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Something strange about the nuclear hexagram

Leerling

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The nuclear hexagram of a hexagram corresponding to a situation is supposed to tell you something about the hidden processes leading to the situation. But how can that be? It seems to me you can not have it both ways. Suppose the original hexagram is such as to give the best description possible of the situation. The nuclear hexagram is than already completely determined and can not possibly contain any extra information absent in the original hexagram.
 
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Freedda

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Leerling,

I don't want to discourage your exploration of the Yi Ching, but I find myself wondering what is the goal of your recent questions? (Assuming there is a goal and not just intellectual rumination - which is fine too.)

Form my end, it seems like you want to find a way to engage the Yi only if it first meets some rigorous standard of historic, scientific, and cultural accuracy.

If that's true, I'd suggest that you may want to start with interpretation based only on the Zhouyi, the oldest hexagram and line text, noting that even here you'll find a range of translations and meanings, and places where it is likely based on observations of the natural world, but not necessarily on science as we understand it.

As i understand it, anything else comes from the Ten Wings, or later, all the way up to the present. This includes a long list of ways of divination and interpretation:

The trigrams
Nuclear and surrounding hexagrams and trigrams
Ideal and shadow hexagram
Hexagram pairs
Sequence
Line pathways and hidden lines
Patterns of change or change operators,
Etc.

Some people use these, and find them useful, regardless if they are 'pure' or historic or scientific. I, for example often look at the Ideal hexagram (a discovery or invention of Steven Karcher, as far as I know). I know it is not a strictly Yi construction, but I find it often gives useful and clear direction - so I include it.

I'd add too that I think looking to apply a rigorous rational, historic or scientic standard is impossible given the nature of the beast. I mean, Jimminy Christmas, it has (according to some) its roots in shamanism and cracking turtle breast bones with fire to read the future! Add to that a 3,000 plus year spotty historic record, the huge muddle of interpretation, not only in word meanings, but across gaps and huge diffences in cultures which affect language. And then many thousands of years of adding layers of philosophic, spiritual and culture meanings and interpretations ... well, good luck then in finding a 'pure' Yi Ching to make use of.

And ... I'd say that maybe then when its all said and done, the proof is in the pudding. Learn the basics of using the I Ching, then maybe try out other ways of interpretation - nuclear hexagrams, trigrams, etc - and see if they offer you anything of value.

Regards, David
 

Leerling

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@ Freedda

I have consulted the I Ching a few times now and found out it works: that is it helps in exploring my own psyche and possibilities. The process seems to depend on the very ambiguity of the messages you get. So a scientific and/or rigorous version of the I Ching would very likely no longer be of any use as an oracle. Nevertheless the I Ching is claimed to be not only an oracle but also an ancient "system of the world". My approach to that proto-scientific claim is to look and see what can be done. The "Exploring Divination" section is probably the wrong apartment of this forum for a mathematical approach so please tell me where I have to go to proceed.
 
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Freedda

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Leerling, sorry if I'm misreading your intent. I think I said it 'seems to be' what you're asking, not that it is.

I don't know where I can point you to at this point:.

Above you said that you have used the Yi a few times with good result, and that you seem to accept the ambiguity of this system of divination ... but ...? So it seems to me that you have touched upon and made good use of this particular "system of the world," which to me seems to complete the circle. So I guess others will have to weigh in to give you better advice.

Best, David.
 

Trojina

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You are in the right place to discuss these things but in order to see what purpose the nuclear hexagram might in divination you really have to try it and see, feel how it works, rather than look at it as if it were a completely separate thing to the reading.

But if you have only done a few casts why would you even be using the nuclear hexagram ? Looking at the nuclear hexagram is just one thing to look at in order to 'get a handle on' the whole answer. It isn't set in stone how you use the nuclear hexagram. I don't often even consider it. When I do consider it it is as if to see the core of the primary, but I use it very loosely, just for a feel. I wouldn't exactly say it was the 'hidden processes leading to the situation' more like part of the skeletal underlying structure of the hexagram in question.

