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Takashima Ekidan

pocossin

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Don't you believe that Takashima allowed himself some freedom from methods maybe in search of desired results?

The changeless casting on p.84 is the last in a series of four casting in which the others have the standard one changing line. I think it unlikely that Takashima would have experimented with casting in the midst of a session.
 

nahalie m

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Hi Pocossin,

Had I found out the "thank you" button I'd have pressed it...
Mind quoting your source for this Takashima biographical information ?

Regards, Nathalie
 

nahalie m

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Hi Pocossin,

Would it seem extravagant, given the detailed information he extrudes from the Exposition and Interpretation, that he wouldn't care too much about the changing line?
Have you also noticed that depending on cases, he'll take the resulting hexagram into consideratin or not?
 

nahalie m

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Hex. 12 first few words

Hi all,

Does it make any sense in English the few words Takashima uses to introduce hex. 12, namely: "Hi is against humanity"?

This is puzzling and perplexing to me.

Regards, N.
 

pocossin

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Hi Pocossin,

Had I found out the "thank you" button I'd have pressed it...
Mind quoting your source for this Takashima biographical information ?

Regards, Nathalie

I think you mean the information I gave in message #57, titled An Edited Takashima Biography. My source is given in the link at the top of that message:

http://mybookshop.0catch.com/xxjul10.htm

This webpage is now cluttered with popup garbage you'll need to delete to get to the text. Then search for "Takashima" to read the biographical information. The webpage appears to be the work of an idiosyncratic Japanese bibliophile who writes massive blocks of text in a stream of consciousness manner. I am unable to check the biographical information, but I found no contradiction with what I knew from elsewhere and believe it to be accurate.

Sorry about the missing "Thanks" button. Its random appearance is one of the mysteries of Clarity :)

Tom
 
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pocossin

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Hi Pocossin,

Would it seem extravagant, given the detailed information he extrudes from the Exposition and Interpretation, that he wouldn't care too much about the changing line?
Exposition = Tuanzhun (Wings 1 & 2)
Interpretation = Xiangzhuan (Wings 3 & 4)

Takashima does often consider the changing line. For example, the Shipwreck of Mrs. Oura under hexagram 59:

☴ ☰
☵ ☵


59.4 > 6

Negative IV. Dissipates [the sorrows of] the multitude; perfectly lucky. On dissipating, there is formed a hill. This is beyond the comprehension of an ordinary intellect.

"This 'hexagram consists of the upper complement of Xun or 'wood' and the lower of Kan or 'water,' so that this represents a ship floating on the sea. If she is floating, she is in no danger. Again the 'Negative [yin] IV says, Dissipates [the sorrow of] the multitude; perfectly lucky. On dissipating, there is formed a hill. This is beyond the comprehension of an ordinary intellect.' 'Dissipates the multitude' means that she is apart from others and in no great danger. 'On dissipating, there is formed a hill , means that she is on a hill, and is no longer in the ship. 'This is beyond the comprehension' means that it is not to be much concerned about. Thus the wreck of the ship will not be a serious one, and though wrecked, Mrs. Oura will be safe."

For the hill in line 59.4 Bradford has "the royal stockpile". Legge has "a mound". I think it could be a burial mound.


Have you also noticed that depending on cases, he'll take the resulting hexagram into consideration or not?

Yes, as in the Mrs. Oura example. Takashima divines with great freedom.
 
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pocossin

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Hi all,

Does it make any sense in English the few words Takashima uses to introduce hex. 12, namely: "Hi is against humanity"?

Yes, it makes good sense to me. Hexagram 12 represents a time when unethical persons are in highest office.

Hi is against humanity; not advantageous to the constancy of honourable men; the great go away and the small come. Exposition. "Hi is against humanity ; not advantageous to the constancy of honourable men ; the great go away and the small come "—in other words, the heaven and the earth do not harmonize. The superior and the inferior do not meet together, and there is not a state under the heaven. The inner complement [trigram] is negative, and the other complement is positive. The inner complement is weak, and the outer complement is strong. The inner complement is a small-minded man, and the outer complement is an honourable man. The principles of small-minded men prosper, and the principles of honourable men perish.
 

nahalie m

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Yes, it makes good sense to me. Hexagram 12 represents a time when unethical persons are in highest office.

