Clarity,
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The baoti trigrams of a hexagram pair consist of:
line 3-4-5 of the first hexagram and line 2-3-4 of the second hexagram
line 2-3-4 of the first hexagram and line 3-4-5 of the second hexagram
Hi Lienshan;
In page 14 of his book Nielsen says:"BAO TI:The contained or containing trigrams.The three outer lines(no.1,2 and 6 or nos.2,5 and 6)of a hexagram constitute a trigram which contains another trigram made up of the inner lines(nos.3,4,5 or nos.2,3,and4)..." This clearly defines them as been created from the outer lines of a hexagram thus containing another trigram.Had it been formed from the inner lines(2,3,4 and 5)as you wrongly suggest would obviously make them Hu Ti or, to us westerners nuclear hexagrams(interlocking hexagrams in Nielsen's translation).
Sergio
Yes, I agree. I noticed that too when I first read it. It is an editing oversight by the editor or Bent. There some others in the book. The concept is easy to grasp though and a good table can be constructed easily.
As I said in the other thread, I think it could be used in interpretation.
I also like Harmen's comments in this regard.
The captured trigram cannot express his qualities because of the oppressive/protective nature of the capturing trigram.
I appreciate his work, but there are few things I respectfully disagree with him, and as it happens to be, his interpretation of the baoti is one of this things.
Although, in my studies, I did not meet with a text that uses the interpretation of the baoti yet, nevertheless, I learned that trigram which "cannot express his qualities", is usually overturned or hidden, and this is not a case of baoti.
Luis Ti ...As for your speculations I agree with you-what do we call them?Of course not Hu Ti as that would be referring to the inner trigrams but that is your baby so you name it...
I would say that the keywords there were "his interpretation."
If you are referring to Western works, me neither. OTOH, it is a fairly obscure concept and a fairly new one at that (12th century). Not enough exegesis exist about it or its practical use.
Please, elaborate further about your understanding of "overturned or hidden" trigrams.
The baoti trigrams of a hexagram pair consist of:
line 3-4-5 of the first hexagram and line 2-3-4 of the second hexagram
line 2-3-4 of the first hexagram and line 3-4-5 of the second hexagram
the upper of the two baoti trigrams captures the baoti trigram below, if they are different!
X both baoti trigrams can capture each other
= the baoti trigrams can't capture each other
> the first upper baoti trigram can capture the second below baoti trigram
< the second upper baoti trigram can capture the first below baoti trigram
It's not my understanding, but understanding of Shang Binghe 尚秉和 (1870-1950). Namely, I am trying to translate his Jiao Shi Yi Lin Zhu 焦氏易林主, (see Harmen's Yi Lin translation project forum) and there, among the other things, he uses overturned (fangua 反卦 or fugua 覆卦) and hidden trigrams (fugua 伏卦) to explain the wording of the poems from Yi Lin 易林. No doubt the same concepts could be used for explanation of the wording of the Yi Jing proper, but as I said above, at the moment I have no much time to try to do that on my own.
As for examples of overturned and hidden trigrams used as trigrams which "cannot express his qualities", below are translations of the two poems from Yi Lin, together with commentaries by Master Shang 尚氏 which demonstrate how he uses them.
Ah, yes, the Jiao Shi Yi Lin, the 800 pound gorilla in the room.
Thanks for sharing Master Shang's ideas on the overturned and hidden trigrams (was him part of the Nanking Group together with Gao Heng?).
It occurs to me though that the use of those are more for the interpretation of the JSYL verses, from a philological POV, than for the received text of the Yijing, no?
In any case, they bring a very interesting way to picture and disecting the hexagrams.
Sigh, I wish I had the time to sink my teeth into the JSYL translation...
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).