Taking the Oath-58-64

[anita]

Hello Fellow Seekers of the Truth,

Hurrah - I've finally passed my second greulling test on my spiritual path and now enjoy the same intimacies with the Temple Girls and Sensei as I used to.

They are very happy with the 'transformation' in me, and I am told that they tested me because they know I can accept hard times and learn from them.

My most recent and most dramatic transformation has been of a sexual nature. They often told me that this was my final obstacle to enlightenment and taking the Oath that would enable me to offer my late and beloved father moksha- freedom from rebirth.

I have realised - and in a most difficult way - that today, at last, I just want to be that Pure Little Girl I once was. There's no longer any need for romance and sexual pleasure. I thought I'd never get to this - but then, as I say, I've learned the hard way.

What's more, I find that I am romantically exhausted.

So I asked the Yi what are the chances like for my taking the Oath and I got

58 -lines 1,5,6 moving to 64.
And
64 - for spiritual progress.

I suppose 58 means that if I can overcome the carnal - then I can - 64. New times beckon in the world of the spirit.

Any tips?

Best for your Quest
Anita

 

[bruce]

The outcome is what's most alluring, and that's all sexual in one way or other. Whether your ambition is to find a compatible romantic partner, or to pursue spiritual accomplishment, the journey is never complete or finished.

 

[pakua]

Different ways to use sexual energy, but there is always temptation as to where it wants to go ie gross or subtle.

 

[jte]

Looking to the lines, 58.1 is great - seemingly where you want to be - a pleasure without any negativity to it. But what's with 58.5 and .6?!? Who is it that you're trusting in who might injure you? Who's leading you on or how have/will you become someone who leads others in a quest for pleasure?

I'd be a little worried with those responses. It sounds like a difficult "trial" of some kind is part of your religious practice - perhaps that's what is referred to in 58.5. Still those two lines would have me reflecting more on what this endeavor really entails and would result in.

My two cents,

- Jeff

 

[anita]

Thanks everyone for your suggestions.

Jeff, I think since the top line changes too, I have already had that experience you speak of - being injured, trusting the wrong person, and now I'm ready to move on to 64. Those with sexual desire cannot take the Oath - and today I feel I can leave that behind me - the desire, that is. On the path I follow, this is my biggest obstacle, after having overcome many others en route to my goal.

Bruce - you're right that the journey never really ends.

 

[jesed]

Just in case the commentarie could be useful

Since you asked the chances that happened, the answer is: there is a high chance to happen.

Altough you didn't asked if will be correct to do that neither the consecuencues of doing that, the lines advice about it:

a) The joy and pleasure (sexual pleasure included) is a natural part of every spiritual life, despicte sexual pleasure is walk against Tao. If taking the Oath imply that you think sexual pleasure is negative and despicte it, you are like line 5. It will be dangerous for your life.
b) If taking the Oath makes you feel "superior" from other people, you will suffer at the end, like line 6
c) But if sexual pleasure is enjoy in serenity, the consecuences will be ok. What this could means: not despicte sexual pleasure, but put it in its proper site, like line 1

I know this commentarie could be "shocking" to your personal believes. I'm not traying to say that you should leave your believes; only shows the interpretation of the answer in its own system of believes.

Best wishes

 

[void]

Well said Jesed ! I agree with you and think you are brave to come forward with it. I thought it also but thought Anita may think her beliefs are being attacked. But I think you are right and more diplomatic than I could ever hope to be.

I see a seductive danger for you Anita, in believing these people can measure your spiritual progress and then striving to please them, for the pleasure of their approval. So then what would be seducing you in line 6 might not be carnal desire but desire for their praise and acknowledgement, which is as dangerous a seduction as any - since it leads you away from yourself. Also if you believe taking the Oath to be some sort of badge of honour then are you not in danger of being seduced by pride ?

Also I just don't see how one can measure when one is free from sexual desire - how do you test yourself, lol.

I think I heard that there is a way whereby monks and ascetics can transform their sexual energy into spiritual energy by raising it through the chakras - but this certainly has nothing to do with mere repression of desire (does it) which would of course be unhealthy - I'm sure a wicked saucy little dream would infiltrate through the subconscious - or else images of Bruces stick men would disturb ones equilibrium !

