speculating from the concordance

[dobro p]

I'm putting together a glossary/concordance for the Yi, and I'm using the glossary/concordance in Ritsema/Karcher as an invaluable reference. But one term has given me a lot of work - this morning I had to go through EVERY gua, EVERY line, looking for occurrences of 'consequently' (ze2) because the concordance in Ritsema/Karcher doesn't list all the instances of ze2, but rather only says 'This term occurs throughout the hexagram texts'. Well, that's not really true, cuz there are only seven places in the Yi where it crops up. So, what's my point? Well first of all, if the term 'ze2' is so frequent that Ritsema/Karcher didn't bother to list all the instances of it, and yet there are only seven instances of it in the Yi proper, that tells me it crops up INNUMERABLY in the commentaries and wings. Secondly, the term itself means something like 'consequently' or 'therefore' - it's the kind of word used by people to indicate strong causal relationships between things. And THAT tells me that Yi studies after the time of the original Yi were permeated with a lot of perceptions based on causal thinking. And THAT tells me (lol - do you think I need a vacation?) those people were systematizers. And THAT tells me that the original wasn't as systematic as the modern I Ching might lead you to believe. The Yi turns on symbol, analogy, suggested meaning and intuition, not on typical Confucian systematization.

The bird has flown the coop.

Martin for President.

 

[Sparhawk]

And THAT tells me that Yi studies after the time of the original Yi were permeated with a lot of perceptions based on causal thinking. And THAT tells me (lol - do you think I need a vacation?) those people were systematizers. And THAT tells me that the original wasn't as systematic as the modern I Ching might lead you to believe. The Yi turns on symbol, analogy, suggested meaning and intuition, not on typical Confucian systematization.

The bird has flown the coop.

Martin for President.

No, I think in your case is too much caffeine...

Actually, ze2 appears 9 times in the text, twice in 41.3...

I like the general description I found of the modern use of 則, that "it expresses contrast with a previous sentence or clause" For the actual ancient etymology I'll have to get back home and check my dictionaries and I'm working late today at the office... (yes, people, I also work for a living... )

 

[dobro p]

Actually, ze2 appears 9 times in the text, twice in 41.3...

If you're at work, the only way you could know that is if you had access to an online concordance. Okay, dragonboy, fess up - what's the site?

Sigh...I'm such a cheap sausage. I'm just going to have to find two hundred bucks and buy a good Chinese/English dictionary with etymologies.

Anyway, here's my list: 4, 14.1, 25.2, 30.3, 38.6, 41.3, 60.3

Even with two instances in 41.3, that still makes a total of eight. Which one am I missing?

 

[hmesker]

4-0, 14-1, 25-2, 30-3, 34-6, 38-6, 41-3 (2x), 60-3

Be careful with using R&K as a dictionary; the given meanings are often far from complete and sometimes they are more interpretation than translation. Ze 則 has more meanings than the ones given by R&K. According to the 王力古漢語字典 dictionary:

- 法則. Rule, law
- 副詞。表示肯定. Adverb. Expressing approval, affirmation
- 連詞。1. 表示因果. Conjunction. 1. Expressing cause and effect. ('A則B', A leads to B) 2. 表示對比. Expressing contrast (for this usage the character often appears twice in a sentence; see 41.3) 3. 表示發現. Expressing finding, realization, notice
- 量詞。文一條為一則(後起義). Measure word (but this is a later later meaning, '後起義')

Harmen.

 

[Sparhawk]

Anyway, here's my list: 4, 14.1, 25.2, 30.3, 38.6, 41.3, 60.3

Even with two instances in 41.3, that still makes a total of eight. Which one am I missing?

Pssst, Dobro... Shhh, let's keep this down and quiet; this is Luis' dragon, Ny... I know his password for Clarity... I have a secret for you but don't tell Luis you heard this from me; the bastard also likes chilled dragon meat, sashimi style, and lots of wasabi. That wizard knows of many secret places only the darkest of Fang Shih know about. The site he uses is here and the line you are missing is 34.6...

Oh, and I don't use emoticons, like that idiot...

 

[Sparhawk]

Hey!!! No fair, Harmen!! I risk my life to tell Dobro a secret and you jump in before me, while I was typing?

 

[hmesker]

Hey!!! No fair, Harmen!! I risk my life to tell Dobro a secret and you jump in before me, while I was typing?

