Tao Te Ching Resources

[angel]

Greetings to the Greatest.

...Brian you remember me something:

I have been working in a research project about the Tao Te Ching (TTC) from a year now. I would like to ask you all a favour. Last November Binz gave me a great link at www.edepot.com, but I would need more. Also, If you have a favourite English or Chinese translation or essay or whatever in paper about the TTC please let me know in order to buy it and study it.

I hope to have all the links in order in one month. I will try to put everything I got in a website.

Thank you so much.

BTW, Does anybody know why suddenly there are doves in my garden?. Is this an omen?


Angel

 

[lindsay]

Dear Angel,

I am sending you by private email a huge (164pp.) and very complete annotated bibliography of all published English-language translations and materials about the TTC that was compiled by a friend of mine who died two years ago before it could be published. He spent years gathering it together, and I know he would want a sincere student like yourself to have access to it. He was thoroughly grounded in classical Chinese, and I can attest to the quality of his work because I verified much of it from my own researches in the Library of Congress and the British Museum. So please don't be alarmed when you receive a very large email file. I hope it will help you in your project.

Lindsay

 

[angel]

My Goodness!

Lindsay, your friend?s bibliography is astonishing. I have never seen any TTC biblio so huge and detailed!. I cannot find words to thank you for this information. It´s a big step forward in my research. Not only your friend Larry Moore will be credited for his work, but also yourself for your generosity .

I friend of mine wrote me this dedication in his TTC translation ? Give and Give ´til you have goodbye?. You have given me this gift and now I give you these:
The best quote engine to speak and write wisely is at:
http://www.quotegallery.com/
The best interrelational search engine is here:
http://www.kartoo.com/index.php3?langue=en
I hope you enjoy them.

Ok friends, Larry though Lindsay, has provided me his superb biblio but now I really would like to have your feedback here, please. I don´t care if is only an opinion about the book, a TTC link, a mystic TTC book or just a line. Everything counts. Thanks.

I´m feeling good today and perhaps innocent too!!!

Angel

 

[lindsay]

For what it?s worth, my favorite English translation of the Daodejing (DDJ) is the old version by Gia-fu Feng and Jane English, which has held up very well over the last 20 or 30 years. This is the book I read when I want to absorb the DDJ?s spiritual message.

Many people feel the same way about Stephen Mitchell?s translation, but to my mind, his version is way too Zenish for my liking. Classical Taoism is not Zen. In fact, the two schools of thought are vastly different.

I could discuss 50 or so other translations that have merit, but the only other one I would recommend to the general reader is Gregory C. Richter?s ?Gate of All Marvellous Things: A Guide to Reading the Tao Te Ching.? This book is a must-have for any DDJ lover because it opens up the Chinese text in the same way Wu Jing-Nuan opens up the Yi. Richter?s book is an interlinear translation with the full Chinese text in characters and pinyin along with consistent English translations. With Richter, anyone can read the DDJ in its original language and see where all the translations come from. (Unfortuantely, Richter's book really isn't much of a "guide" for those looking for explanation and interpretation. For that one must look elsewhere.)

The DDJ is the most translated book in the world except for the Bible, and general interest in the work is oceanic compared to the handful of devotees interested in the Yi. DDJ translations have been best-sellers for years. In the last 20 years, largely because of analysis of the Mawangdui texts and other recently discovered manuscripts, the DDJ has spawned a growth industry in academia. Dozens of scholarly books rolled off the press in the 1990?s, and are still coming. It used to be a scornful academic joke that a worn-out sinologist usually signaled his retirement by announcing he was undertaking a new translation of the DDJ. This is what scholarly elephants did on their way to the graveyard. This is definitely no longer the case. Many young and not-so-young academics are currently building their careers on the DDJ, and thriving.

The DDJ is fine and good, but people should occasionally be reminded that the true genius of early Taoism was not Laozi, but Zhuangzi (Chuang tzu). The Zhuangzi is a masterpiece of Chinese literature, and a monument of world philosophy. It?s also fun to read. So instead of buying yet another translation of the threadbare DDJ, why not pick up the Zhuangzi instead?

Lindsay

 

[heylise]

Angel
I sent you a little program with (if I am right) 17 TTC translations. I found it on the internet as a free download, but I could never find back where.
Well - it seems Outlook is making trouble, it is still in the outbox. I will try again, it is not big, 380 kb.
If anybody else wants it too .. Just ask
LiSe

 

[lenardthefast]

Dear Lindsay,

Are you aware of any source that does a comparative dissertation on the two subjects of the last paragraph of your last post. Or, failing that, how about a link to information on Zhuangzi? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Namaste,
Leonard

 

[lenardthefast]

Dear LiSe,

I would be greatly interested in receiving the list if its not too much trouble. Thank you.

lochs123@yahoo.com

Namaste,
Leonard

 

[lindsay]

Dear Leonard,

Let me begin with a bunch of lame excuses. First, due to my advanced age, I am very ?last century? in my approach to most subjects I have studied. I am far more comfortable in a library than I am on the internet. I can speak about books and other printed material with confidence, but I am utterly ignorant about websites. I?m afraid you?re on your own regarding internet resources. Second, I am only a few days from moving across the US, and everything I own is in a box somewhere. I could do a much better job answering some of your questions if I could consult a book or two. But I can?t.