I'm sure theres alot I 'don't get' having a very western perspective - but you know most here are not following your 'path' so I guess you will not mind if diverse opinions are voiced about what the Yi might be saying to you here.

 

[anita]

I had a good laugh - thank you, thank you. I know what it is like to be free of desire - I have known that for two and a half years. And that was not repression but came about naturally because of my practice. So I know it's gonna happen again and I'm glad, for the Buddha did say (he was one of our Masters - but this is not Buddhism) that as long as one is plagued by the carnal, one cannot gain enlightenment. He did not say that married couples are wrong to enjoy sex.

So you see, it all depends on your goal. My goal is to enable my dead father to attain freedom from rebirth. Not to become a nun or anything, but pledge to follow the Way all my life. If I were that bothered about the praise of my Sensei, I would have never broken the rules in the first place - such as taking several lovers or smoking, for instance. As a Conducter of the Sacred Rituals, I was not supposed to, and yet they tolerated much from me for more than seven years.

Once the third eye is opened as on my path (and so was The Buddha's, Lao Tzu's and Confucius - all Masters on the path), anything becomes possible.

But I appreciate your concerns for me. Thank you.

 

[hilary]

Hi, Anita!

Off-topic here, sorry, but I read a book a while back that made me think of you, and your style of writing in that short story we heard on Radio 4

, and I've been waiting for you to show up again to mention it to you. It's The Mistress of Spices by Chitra Banerjee Divakaruni. Remarkable, very unusual book - I think you'd enjoy it.

For the rest, there is something about sensei's authority and the demands of this organisation that worries me, too, even before seeing that reading, and I'm glad that people have followed Yi's lead and questioned it. Good readings, I think.

58.5 is a difficult one. It's worth noting that despite the grim sound of 'trusting in stripping away' (the same word as the name of 23), Yi says it's dangerous, which is not quite the same as saying that it's always disastrous or a dead end.

It fits the situation perfectly: to take this oath is to place trust in people who would strip away your self-determination. The whole idea of putting your moral choices unquestioningly in the hands of a master/guru - it's always going to stick in my very Western craw. Big East-West divide here, but maybe the zhi gua helps to bridge it.

This is 58's 54 - opening yourself like the Marrying Maiden, who loses control of her own destiny. Dangerous? Of course. Necessary? Sometimes. To see the hopes it holds out for anyone who can trust in the stripping away, read the fan yao, 54.5. Such trust may be the only way the Maiden can enter into the higher and more complete levels of experience offered by marriage.

(I've seen Hexagram 54 once before in association with accepting a 'master', though in a very different tradition.)

The decisive choice in taking the oath is to give away your own independence. That's the message of line 5. It means deliberately becoming like the Marrying Maiden, the Pure Little Girl who is not yet an adult woman, who is without power to determine her own life course.

It's dangerous; it's not something I'd do, myself; it may still be something you want and choose to do because of the new levels of experience you can reach by that kind of trust.

 

[bruce]

Two Zen monks, a master and his disciple come up to a river, There?s a beautiful woman who's trying to cross the river but she needs help. So the master picks her up and carries her across the river. According to the discipline he shouldn't be touching a woman and this is what the disciple was thinking. So on the other side of the river the master and disciple carried on their journey but after some time the disciple couldn't hold himself back anymore and he said to the master " How could you pick up that woman?" The master said " The important thing is to put her down when the river was crossed, which I did, you on the other hand are still carrying her."

 

[hester]

Hi Anita;

This may not be the time to take the oath. Line 6 makes me think that doing so may force your secret side into some kind of rebellion. Enjoy the pleasures you are having now with Sensei and the temple sisters, line 1, but taking the oath may actually divert you from your noble goal of liberation for your father.

Sometimes just making a vow makes it the more for the breaking. As this is such a serious matter, and your father's future depends on this, you should be gentle with yourself. I think it is possible that when you are REALLY ready for the oath, you will have already done so in your heart. So I think the Yi is cautionary about taking the oath right now; there are pleasures yet to come for you. Dont take a vow that will prohibit you from them at this time.

best wishes
hest.

