The element of time in the I Ching

[svenrus]

i'm sort of bewildered. Firstly Please let me reflect on the post of Pocossin's.

And then I'll turn back to the Question of Yours, OK ?

It's late here in my timezone (Denmark) so have' bit'ff patience...


When I'm clear I'll be back

Good Night for now

 

[pocossin]

i'm sort of bewildered. Firstly Please let me reflect on the post of Pocossin's.

And then I'll turn back to the Question of Yours, OK ?

It's late here in my timezone (Denmark) so have' bit'ff patience...


When I'm clear I'll be back

Good Night for now

A sober night to you, Svenrus. It is the weekend here, and I cannot claim the same for myself

 

[stevef]

Not much interest is taken in alternative methods in Tasmania- “science” underpins most agricultural research. Tasmanians, generally, aren't much interested in things other than the secular. Although it is changing (we want to promote a clean, green Tasmania) farmers were more likely to use pesticide. For a small minority, there is “Bio-Dynamics Tasmania” which plant in accordance with a calendar. According to them “We endeavour to foster a greater awakening to the dynamics of the universe, and promote living effectively and harmoniously within the whole web of life”. The Bio-dynamic Association in the USA would be much larger, but they too seek to harmonize with the “subtle influences of the wider cosmos” See www.biodynamics.com.
I don’t think of the cosmos as human but a human as part of the cosmos, and the cosmos living in the human; spiritual forces influencing one as much as physical and material. Let’s say yin and yang are spiritual- and these constitute our being. Yin and yang are not reducible to quantifiable things; they are not observable, as such, but their manifestations and connotations are. Their essence must be intuited spiritually. However, would you go so far as to say that intuition is an inner visual and audible activity? I don’t think of myself as isolated or abstracted from the workings of yin and yang in a general way. My point is that their working in me is not merely personal- adjusting to fit my questions and wish fulfilments but that they provide a general cyclical re-occurrence, of which I am a part, and in which I can fit conscious states which otherwise I would have thought merely random, meaningless or an arbitrary act of some malicious unknown. The human endeavour is to make as much order as we can out of the chaos.
Yet I feel that you may object that I am enforcing my own interpretive order on what could be quite different. But I have mentioned the points of departure one can adopt in making rational sense of Blofeld’s order. For example, here is another template, which is based on the observation of phenomena. In the increasing yang through spring we have a sense of unity- nature mating, particularly. Hexagrams 45, 8 and 7 fit particularly well here. In studying the decrease of Yang, on the other hand, we have more of a sense of individuation (a contracting into oneself) I love Basho’s “The Narrow Road to the Deep North” where, at the end of the book, in autumn, he takes leave of his friends. The sense of loneliness and impending solitariness echoes the coldness of the time. Hexagrams 47, 36 and 61 fit in here.
I guess the only way I can know it is to live it as if it’s true. Call it a “way” if you like.

 

[svenrus]

Referring to page 2 of your table ( HERE) are you able to explain the section in the green box, X1-X5 with corresponding days? And what is the source? Thanks.

Imagine You got hex 57.5 On page one You can locate this by finding the Lower trigam, go in and find which row it's located. Go to the rowletter. Follow the red arrows:



Go to the hexagram (where You just located it) on page 2:





You will find that hex 57 is located in the seventh (chinese) month. That's ours August (chinese month + one). The cipher "2" You locate in the green box being the seventh to the twelfh day after New Moon in august. (1)

Find august 2015 here: http://www.moonconnection.com/moon_phases_calendar.phtml

You will find New Moon to be: 14' of august 2015.

Now, the fifth line were the changing line. First count seven days from New Moon and You'll get the 21' of august 2015. Add five (fifth' line changing) And the answer will be: "On the 25' of august 2015 (counting the 21' as the first)..... and so on".

The source is John Blofeld's book...