Comparing and contrasting the DDJ and the Zhuangzi has been going on for a very long time, both in China and in the West. Any decent book on classical Taoism or early Chinese philosophy will address this subject. The best general book on the subject has long been Holmes Welch?s ?Taoism ? The Parting of the Way,? but a lot of new work has been done, and I do not know any especially good book that summarizes recent developments.

The Zhuangzi is a book of stories, parables, and short essays in 33 chapters. Only the first 7 chapters ? the ?inner chapters? ? are thought to have been written by the sage Zhuang Zhou or Zhuangzi sometime around 286 B.C. The rest of the book consists of writings by disciples and members of other Taoist schools that were collected together sometime after Zhuang Zhou?s death.

Zhuangzi?s tone is playful and disrespectful. He likes to poke fun at Confucius, and his book makes staid Confucians extremely uncomfortable, but Zhuang Zhou was such a beautiful stylist in Chinese that his book could not be banned. Some people think he was one of the greatest masters of the Chinese language who ever lived. Unfortunately it is impossible to see this quality in English.

Most editions of Zhuangzi discuss his relationship to the DDJ. For a very long time, until very recently, it was believed the DDJ preceded Zhuangzi, and that he drew a lot of his ideas from the DDJ. The latest thinking, I believe, is that Zhuangzi is older than the DDJ. In fact, the DDJ has taken a bit of a nose-dive in scholarly esteem in recent years. Modern scholars have rejected authorship by a single person named Laozi for many years, but now it appears that most of the DDJ was written far later than supposed, possibly as devotional material by a group or school of practicing Taoists only a few centuries B.C. But let?s not get into that.

Since I can only talk about books, let me mention something about the various editions of the Zhuangzi that are currently available. The Zhuangzi has only been translated a fraction of the times the DDJ has, nevertheless there are probably about a dozen English versions currently available. The best version for general reading is that by the famous monk and writer Thomas Merton (?Way of Chuang Tzu?). Merton did not know Chinese, but somehow he understood Zhuangzi as few others have, and his renditions of 11 chapters are more faithful in spirit than any scholarly translation. Unlike the scholars, Merton was wise enough to understand viscerally what Zhuang Zhou was talking about.

The best scholarly version is A.C. Graham?s ?The Inner Chapters.? Graham is probably the most respected modern sinologist, and his edition of Zhuangzi is so stuffed with long footnotes and bibliographical references that it?s hard to find the text sometimes. Far more readable, but less erudite, is Burton Watson?s ?Chuang Tzu,? a plain but accurate translation of the whole book. For the more adventurous, there is Victor H. Mair?s ?Wandering on the Way,? a lively translation by a scholar who revels in being the bad-boy of contemporary sinology. Mair has a lot of brilliant ideas that no one else seems to share. There is a version of the inner chapters by David Hinton, plain and simple. Fung Yu-lan may be the greatest figure in Chinese philosophy of the 20th century, but I would avoid his version of Chuang Tzu ? it?s oddly dated.

Sorry, Leonard, what a mess I'm handing you! - but it?s the best I can do off the top of my head. Hope there?s something in it somewhere that?s helpful.

Lindsay

 

[lenardthefast]

Dear Lindsay,

Absolutely no apologies required, you have given me more than ample material to satisfy the few undamaged neurons still desperately seeking exit from my fevered brainpan! I manage to keep them hopeful of eventual escape by flicking on a blinking green 'EXIT' sign occasionally and then fiendishly turning it off. Everyone should have a hobby, don't you agree?

Namaste,
Leonard

 

[angel]

Lindsay,
We have this saying in Spain ? It can be said louder but not better?. You Truuuuuuuly love books, it can be felt in every line you wrote. It´s a summary of wisdom.

You said you could discuss 50 other DDJ translations and I can barely ?talk? about 3 Spanish, 8 English and 1 Chinese, but somehow the translations that you mentioned I have read them all. It seems to be a consensus in some translations. My votes goes to?
1. Best translation easy to memorize and quote is Gia-fu Feng and Jane English.
2. Best translation for vocabulary research is Brad Hatcher.
3. Best translation literal meaning Richter´s.
4. Best Comic translation Tsai Chih Chung for the sayings of Lao Zi.
5. Best original translation The Tao of Meow. The DDJ from a cat point of view.
6. Special Mentions: Wint-Tsit Chan and Duyvendak.

