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"Tell me about Greta" 39.4

Underwaterstar

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I have been pondering on the character and motives of Greta Thunberg, as I know many others have too--some with zeal and support, others with suspicion and derision.

I wanted to get some clarity on who she is and what's up... I asked I Ching, and received 39.4 changing to 31.

Hexagram 39:

"When halted, the southwest is beneficial, not the northeast. It is profitable to see a great person; innocence is auspicious."

The last part (re innocence) certainly seems to speak to her overall presentation, ethic, and energy (and of course her age). Seeing great people might refer to world "leaders" (although calling them great is questionable). There is a deeper meaning though.

My book, The Taoist I Ching, with commentary from the 17th century Taoist liu I ming, says

"The statement "when halted, the southwest is beneficial, not the northeast" is precisely the secret of dealing with danger and leaving danger. The "southwest" is the province of earth ☷, the homeland of utter emptiness and complete stillness. Utter emptiness beckons fulfilment; when stillness is complete, then action goes into motion. The primordial energy comes from within empty nothingness; as the mind of Tao appears, the human mind naturally recedes. This is the place that gives life to the self, so it is called beneficial.

The northeast is the direction of mountain ☶, where yin energy has nearly stripped yang completely away. Yin energy strupping away Yang, following on its desires the human mind takes charge of affairs and the mind of Tao is on the verge of disappearance. This is the place that kills the self, so it is called not beneficial.

It is beneficial to enliven the mind of Tao and withdraw the human mind; it is not beneficial to arouse the human mind and damage the mind of Tao. If you enliven the mind of Tao, then you can deal with danger; if you can withdraw the human mind, then you can get out of danger.

So the fact that it is surely profitable to see a great person, and innocence is auspicious, is because a great person is one who has not lost the mind of an infant. The mind of an infant does not cognize, has no greed or ambition--this is the mind of Tao. When one has the mind of Tao one is a great person; without the mind of Tao one is a petty person. Getting rid of human mentality is not possible without seeing the mind of Tao; only when seeing the mind of Tao can one get rid of the human mind. So "it is profitable to see a great person" simply means it is beneficial to see the mind of Tao.

Once one has seen the mind of Tao, false and true are distinguished; at peace, in accord, essence is stabilized and feelings forgotten. No longer seduced by the human mentality, by stillness one can control danger, and by action one can solve danger. Stillness and action are both functions of the mind of Tao. Meeting danger with rectitude, maintaining rectitude in the midst of danger, eventually one will surely get out of danger, resolve danger, and fulfill the great path, completing it auspiciously."

...

As for line 4, it seems a further iteration of the above text...

"Going leads to trouble; come form associations."

Also seems to warn against trying to stand alone, going forth on the spindly legs of ego... rather, come back into the fold, find the like-minded people and work together to make change.
 

Underwaterstar

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The following is my reply to a reply onthis thread which has now been deleted.

I think she is realizing the leaders don't care whether the youth of the world forgive them or not, at least according to her speeches. I don't see how that's her problem/a problem with her though. Naive, yes. Stupid, no. It betrays emotional intelligence and a healthy ethic of caring about others and wanting the same from them. Not easy to keep alive in this world.

I don't understand how, if I'm not clear what I think, I'll be projecting. If I'm open to receiving any info the I Ching wants to share about her, isn't that clear enough? I have received advice to the effect that asking open ended question like this is a good idea.

I also don't understand what her being 16 has to do with forming an opinion about what she does and says...

I'm aware that the commentary from the Taoist I ching is not the I ching.

I took the trouble of writing it out in part because I thought anybody searching this hexagram might benefit from reading this perspective, and because it's what I have to hand. No other interpretation, on this forum or elsewhere, including Wilhelm, Lise etc, is the I ching either.
 
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Underwaterstar

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Other people ask questions about world events, figures etc without the answer being put down to a projection of the querent's own ideations. I came to it quite honestly wanting insight because I don't know what to think. Part of me has been very skeptical about the whole thing. I'm not trying for anything in particular, just clarity. If you want a rundown of all my thoughts going into it, it would be a lot. Is the I Ching not capable of objectivity? I guess everything is relative and always changing. Maybe I'll ask a more specific question.
 

Trojina

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I'm sorry, I deleted the post because I knew you'd find it as you have found it. I don't think I can ressurrect it but the gist was asking you if you thought you'd know all about Greta by this answer and what it was about her you wanted to know and in what sense. I mean there is her just as a person and then there's her as a public figure and so asking who she is, well what does that mean.