 

[bruce]

That's beautiful, Hester.

 

[micheline]

agreeing with Bruce, Hester, those are lovely wise words.
Anita, I wish you all the best with your decision and choice.

It is interesting to me that you say the Buddha said that unless we are not plagued by the carnal, enlightenment is not possible....I was listening to a tape by eckhard tolle and I think he said something to the effect that the Buddha had changed his stance on that during his physical lifetime...that he felt it was right, even necessary, to embrace the physical aspects of our being in every way...I could be wrong, I could have misheard it...
It made sense to me that embracing the physical was important, perhaps until such time when one transcends the physical *organically* - meaning from a deep inner natural letting go- rather than by adhering to a precept.

Maybe that is where you find yourself now...? and 58.5.6 could be pointing to the fact that it is time now to turn away from the seductions that have been part of your past because their usefulness has disintegrated (or is in the process of disintegrating).

64 is what would concern me..."romantically exhausted" may not be the same as being romantically satiated - and ready to cross the river.

 

[anita]

Thank you everyone.Hilary - yes I've heard of the book - and will get my hands on it.

Firstly, the Oath is pretty far away. For that the Cheif Guru has to visit the Temple here as only she can ordain you.

Secondly, I did not ask about sexual pleasure, yet the Yi points to it. I only asked what are my chances for the Oath. It is most difficult to be perceived as ready to take it. I have been told from the beginning that I'm capable of taking it. The temple girls themselves have been refused the Oath over and over again, till Chief Guru swa them as fit for it. So, it's not as though they're pushing people into it. No one in India has taken it yet, except for the Indian Temple girl here. But In Japan there are hordes of devotees that have.

What 'freedom' do you give up? Many married couples take it and continue with their sexual lives - but are not obsessed with it, and many voluntarily transcend desire because of their practice. In my case the pursuit of pleasure had become an addiction - and one must be free of any addiction.

The Oath requires you to be vegetarian all your life, not drink or smoke or eat onion and garlic. Or spew filth from the mouth - it's also known as the cleaning of the mouth. These are good ways to be.

I believe the Yi is speaking of my very recent past -the inferior element is someone I met through the net and with whom I had a 6-month relationship. Nice man. Came for the Ceremony in the Temple, was generous and wanted to whisk me away overseas, but I knew all along that I hAd no love for him. I liked him, my son liked him, and thought so what if he's got that paunch - perhaps now is the time to free myself from attachment to appearances and look into the heart. I did not tell Sensei about this relationship - I always have before. The top line moving tells me that this experience has passed away. Why hasn't anyone noticed that?

Eventually I suffered a sexual injury because of my lust and realising that this was the karmic backlash of my actions, and that I had to let go of sexual desire in order to progress, and that I was no longer capable of romantic love, I broke up with him.

These are realisations that happen like so many have on my path because the third eye is open and one is directly connected to the True Self within. With practise, this sense of True Self becomes sharper and sharper, and it's been over 7 years now.

I feel very happy now that I am free - and I have not told Sensei about my decision, but I know they sense it by what they say to me.

I have total trust in them because following the Path - and their advice is according to the Path, never otherwise - has transformed my life for the better. I have experienced many miracles and many a time they have taught me in their loving-harsh way to find the answers myself instead of depending on them. Practice makes you independent, not dependent.

I have known them intimately for over 7 years and have never had any reason to doubt them and the Path. If I doubt them, I doubt the Path. I am very sure of this path. And the true measure of a ptah is how it improves your personality and your life.

Micheline, if the Buddha had changed his stance about the physicAl, why hadn't he simply returned to his wife? He did not return because he naturally transcended the desire for sex. He followed this same Path that I am following now and learned all he knew from it. I too have naturally overcome this desire because of my recent experiences. Men are no longer necessary for me as lovers. I know that I can only harmonise with a husband/lover if he too follows my path. I may not protest, for instance about his meat eating, but it would bother me. Besides, when the purpose of life is enlightenment, why should I allow desire to distract me from this noblest of goals? I owe it to my father.