Perhaps Zhuangzi is the masterpiece of early Taoism but the little Laozi has something that touch every individual that read it and in this aspect is similar to the Yi ( no the Zhouyi). I only have 2 Zhuangzi English translations and the one I prefer is that of Burton Watson. I will try to find your wise book recommendations. You?re a living library!

LiSe thanks for the Tao program. It works fine.

Leonard and LiSe,

For Chuangzi I got the following links. ( No sorting so far; the last one is Burton Watson translation without notes):

http://members.aol.com/Heraklit1/chuang.htm
http://www.publicappeal.org/library/unicorn/chuang-tzu/index.htm
http://www.edepot.com/taotext.html
http://www.hku.hk/philodep/ch/zhuang.htm
http://acc6.its.brooklyn.cuny.edu/~phalsall/texts/chuangtz.html
http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/taoism/cz-list.htm
http://www.chinapage.com/philosophy/zhuangzi/zhuangzi-text.html
http://barney.gonzaga.edu/~chongls/CP/xiaoya.htm
http://www.cnd.org/Classics/Philosophers/Zhuang_Zi/
http://www.globaldialog.com/~thefko/tom/gi_chuang.html
http://main.chinesephilosophy.net/daojia.html#zhuangzi
http://www.publicappeal.org/library/unicorn/chuang-tzu/index.htm

For General Daoism:

http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/taoism/
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/7201/index.html
http://www.edepot.com/taoism.html
http://www.hku.hk/philodep/ch/Daoindex.html
http://helios.unive.it/~pregadio/taoism.html
http://www.geocities.com/tao4dummies/
http://chineseculture.about.com/cs/daoism/
http://www.daoiststudies.org/begin.php
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/7201/favorites.html
http://www.geocities.com/dao_house/index
http://helios.unive.it/~dsao//pregadio/index.html
http://main.chinesephilosophy.net/cplinks.html
http://members.aol.com/MrSage365/Taoist.html
http://www.sino.uni-heidelberg.de/igcs/igphil.htm#daoism


I think this is enough for today. In order to see Chinese text, don´t forget to set your browser to read Chinese Big5 (First select the whole text and then, in Internet Explorer is See- codification-Traditional Chinese Big5).
Enjoy it.
A.

 

[angel]

?.I cannot resist the temptation.
Lindsay, when you have you books in place. Would you be so kind to give us an Old Chinese history book recommendation list?. Thanks

 

[bfireman]

The Tao of Meow- Now that is one I have to read!!! I have been living with a cat the last half a year.. and I am so curious to see what her take on this would be...

Peace - Brian

 

[lindsay]

Dear Angel,

Thank you for your kind comments. I do indeed love books. More than people, I?m afraid. But I?m not sure books have made me happier or wiser. We all have to eat what life puts on our plate, whether we use a knife and fork or chopsticks. I have spent too much time learning to use chopsticks, and too little time just eating my food.

I also love the DDJ more than Zhuangzi. For me the DDJ has been an excellent vade mecum, but the little book is also terribly seductive: beautiful, comforting, noble . . . and dangerous. Here are three snares the DDJ lays for us:

(1) Politics. A great deal of the DDJ is political. Thinking about its political ideas carefully has led me to conclude its politics is both naïve and disastrous in the context of the modern world, in the context of any world actually. I can only urge readers to break the DDJ?s spell, and think about its political ideas in concrete terms.

(2) Quietism. The DDJ can foster a kind of passive attitude toward life that turns us into objects rather than agents. Some of this stems from a faulty understanding of doctrines like wu wei wu. In its extreme form, this attitude can lead to an abdication of responsibility for our own lives, a kind of high-minded cop-out. I think life calls upon us to be reasonably strenuous for our own survival and happiness, and that of our loved ones.

(3) Mysticism. What people forget is that mysticism is an extremely difficult and arduous path to spiritual understanding. It?s never warm and fuzzy and cuddly, and it isn?t easy. Of course, it?s easy to read about. I could, for example, read a lot about climbing Mt. Everest, and know so many features and details of the journey that a stranger might be fooled into thinking I had actually climbed the mountain myself. But in reality, compared to the real climbers, I know nothing. In fact I am deceiving myself and others about what I know, which is negative progress. This is why a Zen master groans when a new student makes much of all the reading he or she has done, how much they know about dharma. The big readers (like myself) are the last to be enlightened, because they think they already know everything when they know nothing. Anyway, the DDJ encourages people to get into it way over their heads, and this is not a good thing.

