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states of mind for the yi

noxlux

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Hello,

which states of minds have you found most useful when approaching the yi?

should one enter something close to the dreamstate and allow the verses to guide the content of the "dream"?

Noxlux
 

jilt

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That is very diffucult to say, and opinions differ on this I think. But in my experience a normal concentration is enough. Later, when you bring it to mind before sleeping it will be a guide in your dreams, but then you need experience in understanding the dream and the symbols. It is a long road to learn.
It is said that yarrow-stalks divination goes with concentration.
There are sytems of guided meditation that can be a great help in understanding.

At the other hand, sometimes everything goes very well without any preparations and concentration. The yi simply helps. It depends on the situation.
 

fkegan

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Yi Oracle Spirit operates upon a Need to Know basis...

Hi Noxlux,
In general, I find a personal need to know is the most useful in approaching the Yi. Beyond that, all is a matter of style or taste and individual choice. If you follow what you need from the Yi Oracle you generally find your most appropriate answer.

Frank
 

heylise

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"Yi Oracle Spirit operates upon a Need to Know basis..."

Short, clear, to the point.. I love it!
 

Sparhawk

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I like that too. Concise and, I believe, true.
 

Sparhawk

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please, explain (something like 52-4?)

Bert, when opinions are opened with an "absolutely not", why bother? On this subject, it would become a discussion akin to those between theists and atheists... :brickwall:
 

pantherpanther

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please, explain (something like 52-4?)


In reference to " Yi Oracle Spirit operates upon a Need to Know basis...",
not the Hexagram (which may be read, one one level, as a precise exercise to practice , culminating in stillness or tranquility*). For myself, it is a cheap or prideful
statement (and attitude) to presume the "Yi" (or the Buddha and so on ) "operates on a Need to Know basis". I may need them but they don't need me.

* 52.6 :"One is at rest, not merely in a small, circumscribed way in regard to matters of detail, but one has also a general resignation in regard to life as a whole, and this
confers peace and good fortune in relation to every individual matter." (Wilhelm)
 
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jilt

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perhaps both can be true then: Need to know-base presumes that there is some kind of plan for you, that is true indeed.
But You surely don't know if they don't need yo, that is also an attitude. It may well be that we are part of the exchange-process, that we together make the big mind and the big mind makes us.
Anyway, it is good to consider hex 52 in this case.
 

jilt

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Bert, when opinions are opened with an "absolutely not", why bother? On this subject, it would become a discussion akin to those between theists and atheists... :brickwall:

yes, I realize now.
 

Trojina

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In reference to " Yi Oracle Spirit operates upon a Need to Know basis...",
not the Hexagram (which may be read, one one level, as a precise exercise to practice , culminating in stillness or tranquility*). For myself, it is a cheap or prideful
statement (and attitude) to presume the "Yi" (or the Buddha and so on ) "operates on a Need to Know basis". I may need them but they don't need me.

)

Saying the Yi operates on a 'need to know' basis does not, as far as i can see, mean the Yi needs you ? I think you misunderstood the original statement. I took it as meaning it answers as you need to know not as it needs to know. So it isn't a cheap or prideful statement IMO, you just misunderstood it.
 

fkegan

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Need to know is a phrase about us humans, not Yi spirits...

Absolutely not. The slightest sense,feeling or thought that the Yi "knows" is " a bridge to nowhere".
Hi Panther,
Your missing the boat again and getting your tail in the water again!

Nowhere is not such a bad place to be, but that is a Taoist perspective.

The "Need to know" referred to is YOUR need to know. If you need insight the Yi Oracle can and generally will provide it. That is the personal reality that keeps us using it. If there wasn't a clear experience that the Yi Oracle answered questions, far fewer folks would keep consulting it.

If you can believe Socrates knows anything when he always asserted he knew nothing, I guess you need to have strange beliefs about knowing. What the Yi knows is generally just left to the private realm of the Yi spirit. Again, it is what WE need to know and how we feel the Yi Oracle helps us with that need of OURS.

Is there some deep theological basis to you insistence, The Yi cannot KNOW or just a bit of Christian misinterpretation of the notion of only One God that you are trying to preach?

Frank
 

rodaki

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perhaps both can be true then: Need to know-base presumes that there is some kind of plan for you, that is true indeed.
But You surely don't know if they don't need yo, that is also an attitude. It may well be that we are part of the exchange-process, that we together make the big mind and the big mind makes us.
Anyway, it is good to consider hex 52 in this case.

hi Bert,

I really like the idea of being part of the exchange process and sometimes I think that Yi gives us answers even before asking -perhaps this is a way this two-way exchange takes place . . was that part of what you meant?