Here is a link to a terrific article on celibacy - an interview with a monk - Bhante Henepola Gunaratana - What the Buddha Taught. - http://www.wie.org/j13/bhante.asp. The Buddha ha very dramatic things to say about sex as you can see.

I am ready to cross the River.

 

[hester]

The Buddha never changed his stance on anything. He did teach according to the capacity or condition of the person coming to him for help. He gave 84,000 methods for ending suffering. The Buddha's enlightenment was complete. He never changed his stance on anything.

Anita, ultimately your Guru will know if this is the time for you to take the oath. I did not know that 58/64 referred to your past romances, I thought it pertained to taking the oath. For what it is worth, I believe you when you say your Path, your Sensei, is legit.

Thank you Bruce an Micheline for kind words.

 

[bruce]

These are all personal beliefs, and as personal they belong to the one who accepts them as true. The world at large pushes sex as a path to a happy life. The reverent deny sex to the same end. Individuals have different natures, and so for one to say to the other ?your way is wrong? is to project his or her own personality into the other. I think that?s a far greater offense than engaging in sex.

As nutty as I think Paul of the Bible was, he did seem to experience moments of clear mindedness, threaded throughout his teaching. One example was his view of celibacy. In Paul?s view, not everyone is suited for celibacy. In fact, he regarded celibacy as a gift rather than as something to attain. I agree with this idea. He regarded Grace also as a gift. I agree with him there too. When someone is through needing something, they discard it, because it no longer offers them what it once did. Then, I believe, abstinence can be a healthy thing. If one is coerced into forcing themselves to be rid of something, it will never depart from them. It will find a way to manifest; and sexual frustration manifests in some unnatural and gross ways, when sex itself is made to be unnatural and gross.

There is one common notion that disturbs me: that man is separate from nature, that his mind elevates him or her to a status above nature. This automatically places enmity between God and man. Man fell from grace in the garden because his mind told him he was separate from the garden and all the [natural] life within it. Then he creates a theology to overcome the mistakes in his judgment: enlightenment, salvation from sin, so that he may return to the innocence he chose to leave.

It is my theology that everything finds its own natural way over time, if one remains true to their core nature. Some have the grace and the gift to leave sex behind. Some die with a smile on their face because they were sexually and romantically complete.

 

[void]

Hester, Anitas question was about the oath, if you scroll up to the top you'll see. She herself decided afterwards to make the Yi's response about past romances.

If we take the answer she got 58 - 64 then I find very puzzling indeed as how this can be read as "Yes go ahead and take the oath". Must be Anita did too so changed the question so it fitted in with what she wished to hear.


It puzzles me why if ones faith is solely in a guru that one would then question the decisions of the guru by consulting the Yi Jing. Unless of course one believes the Yi Jings counsel will always and I mean ALWAYS be in line with ones gurus opinion. If one uses the Yi JIng to question the decision of ones guru, one then must intrinsically be asking if one is right to trust that guru. Anita seems to have unshakeable faith in this sensai/temple, why then does she question the Yi Jing about it ?

 

[hilary]

Anita wasn't asking whether she should take the oath, but about the chances of whether she would be allowed to. Not a sign of lack of trust in the guru, nor yet of inconsistency on her part.

Anita - I didn't mean giving up the freedom to make love, or to eat garlic. The idea of being 'allowed' or 'not allowed' to take a spiritual oath that is between you and your God expresses very well what I feel you are giving up. Which is, at an absolutely fundamental level, none of my business

And I do take your point about the measure of a path being its effect on your self and your life.

 

[peace]

The way I read is that you started off feeling joy - 58.1, very innocent and simple and then perhaps there was some desire there - you pushed for something that may not have truly been in your heart and it takes you off your path.

64 says you're not quite there yet. There is still disorder.

Perhaps in saying "no" to the temptation, which you mistake for joy, you will eventually have order and the spiritual peace you are seeking.

Rosalie

 

[peace]

Anita:
One more thing.
I don't think it refers to sex either, but to this organization and oath - very scary from what you said.