Hi Tom,

Thanks for your replies. Still having a problem with "against humanity", the phrase itself. Languagewise does it sound correct?
If I translated into French that would be odd, very odd. Part of my problem here is I'm trying not to (over)interpret the original words. :duh:
 

nahalie m

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Exposition = Tuanzhun (Wings 1 & 2)
Interpretation = Xiangzhuan (Wings 3 & 4)
Yes, as in the Mrs. Oura example. Takashima divines with great freedom.

Have you yet read Takashima's misinterpretation for hex. 3?
 

nahalie m

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Hex. 12

Hi again Tom
Yes, it makes good sense to me. Hexagram 12 represents a time when unethical persons are in highest office.

To reflect further, my assumption here is that the reason why hex.12 is referred to as "stagnation" is that heaven being the outer trigram and earth being the inner trigramm, there is no qi mingling hence no movement, no dynamics. It's static in essence. From the book, all things are created because earth and heaven qi mingle. I hence assume that no mingling=no things created.

That brings me back to Takashima words "Hi is against humanity" and the question that arises as to his choice of words. As I said earlier if I were to translate that into French that would sound odd, but does it sound odd or does it imply anything in English?
 

pocossin

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Have you yet read Takashima's misinterpretation for hex. 3?

Would you please indicate which words are misinterpreted? The translation into English is by Shigetake Sugiura, who could have been translating directly from the Chinese, but Sugiura would have consulted with Takashima, I think.

Another matter. The French scholar Michel Revon studied with Takashima, and it may be that his notes are still waiting to be discovered. If they exist, these notes could help to clarify problems in the Ekidan.

Thank you for making available hexagram 14 from the Ekidan when there was nothing on the Internet. The 'bamboo cage' caused a great stir here :)

Tom
 

pocossin

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Hi again Tom


To reflect further, my assumption here is that the reason why hex.12 is referred to as "stagnation" is that heaven being the outer trigram and earth being the inner trigramm, there is no qi mingling hence no movement, no dynamics. It's static in essence. From the book, all things are created because earth and heaven qi mingle. I hence assume that no mingling=no things created.

That brings me back to Takashima words "Hi is against humanity" and the question that arises as to his choice of words. As I said earlier if I were to translate that into French that would sound odd, but does it sound odd or does it imply anything in English?

To me, "Hi is against humanity" sounds idiomatic. The word 'against' has a wide range of meanings from 'leaning against' to 'countering the effects of'. Some possible equivalents:

Hi is inhospitable to humanity.
Hi is unfavorable for humanity.
Hi is not conducive to humanity.

I understand 'humanity' as the humane conduct of government. In Hi there is no mingling of the spiritual and the material, and pragmatism and self-interest dominate. As you say, nothing vital is created.

Bradford (vol 1, p 130) says: "12.0 Pi is often translated 'Obstruction' but this misses the point entirely. Here the two forces are going their own separate ways: the problem is that they are not interfering with each other."
 

nahalie m

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Would you please indicate which words are misinterpreted? The translation into English is by Shigetake Sugiura, who could have been translating directly from the Chinese, but Sugiura would have consulted with Takashima, I think.

I refer to the last example given for hex. 3 where Takashima explains how he caused rather grave prejudice to one of his former ckerks by interfering with his brother's casting and interpretation.

Another matter. The French scholar Michel Revon studied with Takashima.
My memory fails me at times but isn't Michel Revon known under the name of Hatamen? If so in an article from La revue de Paris, dated 1905 (check link here if you wish to read: http://gallica.bnf.fr/searchInPeriodique?spe=hatamen&arkPress=cb34404247s/date&lang=FR), he discovers Takashima's work in a library, there is no mention of him taking classes from Takashima in person. Have you more info on this ?


Thank you for making available hexagram 14 from the Ekidan
My pleasure. I owe much to my numerous internet friends. :rofl:

Nathalie
 

nahalie m

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Hi Tom,

To me, "Hi is against humanity" sounds idiomatic. The word 'against' has a wide range of meanings from 'leaning against' to 'countering the effects of'. Some possible equivalents:

Hi is inhospitable to humanity.
Hi is unfavorable for humanity.
Hi is not conducive to humanity.