I would really like to hear if and how people might have experienced similar give and take and in general what are your (plural) thoughts about it . .
or do you find that this idea might make us a bit too superstitious and/or suspicious of every little thing that happens around?
hope i'm not hijacking this thread . . maybe considering the state of mind in asking, should be seen in relation to the state of mind in reading?
 

solun

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one will probably get out of it what one puts into it, and that's probably dependent on the time and other things. guessing it makes sense that if it is approached with discipline, sincerity and balance or a calm, even state of mind there will probably be a greater receiving from it.

If we're in a grasping, anxoius state of mind, we 'll probably be coloring our 'answer' with what we want to hear or are afraid to hear ...

it's not always easy to 'be' in that best state though, and typically it is some sort of lack of ease in the soul that moves us to make our inquiries. I think if we are open to receiving good and not in a state of expectation it helps. Often the expectation mindset precludes what we may need to hear as 'change;' but if we are open to the gifts of heaven and earth, then change will be a part of that. It's ultimately the desire for change on some level that drives us to consult .

And i do think that we tend to think of the yi as giving mundane advice ... "buy this or that", etc. ... as it may/does respond, within the response is an underlying truth about our inquiry and the nature of what our position in regard to it is, and what we might wish to consider from that point on.

I think it's not such a good idea to consult the yi in an emergency or when under too great stress or in a condition of sudden time constraint.

And never underestimate the power of humility. True humility. 16 Ch'ien/Modesty. When we consult the yi, we are consulting the wisdom of the ancestors, or the ancient sages and it requires reverence and sincerity - as well for the sacredness of the process of the soul's evolution and it's journey in life here on earth.
 

heylise

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My experience is that my 'need to know' makes the answer of the Yi very spot-on, and also much easier to understand. Big need - clear answer, the connection of the two was always very obvious.

When I was totally upset, the Yi would calm me down, give a better overview, or very often even make me laugh. But when I ask a well-phrased question in a balanced mood, I seldom get a very clear answer. Usually something I can apply.. but with difficulty and never without any doubt. Often rather along the lines of umm.. yeah.. makes sense.. Not the big AHA!! after my confused cries.
 

Trojina

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I often find the clearest answers come when i am in total despondency...when I've given up to such an extent i really can accept any answer that comes and i don't mind what it is. This isn't that often, , but each time at the lowest of low ebbs, where i can honestly say i expected nothing, then i felt most spoken to and lifted.

This can't be so much to do with misery as it is with the fact perhaps in these despondent states, or perhaps even beyond them, that one has given up agendas, wishes, hopes that can get in the way of connection with the Yi. I do find when I'm very chirpy, I'll have lots of plans, ideas, agendas, things i want to happen buzzing around which can get in the way of hearing the Yi so well.

I'm not suggesting despondency is the ideal state to consult lol, and its not the quite the same thing as the kind of misery that can also block understanding, its more like an emptiness, not a happily come by emptiness but an emptiness of a kind...hence i guess being able to be filled or to hear.

Clear answers come in calm frames of mind too, happy frames of mind too, i just think they are especially lucid at a particular kind of low ebb of the human psyche, I've never known the Yi punch you in the teeth at such moments...it saves those for chirpier times lol... all rather 15 in a way
 
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meng

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A chirpy crab? :mischief:;)

I really see this as being relevant to the "when I am weak, then am I strong" biblical text, mentioned on another thread a short while back. I experience it much as LiSe and Trojan describe.

But need to know can be interpreted two ways. One, that my thinking mind needs to have a logical explanation, and two, that my emotional elements need some sort of reconciliation; and that doesn't always come about from logic. That could require some kind of direct contact, interpreted through emotions. Emotions become rarefied, and then change toward improvement happens on its own.

I think it is this emotional element which can be tended to best when ones own ocean is stirred up and troubled, rather than being calm and serene.
 

rodaki

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If we're in a grasping, anxoius state of mind, we 'll probably be coloring our 'answer' with what we want to hear or are afraid to hear ...

it's not always easy to 'be' in that best state though, and typically it is some sort of lack of ease in the soul that moves us to make our inquiries. I think if we are open to receiving good and not in a state of expectation it helps.

LiSe:
My experience is that my 'need to know' makes the answer of the Yi very spot-on, and also much easier to understand. Big need - clear answer, the connection of the two was always very obvious.