I didn't mean to say you ought not to ask though my personal view is Yi is for us ourselves, for our development not to think we can get a summary of another person from. You ask if Yi is capable of objectivity, the question doesn't mean much to me because all answers will be interpreted subjectively. I do tend to feel when people ask things way outside their own sphere they get lost with Yi and I don't just mean you....but anyway sorry if you felt criticized.

I think it's worth thinking about Greta before looking at the reading. I saw her speech at the UN yesterday, was uneasy about it, didn't know much about her but now I do, having googled I'm even more cynical about her speech. I mean that whole thing about 'you have stolen my childhood' well no I think her parents did that by using her as a figurehead when the girl apparently has had anorexia and other mental health issues and is freaking other kids out to the point where they have anxiety. I thought the 'we will never forgive you' was just .....yet of course I support her POV but I do wonder what on earth she was doing there in that state.

39.4>41 ? Well she's struggling heading in the wrong direction and needs to stop that approach it just doesn't work like that.


And yes it's a question many are thinking about so I can see why you asked. I'm not even certain of my own view I just don't trust parents of a girl as emotionally distressed as that who use her as figure head for their beliefs and because she's a 'child' it's meant to be like she's the pure voice of innocence or something. At 16 one has no life experience at all and are pretty much formed by your environment. Also I don't agree with the whole panic thing she's pushing - it's not like it's even all down to world leaders at the current time is it, it's been growing for 100s of years and new technologies will take time to develop and McDonalds are still giving plastic toys away like WTF it's businesses like that that need stomping on
 
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Underwaterstar

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39.4 changes to 31. I can see your take on line 4; I think in this context it means, stop looking for solutions coming from governments/outside yourself and your sphere and work with others to make change on the ground, grassroots etc.

She was living with severe depression and stopped eating due to understanding and fully processing the implications of climate science, and she isn't the only one who has been devastated by the reality we're facing. You can't discuss this without acknowledging the central issue. I would love if it weren't true, but I've done my share of reading on the subject, and I'm witnessing the devastation in Abaco and the prevalence of droughts/floods/pingos/disrupted weather patterns/jetstream Changes and mass die-offs.

Action is the cure for despair, as she says (something like this).
 

Trojina

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I'm afraid think her parents are responsible for not taking good care of her mental health. It's good that kids are aware but they shouldn't be made ill over it plus it's not an exact science anyway. That speech would just scare the shit out of many kids without the resources to do anything about it anyway.

The fact she had severe depression and stopped eating is the responsibility of her parents. Why weren't they doing the speech not her, she's in no fit state to do anything.
 

Underwaterstar

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I agree that corporations need to change but they are even less likely to be swayed by begging. Judicial and legislative changes would force change in the consumer market/corporate sphere. But even that is far fetched in the current circumstances, with everyone divided against one another. Hence, "come form associations." Maybe "going" in this case is imagining there is someone to point the finger at outside of ourselves. That righteous indignation is unlikely to bring people on board. But rallying together for positive change can/could make a big difference.
 

Trojina

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She was living with severe depression and stopped eating due to understanding and fully processing the implications of climate science,

I mean no one, especially not a child, should stop eating and have severe depression because of climate change and climate does change any way. It does. I'm not negating other findings becasue I don't know enough but spreading panic and ill health amongst kids is not helpful. The impact of climate change and how it will change isn't 100% factually certain.

What on earth were her parents thinking of ? Did they think pushing their own agenda mattered more than the health and life of their daughter ?

She said things like 'people are dying, people are suffering', well people are dying and suffering and they always have done, it doesn't all rest on her shoulders.

There's the 39 her battling a massive mountain in a futile manner. Hopefully as she gets older she can pick her life up away from her parents. Crossed posts - I'm seeing the 39.4 as her own struggle with this issue and yes she'd be better to step away from that lonely struggle.
 

Underwaterstar

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The way Greta tells it, she actually informed her parents as to the scale of the problem and got them on board with the cause. 16 isn't all that young. She's capable of research and there is lots of information out there...

I hear you, the climate always changes... but this isn't gradual change, it's exponential catastrophe... The warnings from the scientists are dire, on a 25-50-100 year scale, but things are getting bad a lot faster than most estimates said they would... There is only a small chance that we could still turn things around, even if there were huge scale change and the immediate stopping of emissions now...

