what method are you using? Please in future don't call me a liar, I take it as an insult!

 

[jesed]

You really don't want to understand in order to not recognice your fault.

1.- About how I use Post Heaven order, I said to you read previous post; and you said you read it. Now you say that I could not or would not explain. Laying.

2.- You say you know exactly how the lines are labeled; but you did asked where snakes, horses came from... if you had try najia (no matter what I said or not sai), you didn't need to ask that question. Lying

3.- I told you, I use 2 diferent methods (traditional and mathematical) What I wrote is clear about it.

4.- In the future, if I think your are lying again, I would said so due to honesty with reality and respect for the consultants

Best wishes

 

[willowfox]

What you wrote is so unclear that there is no way to make it work from your lack of precise instructions. What you said about mathematical and traditional does not make any sense at all. It is you that is lying, your explanation of Post heaven is so vague it could mean anything. Do you ever use the najia method or is that more of your nonsense and lies. I would doubt whether you really knew what honesty is!

 

[jesed]

Do I ever use najia? See
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=469

Just as one of many examples in this forum

Of course, you also can see the thread about salary raise from elizabeth

Again, you don't want to understand, beacuse you don't want to.

Best wishes

 

[willowfox]

As you seem to know everything, even what I am thinking then you must be correct in all the things that you say about me, oh wise sage. I suppose that I must be the most stupidist person on this forum ,because I don't understand, or I won't understand, or I can't understand. Oh mighty one please report my evil ways to the world. As you are so clean and pure no harm will ever befall you. You are a shining light of honesty and truthfulness, I just wish I could follow your example of how to correct my own life. Don't hesitate to find fault with me, expose all my misdeeds. Help me see the light.

 

[toganm]

He who knows men is clever;
He who knows himself has insight.
DDJ # 33

To know when to stop is to be preserved from perils.
Only thus can you endure long.

DDJ #44

Best wishes
Togan

 

[jesed]

Hi Togan

Thanks, I'll follow your advise.

Best wishes