What you denounce or deny yourself is no one's business. What do you feel inside yourself?

I don't know you or this organization, but I hear a kind of "pride" of perhaps moral superiority(?).
Perhaps I'm wrong.

I would sit with your beliefs for awhile and not give up anything or vow to anything.

If there are sexual issues you have to work through - you can do that without using an "oath", which gives you a false boundary and may close a door to something you need to explore for yourself.

Rosalie

 

[micheline]

Dear Hester, I really know nothing about the Buddha, so pardon my ignorance...i didnt even know he had left a wife, much less that he didnt go back to her..!
what tolle was referring to (I THINK) was the time when the buddha was beginning his journey (siddhartha) and how his "stance" evolved.
I am really curious tho, are you saying the Buddha was completely enlightened even from the moment of his physical birth? was he born into this world as an enlightened being or did he achieve enlightenment in this last human lifetime?
Please excuse if the questions sound ignorant..

thanks micheline

 

[hester]

I am saying that if one reads the teachings, there is no 'change in thought', no 'change of heart' in what he espoused. The same consistent teaching is offered throughout his life, tailored to the needs of the person who came to him. Tailored to the circumstances of the monk, tailored to the circumstances of the lay person, the married person, the merchant, the daughter, the son, the king, the queen, the bodhisattva, etc. A married person was not expected to be celebate. In fact, the Buddha did give a teaching as to how two married people who loved each other could share life in the next life as well. This teaching, of course, was given to a devoted married couple.

 

[micheline]

my mistake...Tolle's exact words were

"..even the buddha is said to have practiced body denial through fasting and extreme forms of asceticism for six years, but he did not attain enlightenment until after he had given up this practice.'

 

[anita]

Thanks Hilary. And Everyone else. My goal is enlightenment and in that respect, celibacy is important and essential. My goal is not romance or marriage. I am going to be 49 this Decemeber and I think I've had more than enough sex and romance and two marriages too.

Micheline - The Buddha was not born enlightened. He attained that after the opening of his Third Eye through the Kyudo Ceremony.

Tolle is certainly not implying that by giving up his practice of bodily denial, the Buddha resumed a sexual life! this should be understood in the right context. What is meant is the fasting and the penance. In the scriptures The Buddha himself mentions that the Kyudo is equal to a hundred years of meditation and penance.

Peace, thre is nothing scary about the Oath - why is it scary to be vegetarian all your life? I have been one ever since I discovered this path and it's made me happier and healthier.

And as I said earlier the Oath does not imply celibacy. We don't turn into nuns. In a marriage sex is fine if not overdone. But in my specific case, I have to transcend that desire in order to evolve spiritually. I was to take the Otah earlier - but the Chief Sensei said that I was not yet ready because I had desire.

At the time I did not want to face the truth - I wanted romance, and so I went ahead. It's been about three years since then and my experiences - NOT my Sensei's words have convinced me that I must leave it behind - in fact, I don't believe the urge will plague me any longer after what I've been through recently. So it's always been my experience that has led to my decisions. That is why I so often went off the Path.

The Yi brought up the sex precisely because of my earlier addiction to it. It makes a lot of sense - the Yi is simply warning me of that inferior pleasure and my need to overcome it. If I don't, I can't take the Oath. I wasn't asking about my Sensei or my Path. I would never do that because I KNOW the truth.

Meanwhile, I urge my fellow seekers to read that interview with Bhante.

Best for your Quest
Anita

 

[cal val]

"The Mistress of Spices" is a wonderful novel. Thank you for recommending it, Hilary. If it hadn't ended so well, I would have wanted it to never end.

I like the choice Tilo made.

The movie is out... it appears it premiered at the Toronto International Film Festival last month. After reading the synopsis in the review below, I recommend reading the book first. It appears they did make some changes in the screenplay that I believe take away from Chitra Divakaruni's important message.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr/reviews/review_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001097720

Love,

Val

 

[thisismybody]

Anita, did you ever take the Oath and decide what this reading meant?

Signed, Curious 11 Years Later