This is why she's advising panic. As long as we're in denial we won't do anything. It's like spiritual bypassing, where problems worsen and fester because they're not brought into the light... we need to acknowledge the urgency and act if there is hope of turning things around...

The panic being experienced by youth now on a psychological level is nothing to what it will be when it's due to hunger/extreme heat/flooding etc, and already is that way in many places where terrible storms and famines and droughts are underway. Yes, these things have happened before. But survival on this planet requires respect for the planet and it's limitations and that is what is being demanded/pleaded for.

I understand denial as a coping mechanism could be construed as healthy; but it also insulates us against the immediacy of the beauty and potency of the time that we have left.

But I hear you... the psychology of climate related distress is becoming an area of specialty in some universities... and maybe the focus on the DiSaster isn't the best way to motivate and encourage. I'm not sure; its interesting though... and something I personally, as you can tell, am exposed to a lot in my peer group and circles, so I've been through the grief cycle a few times myself.
 

Underwaterstar

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Could the 'obstruction' or halting of 39 refer to climate change denial itself... ? Or maybe you're right, and it refers to the environmental catastrophe and the whole entire mountain she's up against.

What does the southwest/northeast mean, in other interpretations?

I feel like 31 as a resulting hexagram is hopeful, like there will be/is a merging/marriage/meeting of minds and wills, if she is sensitive to the qualities and conditions of the time, and remains correct, some useful partnership emerges.
 

Trojina

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In my early 20s, which was the early 80s the threat of nuclear war really distressed me. There was so much reference to it, films about it etc I had panic attacks and anxiety which didn't help anything. On a personal level there would be all sorts of other things in my life that contributed to my mental state but I also felt the world was going to end at any moment. Others in their early 20s at the time may not have reacted like this, may have gone to Greenham Common to the women's peace camps, some even had a great time, a sense of unity, of doing something but I couldn't manage that. So my anxiety served no purpose. That's one good reason not to look at the news and other alarmist media.

Yet of course you are right we need to be alarmed, cannot afford complacency but it does get complicated, becomes a fine point of balance between people, especially young people, getting aware and active versus getting hopeless and depressed.

I do wonder why people who are so aware of climate change etc go on having kids because aren't they just sentencing their kids to have to deal with all these problems. That was actually a factor in my choice not to have kids. Not saying that's right or logical but for me it was a factor, why would I sentence anyone else to this. Also population is a massive factor in environmental issues but there seems little pressure on people to just stop over populating the world. They go on and on about cars but don't go on and on about people who think it's great to have more and more kids, I don't understand that, that's treated like something to celebrate.
 

Trojina

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Crossed posts again

Could the 'obstruction' or halting of 39 refer to climate change denial itself... ? Or maybe you're right, and it refers to the environmental catastrophe and the whole entire mountain she's up against.

What does the southwest/northeast mean, in other interpretations?

I feel like 31 as a resulting hexagram is hopeful, like there will be/is a merging/marriage/meeting of minds and wills, if she is sensitive to the qualities and conditions of the time, and remains correct, some useful partnership emerges.

As Greta and climate change are so intertwined I feel the answer must link to how she's going about it hence it must also refer to climate change. I see the answer simply as about what she's doing. She can't cope, she's been ill, very seriously ill yet she is putting herself at the forefront like this. But you could take the cast as directly to do with climate change.

The south west is the warm friendly area where you will find allies. The north east is a more alien hostile territory ands this is to do with the history behind Yi which I don't know much of.

The relating hexagram is not the future. It is the place one is coming from, the whole context, the question. The future may be part of the context sometimes but it pays to keep the relating hexagram very loose. Will link to Hilary's blog here


If you are wondering how 39.4 connects to 31 Hilary has given her own thoughts in wikiwing quoted here

39 zhi Hexagram 31, in Difficulties feeling Influence, being moved, open to guidance, maybe as a guiding thread that moves you back into a harmonious state of connection.

which does connect with what you said


I feel like 31 as a resulting hexagram is hopeful, like there will be/is a merging/marriage/meeting of minds and wills, if she is sensitive to the qualities and conditions of the time, and remains correct, some useful partnership emerges.