When I was totally upset, the Yi would calm me down, give a better overview, or very often even make me laugh. But when I ask a well-phrased question in a balanced mood, I seldom get a very clear answer. Usually something I can apply.. but with difficulty and never without any doubt. Often rather along the lines of umm.. yeah.. makes sense.. Not the big AHA!! after my confused cries.

questions, questions, questions :rolleyes:
ok, confusion is a thorny issue . . I've had both great and totally confusing answers when asking in distress . . I think the crucial difference between the two was not the degree of urgency as such, but the clarity of my need . . I mean sometimes I'm upset and my questions are running around like the rodents of 35.4, all directions at once . . you can guess what kind of answers I get . . :brickwall:
at other times I can be really upset but what I need to know is very clear and precise and then I get some awesome help! :hug:
am I getting close??

I always remember an older thread where a former member here, Val, was describing in detail the place from which she asked Yi: an empty space, no special preparation necessary, no invested demands, a need-to-know yes, but somehow a disinterested one -ok, that sounds like an oxymoron- maybe an innocent, stripped down need-to-know, a clear, open place . . A sense of childlike abandonment, trust . .

and then there is also the case of really easy going -and often very swift- Q&As . . a very matter-of-fact, over-the-counter dialogue which for me works as a charm most times :) and has given me amazing answers in all kind of questions . . yes, overworked thought often makes me loose touch with my original, bare question -but also sometimes overworking it is just what I need, provided I sweat it off, a 59.5 thing

but nothing of these is really a recipe . . me thinks the process of asking is definitely interactive . . Bruce I think it was you that had a thread asking if we are training Yi or is Yi training us . . I often wonder about it -any new insights on that front?
 
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maremaria

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I have noticed that many times, when my question is “heeeeelp” the answer is clear. Sometimes that clear that I don’t even look at the texts A couple of words come in my mind and that’s it. Some others there is a delay in the Aha moments but the answer is still clear. I mean no doubts.
When I say to Yi “heeelp” its like all my sensory organs are wide open to receive a message. I’m not resisting, I’m not analyzing, I just listen. its like that question is my last breath.the last amound of oxugen goes away with those words. Its like you empty your self in order to make a space and receive.
 
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pantherpanther

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A chirpy crab? :mischief:;)

I really see this as being relevant to the "when I am weak, then am I strong" biblical text, mentioned on another thread a short while back. I experience it much as LiSe and Trojan describe.

But need to know can be interpreted two ways. One, that my thinking mind needs to have a logical explanation, and two, that my emotional elements need some sort of reconciliation; and that doesn't always come about from logic. That could require some kind of direct contact, interpreted through emotions. Emotions become rarefied, and then change toward improvement happens on its own.

I think it is this emotional element which can be tended to best when ones own ocean is stirred up and troubled, rather than being calm and serene.

What you are saying relates to "learning" as a process. Bert's citing Hexagram 52 was along the same line. I suggested 52 may be read, in one way, as a practical exercise, say a "daily discipline," not unlike that found in many teachings.
The aim of such disciplines is to reach "a better state." The "need" or wish is not just "to know," but "to be"; that is , to be related to finer energies or a higher level. (You write of "direct contact, interpreted through the emotions")

A practice is a process involving several stages. Separation is the beginning : turn the attention inward. My personal effort may enable me to separate enough from my ordinary state of automatic, shifting thoughts/feelings/sensations to make a space for the functions to relate naturally in a balanced way. The mind cannot communicate with the feeling except through the body. If thinking, feeling and sensation aren't related, they function without my awareness: they use me , and I can live my whole life unconsciously, being taken my them, believing I am what they do. Turning attention inward can free some energy they would otherwise spend "for me," enabling me to become more present and open to finer impressions and the unknown, a higher level. A relation to another level can be cultivated through my inner attention to an Attention that is not mine. At the same time I need to be aware of my functions and how they spend my energy, as they must. Not allowing my functions - the ever- present resistance -to take all my energy offers me the possibilty of learning "to be." Your comment is relevant here: I think it is this emotional element which can be tended to best when ones own ocean is stirred up and troubled, rather than being calm and serene.

An exercise or technique is not enough. I expect many devoted pupils of the Buddha worked for years under his guidance but didn't grow much. The wish to be may or may not be strong or sincere enough.It can be cultivated. It can grow or be lost. Some kind of sacrifice is needed.I don't know "how" to do it - it is impossible yet possible. Every effort counts, although over many years practice, there may be few times when results appear.As you say, "Emotions become rarefied, and then change toward improvement happens on its own." The letting go and sacrifice was sufficient. But I don't "know" how to repeat it. I can learn,gradually, what I lack and where I fail through my own effort. But I don't know "what I need," Experience teaches me that it never gets easier.