Thanks for the explanation, I'll have to find my way out of it. Or sleep over it;)
 

pocossin

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isn't Michel Revon known under the name of Hatamen?

Not likely. Revon was a major scholar of his era. He knew Takashima personally and studied with him.

Revon (Michel) LL.D., D.Lit. Late Professor of Law in the Imperial University of Tokyo and Legal Adviser to the Japanese Governent; Professor of History of the Civilization of the Far East in the University of Paris; Author of Le Shinntoisme [,] Ancestor-worship and Cult of the Dead.

Revon wrote the article on Japanese Divination in Hastings' Encyclopedia Of Religion And Ethics. He describes his relationship with and admiration for Takashima there, but not in detail. My conjecture is that notes from their encounter may still exist.

If so in an article from La revue de Paris, dated 1905 (check link here if you wish to read: http://gallica.bnf.fr/searchInPeriod...2Fdate&lang=FR), he discovers Takashima's work in a library

My guess is that Hatamen discovered the English Ekidan in a library in Paris :) Even with my poor French, Hatamen's article appears to be based solely on the Ekidan we have.
 

pocossin

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I refer to the last example given for hex. 3 where Takashima explains how he caused rather grave prejudice to one of his former ckerks by interfering with his brother's casting and interpretation.

Oh, now I see. You mean this:
TAKASHIMA'S MIS-INTERPRETATION.

As I am an earnest admirer of the principles of the "Eki," many of my relatives are fond of it, and my younger brother Tokuemon too. A former clerk of mine came to my brother's at Kobikicho, Tokyo, one day, and asked him to divine the good or evil of his intended change of business, as he was going to do, being hard up by the commercial inactivity prevalent at that time. My brother took the "sticks" and obtained the "Negative VI" of "Chun (3)." He gave the following interpretation:—

[3.6 > 42]

"It says, 'Mounts a horse, but is unable to advance; and bloody tears are pouring down.' The hexagram of 'Chun' is the emblem of a great difficulty; not easy when staying, and drowning in the "water" when going. It is the emblem of having no other course to be taken, than to go astray on horseback and cry. You are now seeking a new occupation, but you can not go on well with the new one if any. Better sit down and wait for the coming of an available opportunity in future."

I happened just then to visit my brother, and on hearing him speak thus, I offered another interpretation of my own, which was as the following:—

"The interpretation of the 'Eki' should be made to be consistent with the degree of civilsation of the country. It should not be regarded as a dead thing, by merely clinging to the genera! meaning of its 'Lineations.' The present hexagram gives the emblem of being drowned in water, but we may still gain profits in it. We have diving-bells for working under the waters. If you will buy some diving-bells and engage in pearlfishery, you will undoubtedly profit yourself, as then the 'Negative VI' changes the hexagram into 'Yeki (42),' which means ' gain.' Go then, and commence this occupation without hesitation."

My words seemed to be very curious to my brother, and he seemed to be somewhat displeased; but he kept silent. The clerk was pleased and took our leave with smiles. He bought some diving-bells and began fishing. At first his emoluments were great, and I was proud to my brother of my rational interpretation. But after a few months, the clerk was visited by an incessant storm. The raging of the billows and waves greatly hindered his fishing, and he could not catch even a single shell. He was followed by a great loss, and all his capital was very nearly brought to nil.

He then came to me alone and forlorn, and complained me of his adversity. I was horror-stricken. I was very sorry to have moved the sacred words of the "Eld " arbitrarily with my imperfect wisdom, and to have made this fellow receive an awful loss. I offered him some gold, as an atonement for my fault. I was then fully assured that the words in the "Eki" must not be heedlessly looked over, and I shall never forget this lesson.

"The general disposition of the affair in question is to be distilled from the sentences to the diagram, the "Exposition," and the "Interpretation"; and the good or evil etc, of the affair or so are to be digested from the sentences to the element. Further information will be understood from a copious number of practical examples contained in the following volume."

