Superior/Inferior Questions

[ddely]

I understand that we should all strive to be the superior person, but from what I've read thus far about the I-Ching's explanation of the superior/inferior man, my thoughts on this are that in each situation during our lives we are either the superior or inferior. That we are neither one all the time, but both at different times in our lives depending on our actions and behaviors pertaining to each situation.

So if I read an answer given by the oracle, I shouldn't automatically assume that I'm the superior, or inferior for that matter, but look at my actions and behaviors for that particular situation to see which one I am being in order to interpret correctly? Am I understanding this correctly, or does the "superior man" always refer to the person inquiring of the oracle?

 

[Sparhawk]

Hi Ddely,

I'd like to suggest you search the forum, and elsewhere, for the terms "junzi" and "xiaoren", the terms that are usually translated as "Superior Man" and "Inferior Man". There is a lot of baggage that exudes from the Wilhelm translation and interpretations and people has, almost from the beginning, associated those terms with the Confucian school, with all that brings, positive and negative, to any discussion. Even though the Confucian exegesis has, let's say, "refined" and "idealized" the terms, they are, by no means, the only ones to have used them and commented on.

IMO, it is a mistreatment of the actual Chinese terms to translate them, and popularize them, as Superior/Inferior Men. The actual concept behind them is very difficult to grasp but don't just hang on to symplistic translations. There's much more that meets the eye, and heart, on those and is a big part of the journey to understand the Yijing a little.

 

[ddely]

Thanks, sparhawk! I'll research under those terms.

 

[lienshan]

Superior/Inferior ... or maybe:

Dao De Jing chapter 41 (my own poor translation):

Superior scholars learning about Dao
diligent and walk it
In the middle scholars learning about Dao
seems to exist seems to die
Below scholars learning about Dao
great laughter go to no laughter not having enough as to strive Dao

Guodian Laozi book B (my own poor translation):

Superior scholars learning about Dao
diligent can walk to them in the middle
In the middle scholars learning about Dao
seems to learn seems to disappear
Below scholars learning about Dao
great laughter go to not great laughter not having enough as to strive Dao

The first quote is from the received daoist book. Three groups are mentioned, but I read it as if only two groups exist: the superiors and the rest, because the group in the middle is imaginary?

The second quote is from a daoist-critical book found among primary confucian books in a philosophers grave dating ca. 316 BC. The superiors and them in the middle are mixed together as I read this quote!

lienshan

 

[ddely]

I noticed in the book I'm using, "The Original I-Ching Oracle, The Pure and Complete Texts with Concordance" by Ritsema and Sabbadini, some of the hexgrams will refer to three of the terms in the same hexagram (I haven't run across the use of the term xiaoren yet, but I'm certain I will at some point) ...junzi, superior, and inferior, and it explains the junzi as, "ideal of a person who orders his/her life in accordance with dao rather than willful intention, and uses divination in this spirit"

So when reading the hexagrams, should I be thinking in terms of junzi where it reads "superior" and xiaoren where it reads "inferior", rather than thinking in terms of 4 separate meanings? (i.e., junzi, xiaoren, superior, and inferior)

 

[Sparhawk]

(I haven't run across the use of the term xiaoren yet, but I'm certain I will at some point)

The term xiaoren appears in:

7.6
12.2
14.3
20.1
23.6
33.4
34.3
40.5
49.6
63.3

There is another term you may want to add that doesn't command as much attention as Junzi or Xiaoren: Daren (great person) in

1.2.5
6
12.2.5
39.6 and judgment
45
46
47
49.5
57

 

[ddely]

...There is another term you may want to add that doesn't command as much attention as Junzi or Xiaoren: Daren (great person)...

When putting the translations into perspective, what is the defining difference between a daren and a junzi?

 

[Sparhawk]

When putting the translations into perspective, what is the defining difference between a daren and a junzi?

Hmmm..., how should I put it? In my mind, a very personal opinion at that, a "daren" has a more pedestrian connotation than "junzi". That is, it is a much more shallow term than "junzi". "Junzi" is a very rich concept. It is possible for a "daren" to have some, or even many, of the virtues of a "junzi" but a "junzi" has all the virtues of an ideal "daren," and more.