The Yi has been available to all and some take more, some less. There are many teachings, schools and teachers. Some are are more complete than others, and some are more suitable for one individual than another.

When I wrote, " I may need them but they don't need me." (in reference to complete teachings, as the Yi, the Buddha et al.), I meant that if my wish "to be," to be "free," is sincere and my efforts right I can relate to another level of being. But the tail doesn't wag the dog.

G I Gurdjieff offers some practical thoughts:


ONE MUST LEARN TO PRAY, JUST AS ONE MUST LEARN EVERYTHING ELSE. Whoever knows how to pray and is able to concentrate in the proper way, his prayer can give results. But it must be understood that there are different prayers and that their results are different. This is known even from ordinary divine service. But when we speak of prayer or of the results of prayer we always imply only one kind of prayer—petition, or we think that petition can be united with all other kinds of prayers.… Most prayers have nothing in common with petitions. I speak of ancient prayers; many of them are much older than Christianity. These prayers are, so to speak, recapitulations; by repeating them aloud or to himself a man endeavors to experience what is in them, their whole content, with his mind and his feeling.

(IN SEARCH OF THE MIRACULOUS, p.300.)

I think the same principles apply to divination using the Yi as many Orientals practice it: they include work with the body, mind and feelings.
 
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meng

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pantherpanther, thanks for your thoughts on this. I'm nodding in agreement as I read. Also about the limitations of a practice or practices. And also about the necessity to connect to the body's alert systems, ie emotions, but that "I am not that", though I am.

Your mention of 52 is interesting, because after I posted those comments and another on another thread about stripping down to essential being, I got to tracking footprints to what I'd consider to be the origin and core, and too arrived at the mountain. However, the mountain wasn't sufficient as a core, because it was inert.

Then, 26 arose as the answer, as pre-incarnate knowledge. Heaven within the mountain, as though all things existing as (creative) potential before they become manifest. It reminds me of the monolith in 2001, a Space Odyssey.
 

pantherpanther

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pantherpanther, thanks for your thoughts on this. I'm nodding in agreement as I read. Also about the limitations of a practice or practices. And also about the necessity to connect to the body's alert systems, ie emotions, but that "I am not that", though I am.

Your mention of 52 is interesting, because after I posted those comments and another on another thread about stripping down to essential being, I got to tracking footprints to what I'd consider to be the origin and core, and too arrived at the mountain. However, the mountain wasn't sufficient as a core, because it was inert.

Then, 26 arose as the answer, as pre-incarnate knowledge. Heaven within the mountain, as though all things existing as (creative) potential before they become manifest. It reminds me of the monolith in 2001, a Space Odyssey.

meng,
It was Bert who brought the relevance of Hexagram 52.
Regarding the "inertness of the mountain," I recently quoted what a teacher said to a friend - a lawyer, a real "lawyer" : "There''s the mountain. What are you waiting for, a nice day?" I suppose it takes enough "wish" to begin - and a strong mind to continue. Is the mountain inert?

Perhaps "essence" (or pre-incarnate knowledge) is sacred. I recall when the teacher was asked what had been most difficult for him, he replied, " To accept the possbility that I might be a particle of the Creator."
 
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meng

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meng,
It was Bert who brought the relevance of Hexagram 52.
Regarding the "inertness of the mountain," I recently quoted what a teacher said to a friend - a lawyer, a real "lawyer" : "There''s the mountain. What are you waiting for, a nice day?" I suppose it takes enough "wish" to begin - and a strong mind to continue. Is the mountain inert?
Good question. Reminds me..

I quit smoking, will be two years this Nov. I took full responsibility for the necessary grit to bite through it with stubborn resolve. Mountain. However, what I first needed was the belief that I not only could, but would quit. It's hard to convince yourself that you can quit, and unless I could do that, trying to quit would likely fail. I had to first believe. And so I prayed for belief that I could quit. The rest was up to me. "Do or do not, there is no try." That was a 26 experience.
 

pantherpanther

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Good question. Reminds me..

I quit smoking, will be two years this Nov. I took full responsibility for the necessary grit to bite through it with stubborn resolve. Mountain. However, what I first needed was the belief that I not only could, but would quit. It's hard to convince yourself that you can quit, and unless I could do that, trying to quit would likely fail. I had to first believe. And so I prayed for belief that I could quit. The rest was up to me. "Do or do not, there is no try." That was a 26 experience.

Very nice example, based on real experience.