Yes going towards allies away from a hard lonely and prominent struggle would be good for her
 
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foxx777

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In my early 20s, which was the early 80s the threat of nuclear war really distressed me. There was so much reference to it, films about it etc I had panic attacks and anxiety which didn't help anything. On a personal level there would be all sorts of other things in my life that contributed to my mental state but I also felt the world was going to end at any moment. Others in their early 20s at the time may not have reacted like this, may have gone to Greenham Common to the women's peace camps, some even had a great time, a sense of unity, of doing something but I couldn't manage that. So my anxiety served no purpose. That's one good reason not to look at the news and other alarmist media.

Yet of course you are right we need to be alarmed, cannot afford complacency but it does get complicated, becomes a fine point of balance between people, especially young people, getting aware and active versus getting hopeless and depressed.

I do wonder why people who are so aware of climate change etc go on having kids because aren't they just sentencing their kids to have to deal with all these problems. That was actually a factor in my choice not to have kids. Not saying that's right or logical but for me it was a factor, why would I sentence anyone else to this. Also population is a massive factor in environmental issues but there seems little pressure on people to just stop over populating the world. They go on and on about cars but don't go on and on about people who think it's great to have more and more kids, I don't understand that, that's treated like something to celebrate.
I had very similar experiences to yours regarding the threat of nuclear war in the early ‘80s; I was also in my early 20s and now feel angry about all the media hype because it certainly had an adverse effect on me and presumably many others.

Regarding your other posts I would agree that Greta although earnest has many issues and is being at least partially exploited by adults.
 

Liselle

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it's real easy to shake one's fist and say something has to be done
Actually, the fact that Yi's comment on Greta was line position 4 and not line position 3 might be important. Shaking one's fist and yelling would be a line 3 thing, I think. Hilary even calls it a teenager-y line position.

But Yi said line 4, the line of actually getting things done. Whether that describes what she will do, or what she'll need to do - which are very different things - I don't know.
 

rosada

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Further thoughts..
I was just noticing how 39 invokes the hero Yu the Great, the LIMPING god. Interesting that Greta has her handicap too and particularly interesting I think is that she regards her Asperger's syndrome as a gift as it has helped her to focus on the climate change issue and make up her own mind about it (People with Asperger's tend to obsess about whatever attracts their attention and to be oblivious to social cues which can make them awkward in social situations but it also means they are not manipulated by social convention and will make up their own minds and not blindly follow the herd.) Perhaps this is a head's up to us for understanding hex.39. I had never considered Yu's being lame as a significant part of the hexagram but perhaps we should look for who is handicapped when we get 39, and how is that handicap serving them?

Stephen Karcher's thoughts on 39.4 - 31:
Limping. Difficulties going, connection in coming.
This is an appropriate and substantial position. Limping on, you feel lonely and think the world is against you. You are beating your head against a brick wall. Relax. There are people looking for you right now who can see how valuable you are.
Open yourself to this influence it couples you with a creative force.
 
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Liselle

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I'd had it in my head that Yu got the limp from his labor, or maybe that the work itself felt like limping (you know how someone can say they felt like they limped their way through something, when they just mean it was hard to make progress). Not sure now.
 

rosada

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Not sure either. But whether Yu was born with the hurt foot or became lame because of his work, it does strike me as a fascinating co-incidence that Greta also fits the Wounded Healer archetype. Interesting how hex 39 advises that the way to overcome the Obstacles is to re-imagine the situation and Greta has said she views the so-called handicap as a gift.

Other thoughts..
When Greta first burst on the scene she was a sensation because of her age but since then I notice many other unusually young people are in the spotlight promoting their causes. Maybe it's just my Facebook page feeding me what it thinks I'm interested in but I find it an interesting example of how energy emerges and manifests. First comes one lone teenager, then another and then the ten thousand.
 

hilary

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You'll notice there are fewer posts on this thread than there were. I've moved those that aren't directly about the reading over to a new thread in Open Space, while trying to preserve the integrity of conversations as best I can. (Readings belong here; the rest belongs there.)
 
F

Freedda

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A bit late to the game I know ....

For me, the imagery of Hex. 39 shows mountain passes being flooded, and the oracle is about how we can best make our way around these impasses ....

This very much reminds me that one of the effects of climate change are rising sea levels .... and here with 39.4 perhaps it's saying that one way Greta is addressing this 'impasse' is by seeking and forming alliances.

Or at least that's what comes to mind for me. (And I am sorry if this is a repeat of what someone else said already, as I have read some but not all of the responses.)

Best, D.
 

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