Mr. dragon is easily irritated, eh? Don't blame it on me that Luis isn't giving you your daily human sacrifice.

HM

 

[Sparhawk]

Mr. dragon is easily irritated, eh? Don't blame it on me that Luis isn't giving you your daily human sacrifice.

HM

Well, you know how that goes, Harmen, the cheapo wizard only pays me with credit cards while I prefer virgins... Let's see..., hmmm, plastic; virgins; plastic; virgins; plastic; virgins... Yes, I definitely prefer virgins... I have good reasons to be irritated. You've got a better offer? You pay me with virgins and I'm yours...

 

[hmesker]

I have a box of second-hand virgins who were only used once. Will that do?

HM

 

[Sparhawk]

I have a box of second-hand virgins who were only used once. Will that do?

HM

What are you? A feudal lord? I pass, not "virgin enough" for me. Are they a "little" pregnant too? Gee, I have my high standards. Dutch merchants!! Can't trust the lot...

 

[hmesker]

Well, sir, then I kindly remind you of the 6th line of hexagram 1, which in most translations is not accurately translated (according to my high standards), but these wrong translations fit your current attitude aptly.

HM

 

[Sparhawk]

Well, sir, then I kindly remind you of the 6th line of hexagram 1, which in most translations is not accurately translated (according to my high standards), but these wrong translations fit your current attitude aptly.

HM

Yeah, my mother wrote that line after my father!! You know how that goes, we are not that different...

 

[dobro p]

Pssst, Dobro... Shhh, let's keep this down and quiet; this is Luis' dragon, Ny... I know his password for Clarity... I have a secret for you but don't tell Luis you heard this from me; the bastard also likes chilled dragon meat, sashimi style, and lots of wasabi. That wizard knows of many secret places only the darkest of Fang Shih know about. The site he uses is here and the line you are missing is 34.6...

Oh, and I don't use emoticons, like that idiot...

Hey, for a dragon, you're pretty alright - thanks.

By the way, when you next see Luis, toast his toes a bit and tell him I found this on that site: "The decision to follow the parsing of Harvard-Yenching does not mean I necessarily agree with it, I simply wished to faithfully reproduce this text." And he has the nerve to call me a parsing libertine! Ha!

Oh...and I would indulge you in your breakfast preferences and supply you with a virgin, but I've never met one. How about a Big Mac instead?

 

[dobro p]

4-0, 14-1, 25-2, 30-3, 34-6, 38-6, 41-3 (2x), 60-3

Be careful with using R&K as a dictionary; the given meanings are often far from complete and sometimes they are more interpretation than translation. Ze 則 has more meanings than the ones given by R&K. According to the 王力古漢語字典 dictionary:

- 法則. Rule, law
- 副詞。表示肯定. Adverb. Expressing approval, affirmation
- 連詞。1. 表示因果. Conjunction. 1. Expressing cause and effect. ('A則B', A leads to B) 2. 表示對比. Expressing contrast (for this usage the character often appears twice in a sentence; see 41.3) 3. 表示發現. Expressing finding, realization, notice
- 量詞。文一條為一則(後起義). Measure word (but this is a later later meaning, '後起義')

Harmen.

Thanks, Harmen. Yeah, I use RK, but I also use BH (Brad's lexicon) and every version of the Yi I've got as well. It's the overlaps that I look for - when ALL versions I've got pretty much agree on a term, I know it's gold. Shaughnessy's the REAL litmus test lol.

I think I want a copy of that dictionary you used.

 

[hmesker]

Let's give this thread back to Dobro, shall we. Sorry for the intermezzo Dobro!

Harmen.

 

[hmesker]

Ah. There you are already.

HM

 

[Sparhawk]

"The decision to follow the parsing of Harvard-Yenching does not mean I necessarily agree with it, I simply wished to faithfully reproduce this text." And he has the nerve to call me a parsing libertine! Ha!

Now you know why wizards try to keep secrets: they don't want to be disputed with learned opinions!

By the way, I pass on the Big Macs; they give me gas and not precisely the one I use for flaming...

 

[Sparhawk]

Let's give this thread back to Dobro, shall we. Sorry for the intermezzo Dobro!


Harmen.