In a lighter vein,'If You Want a Mountain Adventure, Don't Climb Everest' In May journalist Billi Bierling became the first German woman to reach the summit of Mount Everest from Nepal. She was shocked at the naivete of many mountaineers and astounded that, these days, Everest base camps offer hot showers, Internet access, TVs and fresh strawberries.http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-636082,00.html
 

pantherpanther

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Frank,

Pantherpanther quote : Absolutely not. The slightest sense,feeling or thought that the Yi "knows" is " a bridge to nowhere".

Frank quote : Hi Panther,
Your missing the boat again and getting your tail in the water again!


Perhaps the "Yi Oracle spirit" sees you as the tail thinking it wags the dog?

Nowhere is not such a bad place to be, but that is a Taoist perspective.

My perspective is to ask "Who am I?" right now - what is my state at this moment.

The "Need to know" referred to is YOUR need to know. If you need insight the Yi Oracle can and generally will provide it. That is the personal reality that keeps us using it. If there wasn't a clear experience that the Yi Oracle answered questions, far fewer folks would keep consulting it.

"Who " has this "need to know" ? My "personal reality" may really want ice cream with sprinkles today, to lose weight tomorrow. That's interesting to see, although perhaps unpleasant. "If you want to lose your faith make friends with a priest" - or perhaps, with some who consult the Yi.

If you can believe Socrates knows anything when he always asserted he knew nothing, I guess you need to have strange beliefs about knowing. What the Yi knows is generally just left to the private realm of the Yi spirit. Again, it is what WE need to know and how we feel the Yi Oracle helps us with that need of OURS.

In Plato's Republic, Socrates claims knowledge learned from the Mystery teachings and the Oracles and holds them sacred - not to be profaned by revealing them to the uninitiated. "Beliefs about knowing" seems almost oxymoronic. I can, sometimes, reach the limits of what little I know, be more open to learning something new. You have visited this "private realm of the Yi spirit" and "have good relations," so to speak?

Is there some deep theological basis to your insistence, The Yi cannot KNOW or just a bit of Christian misinterpretation of the notion of only One God that you are trying to preach?

I question anyone's views on the Yi. When you say, in response to a question about what state to have when consulting the Yi, that it ' operates so-and-so,' it seems "pontifical." Perhaps well-intentioned,but also somewhat indifferent to what may be the concern of the questioner. I have read many other responses on this thread in which individuals expressed their experience with the Yi and I can relate to most of them personally.

-pp
 
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solun

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When I was totally upset, the Yi would calm me down, give a better overview, or very often even make me laugh. But when I ask a well-phrased question in a balanced mood, I seldom get a very clear answer. - heylise

All I can say heylise is ... you're lucky! When I ask all irritated and what not, I get really pissed off at the response usually, and it doesn't make any sense to me at all! :shrug:
There are times when it makes perfect sense and it does tend to 'right' me in terms of my attitude or perspective on my question, but that all depends on my state of mind and receptivity.

Anyway, it's usually when we are in that sort of agitated 'whatever' state that we do consult.

What percentage of our questions, I wonder, are about 'needing to know' and what percentage are about 'wanting' ? Don't we ask because we need to know in regard something that we want to effectively change? And change to our own design?

Still, many may ask the yi questions thinking ... how will the yi change me or my understanding of my position in these affairs ... which is most helpful for me - I seem to have better success with it on those terms.

pantherpanther, very nice Gjurdjieff quote on prayer - an insighful comparison.
meng, your understanding was also very helpful.
all the experiences and insights posted here are.
 

solun

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I am astounded to read about the Everest base camps. Someday there will be a starbucks on the summit ... ? ghastly.

Anyway, it just confirms my suspicions about the whole mountain climbing scene. There are those who seek to either reckon with or commune with the elements, and there are those who are looking for some sort of confirmation that only a showcase can give them. Whatever their trip is ..
I recall an old cartoon I saw once with a hermit on the summit of a mountain. As the climber reached the edge and peered over the top at the hermit, he sees a cup with a sign next to it that reads :
'Meaning of Life' $2.95

I guess it can get pretty cheap 'up there'. It's the starbucks that'll cost you! ;) And don't they have some meaning of life written on their cups anyway? I wonder, is their coffee fair trade certified? just musing I guess ... :rolleyes:

As for mountain climbing, etc. ~ each to his or her own mountain.

kudos to your inner hermit

go to http://www.orthodoxphotos.comchoose your favorite hermit!

I like elder Gabriel ... he has a no nonsense look about him

7.jpg
 
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