-------------------

On page 2: the four hexagrams "Out of the system" is situated as:
Hex. 52 First month (february) (6)
Hex. 30 Fourth month (may) (6)
Hex. 58 Seventh month (august) (6)
Hex. 29 Tenht month (november) (6)
All the other hexagrams is situated in row (1) to (5) - each hexagram counting six days and thereby being able to be located within the chinese month (30 days each). I can only guess, as I don't understand how to put those four hexagrams into the month, that:
they represents the whole month (hex. 52: february and so on) Or
they represents five day per changing line ie. First line changing in hex. 52 to example: Day 1 to 5. Second line changing: Day 6 to 10. Third line changing: Day 11 to 15 in February - and son on...

But, only guessing. Haven't found J. Blofeld explaining it.

--------------------------------------------

(1) Chinese New Year starts on the second NewMoon after Wintersolstice. It usually takes place in February. Normally it's said that the Chinese First Month accords Our February, but actually their First Month is situated at New Moon in Our February. So the accurate rule is: Chinese (Moon) month equals Chinese Moon-month + one month: and the New Moon in this month is Our month. The Chinese 8' month equals New Moon in Our September.

Usefull link: http://www.math.nus.edu.sg/aslaksen/projects/vc.pdf

 

[svenrus]

I have made some corrections on my post #34.

It's about the chinese/western interrelations in datings.

I'll be pleased to know if I've made some failure.

Also in my pdf-document in this post I've corrected mistokens.

 

[svenrus]

Hi Falcott

Thanks for kindly sending me a link for the diagram. However, I don't think it's the one I'm after. If you see my last remarks it is the seasonal concurrences that I am after.

With regards

Steve

If You mean in a western sense I'm searching for it too. I have questioned it on page 5 in this pdf-document in this thread #34.

If it's concerning the traditional view on the seasonal hexagrampatterns, sorry for interferring....

 

[pocossin]

Blofeld has assigned the hexagram calendar to Shao Yong's circle and square arrangement by a code. For hexagram 57, the code is G2. G is the seventh month and "2" is the second hexagram of the month. Why not use the hexagram calendar directly?

Month Hexagrams
1 11 5 17 35 40 51
2 34 16 6 18 49
3 43 56 7 8 9
4 1 14 37 48 31 30
5 44 50 55 59 10
6 33 32 60 13 41
7 12 57 45 26 22 58
8 20 54 25 36 47
9 23 52 63 21 28
10 2 64 39 27 61 29
11 24 3 15 38 46
12 19 62 4 42 53

There is hexagram 57 in the second place of month 7. No Shao Yong, no code, no confusion

 

[stevef]

Hi Falcott

Interference- not at all. After all, it was you who started the thread. Pocossin has listed the table in the order (more or less) I have been using for some time now. I expect that my approach has been to ask, “Well, if there is such a map, and this is the order- does it make sense, and can I read some rational logic into it?” As I have mentioned, on the basis of seasonal concurrence, and the increase and decrease of yang through the yearly cycle, some sensible claim can be made as to the appropriateness of the order; it isn’t merely random. And from this, and this, I guess, is where others may well disagree, that the feeling and power of the hexagram is more apparent in a general way than others at this time; although infinite, and individual, variation is evident too. I do enjoy comparing the table with R. Steiner’s Calendar of the Soul which also follows a similar desire to “enable the soul to participate actively in the progressing life of the year as it unfolds from week to week. Each verse should resound in the soul as it unites with the life of the year. R. Steiner”. My work has confirmed to me well enough the appropriateness of the order. (Sometime, Ill post some poetry which hopes to illustrate this flow from one hexagram to another). A map would be nice to look at but, really, I’m not too bothered about it.
With regards
Steve

 

[svenrus]

Blofeld has assigned the hexagram calendar to Shao Yong's circle and square arrangement by a code. For hexagram 57, the code is G2. G is the seventh month and "2" is the second hexagram of the month. Why not use the hexagram calendar directly?