The nuclear hexagram is than already completely determined and can not possibly contain any extra information absent in the original hexagram.

It depends how you mean 'information'. Every hexagram has a relation to every other one. Looking at various patterns such as the nuclear hexagram or the shadow hexagram or the complimentary hexagram is not to get information that displaces the meaning of the hexagram you cast, it merely can add a reflection of it that aids your understanding, it's a question of looking from different angles not of pinning down information.

There is no need to use all these things, especially not at first. They are just things/tools/aids you can use when you feel like it. Take the shadow hexagram which is found by working in end from end so 1 is the shadow of 64, 2 is the shadow of 63 etc. It's thought to show how you might be very tempted to deal with a situation, but it actually isn't the way to go here. All these different ways are explained in full in Wikiwing which you get free when you join Change Circle. (You can join wikiwing separately for just £1 a month but I don't think that allows you access to the articles on the hexagrams of context. )

All I'm saying is to say this

The nuclear hexagram is than already completely determined and can not possibly contain any extra information absent in the original hexagram.

...is like saying that if you placed a beautiful stone in the middle of a field then it is just there and there cannot possibly be any new 'information' to be gained by walking around it, seeing it from different angles, seeing how the light catches it from this angle or from that angle.

So I think you are approaching using the nuclear hexagram from a perspective of fixing it to mean xyz whereas it's all a lot more fluid than that and you cannot really get a feel for how to use it unless you actually use it in readings and if you have only done a few readings then at this point you probably are better off not worrying about the nuclear hexagram at all. It's not something that people use in each and every reading, well some people might but I don't know many of them. It's far more a 'tool' people might experiment with in readings when they feel like it.

Have you thought of doing Hilary's Foundation Course which addresses many of these things, it's available on joining Change Circle.
 

Leerling

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Let me explain how I got here. A friend of mine uses the I Ching a lot, so eventually I wanted to know what it is all about. I tried it a few times to see if it works. And I got answers that made sense. But I also got answers that made sense when looking up some other random hexagrams. So I think the I Ching works as an oracle because it stimulates you to (unconsciously) interpret the ambiguous messages in a way that fits in with your situation and character. No need to suppose paranormal correspondences. In the future we hope to do some experiments to see if this is the whole story. She thinks there is more to it.

Meanwhile I am wondering (just intellectual curiosity) in how far you can do "hard science" with the system of hexagrams as a representation of the world (ourselves included). The questions about "information" contained in the hexagrams was not directly related to the use of the I Ching as an oracle, except in so far as I was trying to find the "axioms" of a rational reconstruction of the I Ching's "system of the world".
 
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diamanda

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And I got answers that made sense. But I also got answers that made sense when looking up some other random hexagrams.

When you don't know the 'language' of the I Ching very well yet, it's very easy to somehow be convinced that just about everything fits as an answer to your question. You need to learn its 'language' first - otherwise it all sounds very vague and poetic. So you're a mathematically minded person, and you're looking for a mathematical explanation to an oracle. However, if you look up a few different oracles from around the world and centuries, you'll see that what we're dealing with is a game of words/images.

So I think the I Ching works as an oracle because it stimulates you to (unconsciously) interpret the ambiguous messages in a way that fits in with your situation and character.

In my experience that is not so. If it was, we wouldn't be able to accurately predict external factors, especially in other people's readings, on this forum and elsewhere.
 

Leerling

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I am not looking for a mathematical explanation of the oracle, I think the explanation is psychological. Somewhat along these lines of The I Ching Handbook of Edward A. Hacker:

https://books.google.nl/books?id=cJfm_FO_TEAC

See the Introductory Remarks.

Research into paranormal phenomena (such as the use of the I Ching for the prediction of external chance factors) is not impossible, but you have to be very careful in the design and interpretation of your experiments. Anecdotal evidence may easily lead you astray. I have not seen convincing evidence as yet, but who knows what will happen in the future...
 

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