Sorry about that, Dobro and Harmen. I took care of that double crossing dragon and sent him back to find its own virgins. Good luck to him, although I expect to see him back, with its tail between the hind legs...

 

[Sparhawk]

Thanks, Harmen. Yeah, I use RK, but I also use BH (Brad's lexicon) and every version of the Yi I've got as well. It's the overlaps that I look for - when ALL versions I've got pretty much agree on a term, I know it's gold. Shaughnessy's the REAL litmus test lol.

Have you tried Rutt's?

 

[hmesker]

I think I want a copy of that dictionary you used.

Ehrm, you are aware that it is a C-C dictionary? I mean, I consider it a must-have, but I didn't think you were into Chinese sources.

Otherwise look here.

Harmen.

 

[dobro p]

Nope, hadn't even heard of it.

Is my ignorance showing?

AGAIN?

lol

 

[hmesker]

when ALL versions I've got pretty much agree on a term, I know it's gold.

But most versions just follow tradition. I mean, If fourteen men wear pants on their heads, does that mean that pants are meant to be worn on the head? Why take quantity as a measure of quality?

Harmen.

 

[Sparhawk]

Perhaps, Freelax is easier to order from as it uses an English checkout basket. I have ordered from them before (as Harmen has) and I know they are reliable. I've never ordered from the other one, though I trust Harmen on that.

 

[dobro p]

But most versions just follow tradition. I mean, If fourteen men wear pants on their heads, does that mean that pants are meant to be worn on the head? Why take quantity as a measure of quality?

Harmen.

You're right. I'm transferring a 'skill' I've learned from the study of the world's scriptures. It's the same approach - if they're saying the same thing in the Bible and the Digha Nikaya and the Upanishads and the Koran, then it's almost certainly true. But you're right about translations - that's about traditition, not enlightenment.

Does this mean I can't wear my pants on my head anymore?

 

[dobro p]

Perhaps, Freelax is easier to order from as it uses an English checkout basket. I have ordered from them before (as Harmen has) and I know they are reliable. I've never ordered from the other one, though I trust Harmen on that.

Gee...53 dollars. Even *I* can afford that.

 

[hmesker]

Does this mean I can't wear my pants on my head anymore?

Of course you can! There is even a website devoted to this artistic practice! Express yourself!

HM

 

[dobro p]

I mean, If fourteen men wear pants on their heads, does that mean that pants are meant to be worn on the head?

\

Actually, if fourteen men wore pants on their head, I'd think they were members of this site...

 

[bradford]

Ze2 is more complex than just causality, but it does imply a sequitur of some sort.
My matix works as an electronic concordance if you use the Mathews number (6746)
as the search term.

ze2 6746 906a 18+7 04.0 (to be) accorded, as a result/rule, deserved, due (to), justified, principled, resulting from, warranted; (a, the) criterion, example, consequence, given(s), guideline, law, measure, model, norm, (due) order, pattern, precedent, principle, reason, regulation, rule, standard, system (s); consequence result (of), order of things; (to) become, come to be, deserve, entail, give rise to, imply, lead to, mean, imitate, merit, precede, result in, warrant, (s, ed, ing); from having, since, but otherwise/beyond this;
is then; (and, so) (will) accordingly, after that, consequently, immediately, necessarily, normally, since, so, subsequently, then, thereby, therefore, thereupon, thus, usually; will (then) be(come); and consequent ... ; in accord(ance) with this; in that case/event, in due course/order; it follows that; as, when ... happens/occurs; if...then; given (that)/when/with ... then; but if, otherwise

 

[dobro p]

My matrix works as an electronic concordance if you use the Mathews number (6746)as the search term.

Hey, I never knew about being able to do a search on a pdf file! That's really useful - thanks. Now I've got two electronic concordances that I didn't know I had. A good day.

 

[dobro p]

Perhaps, Freelax is easier to order from as it uses an English checkout basket. I have ordered from them before (as Harmen has) and I know they are reliable. I've never ordered from the other one, though I trust Harmen on that.

I tried ordering the book from Frelax, and they say the order's complete, but the online order form didn't ask for my VISA number, despite the fact that it said payment was via VISA card. So presumably the confirmation email will ask for my VISA number. But my understanding is that putting VISA numbers in emails is pretty dodgy - there's no encoding. What happened when you ordered from Frelax?