Month Hexagrams
1 11 5 17 35 40 51 ........... is 52 in the Blofeld edition I have...
2 34 16 6 18 49 .................... is 45 - " -
3 43 56 7 8 9
4 1 14 37 48 31 30
5 44 50 55 59 10
6 33 32 60 13 41
7 12 57 45 26 22 58.................... is 49 - " -
8 20 54 25 36 47
9 23 52 63 21 28................ is 51 - " -
10 2 64 39 27 61 29
11 24 3 15 38 46
12 19 62 4 42 53

(The book of Change, John Blofeld, George Allen & Unwin LTD, London 1968)

 

[pocossin]

Blofeld made mistakes, and, in his effort to correct his mistakes, he made more mistakes. Of course, to be human is to err, and I certainly make my share. Using the tai xuan jing of 2000 years ago, I corrected Blofeld's version of the hexagram calendar, and it is correct as I have given it. I added the numbers of the months for ease of use.

His 52, 51 swap is wrong.
His 49, 45 swap is wrong.

We have different versions of Blofeld's I Ching. In my version he also swapped 30 and 20, a glaring error that apparently he corrected in your version. My version does not contain the mystifying square and circle look-up table that you have so kindly posted. Possibly he made changes to the text of his I Ching.

 

[svenrus]

My version does not contain the mystifying square and circle look-up table that you have so kindly posted. Possibly he made changes to the text of his I Ching.

I have made Blofelds hexagramorderings fit with the square and circle which is to be found too in Legges book.
Thank You for this important information about the tai xuan jing and correction of Blofelds hex.orderings !
I did only had Alfred Huangs and Blofelds books to stick unto concerning this.

 

[pocossin]

I also had two versions of Meng Xi's calendar and other sources, but that was 14 years ago, and I do not now remember everything I did. When I got a good version of the hexagram calendar, I stopped. Peter insists that the hexagram calendar was invented by Meng Xi. I don't believe it.

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?1562-Hexagram-8-Changing-Lines-and-the-Months

 

[svenrus]

I have googled tai xuan jing as well as Meng Xi but didn't really understood it. At the glance it looked like an alternative method as also I see the Plum Blossom method to be.

But maybe I should go to the library and lend a book about it; the www sometimes can be more frustrating than informative....

 

[pocossin]

The tai xuan jing is a "jing", a classic by imperial decree. It is a poetic almanac that runs from winter solstice to winter solstice. Its relevance to this thread is that the hexagram calendar is used in it. It can be but is not much used for divination.

 

[falcott]

I've enjoyed the discussion and learned from it, thanks all. Thanks especially to Svenrus for humouring me. Apologies for not being around for awhile - I was fasting and meditating for a few days.

 

[hmesker]

I mean: no sourcematerial.

See Fung Yu-lan, A History of Chinese Philosophy​, Vol. 2, p. 106-114

 

[Sparhawk]

Hey! I don't visit too often lately but I am surprised that, 46 messages later, no one suggested this link, right here on Clarity, in a pinned post in "I Ching News", right on top!! I spent quite a while translating those pages!!

Mind you, I don't know if it would help you but some swear by it...

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/frie...-quot-Times-quot-The-work-of-Ricardo-Andre%E9

 

[falcott]

Awesome, thanks Sparhawk. I look forward to reading through that. Thank you for your labours and for sharing the fruits of it.

 

[svenrus]

Harmen Mesker has an article tuching the subject:

http://www.yjcn.nl/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/The-month-hexagrams-of-Hu-Yigui.pdf

( http://www.yjcn.nl/wp/ )

 

[globalex]

Dear falcott,

This thread created by you is interesting and important, I reckon. After reading it, I tried using the timetable but I don’t seem to get it right.

Here are my questions:

(1) First of all, one has to cast to get a hexagram before one can find its place in the timetable. The changing line will determine the day. What if the casting produces a hexagram with more than 1 moving line?

(2) Does one have to cast (using yarrow sticks, die, etc) to get a hexagram in order to use the timetable? What about using the Plum Blossom technique?

(3) According to the reply by pocossin, (a) the first day of the hexagram calendar is the first day of the Chinese year, which varies, and (b) each line in the hexagram corresponds to a day in the calendar. In the Year of the Goat which is 2015, the first day of the Chinese Lunar Calendar is the 19th of February. This means that if you happened to get Hexagram 11, the first line of the hexagram represents the 19th of February, and the sixth line represents the 24th of February. But the first month (February) of the Chinese Lunar Calendar for 2015 has only 29 days. So, what day will the changing line determine if you get Hexagram 40 with moving line 6?