Well, if we were perfect we wouldn't be in this world :) , and I doubt there is a diviner who has not, on occasion, let ego intrude into a reading. Takashima could not help but interfer with his brother's reading because The Spirit of the Time in Japan favored the entrepreneur. Had he followed his own principles he might have foreseen the storm because the changing complement (Water) changes to Wind.

Tom
 

nahalie m

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Hi Tom,
Not likely. Revon was a major scholar of his era. He knew Takashima personally and studied with him.
Do you mind to say what brings you to this conclusion?

Revon (Michel) LL.D., D.Lit. Late Professor of Law in the Imperial University of Tokyo and Legal Adviser to the Japanese Governent; Professor of History of the Civilization of the Far East in the University of Paris; Author of Le Shinntoisme [,] Ancestor-worship and Cult of the Dead.

He wouldn't be the first or at least the last known one to combine an interest in divination and mythical/spiritual/shamanic approaches. They actually often seem to pair.

Revon wrote the article on Japanese Divination in Hastings' Encyclopedia Of Religion And Ethics. He describes his relationship with and admiration for Takashima there, but not in detail.
Any chance that there is an online version for this?

My guess is that Hatamen discovered the English Ekidan in a library in Paris :) Even with my poor French, Hatamen's article appears to be based solely on the Ekidan we have.

In the first paragraphs, Hatamen explains how he discovered the Ekidan in a Japanese library in fact while travelling in Japan in 1901.
 

nahalie m

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H Tom,
Oh, now I see. You mean this:
Well, if we were perfect we wouldn't be in this world :) , and I doubt there is a diviner who has not, on occasion, let ego intrude into a reading. Takashima could not help but interfer with his brother's reading because The Spirit of the Time in Japan favored the entrepreneur. Had he followed his own principles he might have foreseen the storm because the changing complement (Water) changes to Wind.

Being wrong: if a diviner were never wrong or beside the point that would be odd ;-)

Interesting comment on water changing to wind.

If you've read the examples preceding this one interpretation you might have noticed that he relies more than once on the Gain aspect of the resulting hexagram. I pondered over that and came to wonder why he missed this one time.
My conjecture is that he was not the one who was asked for the divination, he took precedence over his brother without being invited to do so, which may be considered as incorrect. His bro did the casting and got a hex for which he came up with the correct answer. A third party should probably not temper with the process unless he's clearly invited to. But again as I said above, this is only conjecturing.
 

pocossin

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Do you mind to say what brings you to this conclusion [the relationship between Revon and Takashima]?

In the article he wrote for Hastings Encyclopedia, Revon says that he knew Takashima personally and studied with him.

Any chance that there is an online version for this?

Hastings Encyclopedia is a Google Book but with a partial view. I went to a college library to read Revon's article.

In the first paragraphs, Hatamen explains how he discovered the Ekidan in a Japanese library in fact while travelling in Japan in 1901.

Verisimilitude, I suspect :) The Takashima Ekidan we have is a summary of Takashima's 10-volume original. If Hatamen had quoted from those 10 volumes, he would impress me.

Tom
 

pocossin

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His bro did the casting and got a hex for which he came up with the correct answer. A third party should probably not temper with the process unless he's clearly invited to.

Takashima was remorseful for his error: "He [the querent] then came to me alone and forlorn, and complained [to]me of his adversity. I was horror-stricken. I was very sorry to have moved the sacred words of the "Eki " arbitrarily with my imperfect wisdom, and to have made this fellow receive an awful loss. I offered him some gold, as an atonement for my fault. I was then fully assured that the words in the "Eki" must not be heedlessly looked over, and I shall never forget this lesson."
 

nahalie m

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In the article he wrote for Hastings Encyclopedia, Revon says that he knew Takashima personally and studied with him.

Thanks for the info, Tom.


Verisimilitude, I suspect :) The Takashima Ekidan we have is a summary of Takashima's 10-volume original. If Hatamen had quoted from those 10 volumes, he would impress me.

Hatamen clearly states that the (first) copy he got from Ekidan is the version in English we know of.

I may later this month have more info reg. M. Revon. If anything of interest pops up, I'll post it here.
 

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