Not sure if this is clear...

 

[Sparhawk]

Oh no no no Luis. The daren is much much greater than the junzi. The daren is someone who rises above his age, like the first man on the moon. The junzi is a decent person, but common-or-garden compared with the daren. The daren is a Nietzsche or a Socrates, the junzi is the man who returned your wallet when you lost it in the street.

We'll agree to differ on this...

 

[Sparhawk]

I don't mind agreeing to differ, but are you averse to persuasion on the issue?

The great man is clearly someone who has risen to prominence, look at hexagram 1 for instance. The great man of the fifth line, for example, in later times was be seen as the emperor. The great man is also often synonymous with the sage. The junzi is more of a local warlord.

Not averse, just too difficult for you to achieve. Furthermore, if we go by the two short arguments presented, I would say nigh impossible. I have plenty of arguments to counter "that", which I take as a rather simplistic assessment of a junzi (and daren). However, I'm afraid it will have to wait. See, the number of those students of the Yijing in the West that have crossed the gate of divination and looked beyond, at the actual forest behind it, both in academia and on the street, is very limited and most are known to each other, be it casually, by reference or by the proverbial "six degree of separation". You seem to be one of those and I respect you for that. Furthermore, there is much that I agree with you--sans the sanctimoneus barbs that come with most of it, that is. However, I will not engage in such discussions, which I consider to be above the "love me/love me not" level, with someone that remains anonymous. More so when I get the distinct feeling that you are known to me but chooses to keep me in obscurity. Perhaps I'm completely wrong in that but, if true, I find it most distateful.

My name is Luis Andrade and I own my words and opinions; I live in New Jersey, about 45 miles south of Philadelphia and have a decently known internet footprint under both "Sparhawk" and "Luis Andrade". You are welcome to search for me. Hey, if persistent, you may even find my actual address and phone number.

 

[meng]

I have no idea which is right, technically, but I take it more or less as junzi being the personal and daren as the archetypal. A junzi is human sized, and daren is a hero/god. one is really no higher than the other, they're just different manifestations of the same thing, but projecting from different dimensions or positions. I'd think it is the junzi who imagines the daren, but it may be the other way around.

 

[heylise]

My nephew lost his father in WW-2, when he was 4 years old. He made the friendly old gardener to his daren, by lack of a father as example of how a man is meant to be. He himself was a 4-year old junzi, eager to learn everything he needed to grow up to a man.

LiSe

 

[martin]

I'd think it is the junzi who imagines the daren, but it may be the other way around.

Reminds me of a dream that Jung had, in which he was contemplated by a yogi.
I don't remember exactly but I think the idea was that he only existed in the imagination or mind of the yogi.
Similar to the idea that we only exist in the mind of God. We are thoughts of God.

So, let's see, the junzi is a thought of the daren who is a thought of the junzi who is a thought of the daren who ..
Who was first, chicken-daren or egg-junzi?

 

[meng]

Yes, and the story of Vishnu dreaming the Universe. I find it a somehow a comforting idea, perhaps something like 2.2. I mean, we are so convinced that what we say and do is so important, as are the thoughts we entertain and contrive. What a funny picture to see, we are the dream dreaming of the dreamer.

 

[getojack]

is this my life or just a dream? ever had one of those dreams where you wake up and say "damn that was a weird dream" and then you start doing your normal everyday stuff, then something weird happens and you're like "wait, this is a dream" and then you wake up? who's to say this isn't just a dream at a higher resolution.... matrix-like?

when you dream, you think that dream person is you, right? but then you wake up and realize it wasn't really you... or was it? in that dream reality, it was really you, with real feelings and everything... but when you woke up, this physical existence was really you and the dream you becomes less important.

going back to the original question, i think ddely is basically right that sometimes you're the daren, sometimes you're the xiaoren, and sometimes you're the junzi. and we go merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily....

 

[Sparhawk]

going back to the original question, i think ddely is basically right that sometimes you're the daren, sometimes you're the xiaoren, and sometimes you're the junzi. and we go merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily....

I like that!