These are all dangers mainly for Westerners. When reading the DDJ a lot, I think it is also a good idea to read a little Confucius at the same time. Confucianism is the other side of the coin from Taoism. You need both to make a real coin. The Chinese always had both, whether they preferred one to the other or not. For us, coming out of a different culture, it is possible to know only part of the story.

I also think the Yi is a wonderful antidote to classical Taoism, because it forces us to ask questions about the world and our place in the world. After all, we do live here, don?t we?

OK, that?s it. I?m going to shut up for awhile. I?ve been talking much too much lately. Time to move. Thanks to all!

Best wishes,
Lindsay

 

[lenardthefast]

Dear Lindsay,

I understand from your posts that you are moving across the country. I was curious as to whether you moving east to west, west to east, north to south or south to north. Oh, and what country?

Only if you are comfortable with the questions, of course.

Either way, I wish you well in your move and that it satisfies all your expectations.

Namaste,
Leonard

 

[lindsay]

Dear Leonard,

Didn?t I mention I live in Monaco? I?ve taken rooms across town.

Actually, I'm moving from Massachusetts to Arizona. Candid had better be very nice to me in the future. I have a 4x4 pickup and a big dog.

Also, have you noticed that very few women have been posting lately? I think all this talk lately has led to the following result:

Anyway, I hope some of our regulars wake up pretty soon! I see that as your responsibility, Leonard (sweet-talker)!

Namaste,
Lindsay

 

[lenardthefast]

Dear Lindsay,

I think I might have lost my touch as of late. Haven't been getting much response from the ladies. Probably cause I'm

I envy you in your trip west, I am having hard time adjusting to PA and the white, slippery stuff.

Oh, you mentioned 'advanced age', does that mean older than my 60 times around the burner?

Am saying mantras for a new job back here though, even though it's based in Schenectady, NY. Its a really Premier company in the business and it actually has a real business plan. Will wonders ever cease? Hope not, 'cause I'm partial to wonders(also wanders).

If I may be so bold as to ask, where in AZ? I personally love Sedona. Kinda New Agey, but the scenery is breathtaking.

Also, it doesn't have the intense heat associated with the Valley of the Sun(Phoenix).

Well, wherever you go I wish Peace to you and your large canine friend.

I'm sure the ladies will be back when they see something that interests them, I probably scared 'em off with my whacko QM ideas.

Namaste,
Leonard

 

[heylise]

A very good DDJ: ?Tao Te Ching, the definitive edition?, by Jonathan Star, 2001. Translation; verbatim translation (with Chinese character, Wade-Giles, radical-number, list of English equivalents); notes on the verbatim translation (e.g. what is sheng-jen, wu-wei, pictographs, at verse 6 quotes about Shakti and Kundalini, etc); 24 pages commentary on verse 1; definitions + concordance + Wade-pinyin conversion; list of radicals; some early translations of verse 1; sources.

Not poetic but a great source of information.

Have a safe voyage Lindsay

LiSe

 

[heylise]

I looked at J. Star´s DDJ with new eyes, and the translation is beautiful. I had not seen it in a very long time, and in my memory the text itself had disappeared behind all the glosses.
LiSe

 

[angel]

?If you drink too much, you get drunk.
The engine won't start if you're always tinkering with it.

If you hoard wealth,
you fall into its clutches.
If you crave success,
you succumb to failure.

Do what you have to do, then walk away.
Anything else will drive you nuts?.

?is everybody awake now?.
Yes, this is a also a DDJ Chapter. If you want to read the rest of the book follow that direction:

http://www.beatrice.com/TAO.html


Ladies, you have a feminine DDJ here:
http://www.womensearlyart.net/immortals/taoteching.html

For the Tao of Meow:
http://www.geocities.com/wickedtwins/

There are also the communist tao, the anarchist tao and so on?


Lindsay,

Your quote: ?We all have to eat what life puts on our plate?.
It´s my imagination or this is determinism?. It sounds quite pessimist to me.

Your quote: ?I also think the Yi is a wonderful antidote to classical Taoism, because it forces us to ask questions about the world and our place in the world?.
Hmmmm, I am not sure about that, could you explain what you mean further?.

Bon voyage.

LiSe,

Thanks for the recommendation. Does it have the tones?.

Happy weekend everyone.
A.

 

[heylise]

No tones

LiSe

 

[heylise]

Top mail of this thread: doves. Maybe peace or purity or love coming your way? Must be a good omen.
LiSe

 

[angel]

It has just happened again!.
This is the third time on this week my computer hangs up when I´am finishing to write a post....
From the post I couldn´t send: " now there is only one dove, but is odd because she remains tranquil on the top of the fence, just looking at".

Thanks LiSe.
(Big thankful emoticon here)