(4) What happened if your casting produces Hexagram 51, 30, 58 or 29 with more than 1 moving line?

Month Hexagrams
1 11 5 17 35 40 51
2 34 16 6 18 49
3 43 56 7 8 9
4 1 14 37 48 31 30
5 44 50 55 59 10
6 33 32 60 13 41
7 12 57 45 26 22 58
8 20 54 25 36 47
9 23 52 63 21 28
10 2 64 39 27 61 29
11 24 3 15 38 46
12 19 62 4 42 53
Assuming there is no swap between#30 and #20, #29 and #45.

Regards
globalex

 

[svenrus]

Hi, globalex,

In this post I've asked the I when I can expect to be able to start again on my job after having been unable to walk properly since just before Xmass last year.

As You can see I followed the "Nanjing-rule" and I found that the date should be the second of May this year (I guess).

The above linked thread I'll follow up as to see if this method works well.

Allready now I can feel progress in the cure and I can see that my use of medicals has fallen remarkable just the last few weeks; the cure seems with other words to accellerate....

 

[svenrus]

On #37 in this thread a scheme is given.
I have wondered if hex. 5, first month, should be shifted with hex. 52, ninth month.



I have marked the double-trigrams with yellow and hex. 52 seems out of the system.

 

[pocossin]

I see the pattern the exchange would make but have not found it in an ancient hexagram calendar.

 

[svenrus]

In the sequences of king Wan (Wen ?) it is clear that there is a system, each hexagram followed by the same hexagram inversed or opposit and in the Earlier heaven or Fu Hsi trigram order it's clear that there will be found a symmetrical logic. But maybe one should not search for symmetrical logic.... The logic maybe beyond this kind of system...
To example I found it strange that the tags for hex. 11 and 12 were respectively Peace and Obstruction *
as in hex. 11 the Heaven-trigram is under the Earth-trigram and opposit in hex. 12. I would expect that as in nature, when Heaven is above Earth it's in it's right place and thereby Peace.... But in this case it's meant that 'Heaven within' and 'Earth without' is Peace - as I understand the logic here.

* Kerson & Rosemary Huang's tags

 

[pocossin]

To example I found it strange that the tags for hex. 11 and 12 were respectively Peace and Obstruction as in hex. 11 the Heaven-trigram is under the Earth-trigram and opposit in hex. 12. I would expect that as in nature, when Heaven is above Earth it's in it's right place and thereby Peace.... But in this case it's meant that Heaven within and 'Earth without is Peace - as I understand the logic here.

Energy in a hexagram rises upward from the bottom. Heaven is the source of Energy. Therefore, Heaven is below and Earth above in the optimal arrangement. Hexagram 11 corresponds to the beginning of spring, hexagram 12 to the beginning of autumn.

 

[svenrus]

Larger image


PDF

 

[falcott]

Hi all, this is an anecdotal account of using the I Ching to determine a point in future time.

My wife and I have decided to sell our house and move to a different town, so we booked a consultation with an astrologer to determine the most auspicious time to put the property on the market.

The evening before our meeting with the astrologer I consulted the I Ching, with reference to the table in John Blofeld's book, for the earliest and best dates to list the property for sale. I cast hexagram 8, which would be the 19th - 24th day of the 3rd month. Since the New Year began 19 Feb, this means that the 19th day of the 3rd month is 7 May.

The next day we had our meeting with the astrologer who told us that the earliest time that he would consider is the afternoon of 6 May. That puts the I Ching time at about 9 hours behind the astrological time. But that's not bad! Considering that astrology is worked out to the minute, and Blofeld's table is to the day, that is very close.

Feel free to correct my calculations -- I actually did the interpretation quickly during the meeting with the astrologer!

As it turns out, we decided not to go with this date and will use a later date instead, but the experiment was very interesting to say the least.

 

[svenrus]

-----------Feel free to correct my calculations -- I actually did the interpretation quickly during the meeting with the astrologer!

Hex 8.1 I suppose ? If UC it would be the 7 to 12' of may.....

 

[falcott]

Thanks Svenrus, yes that is the date range that I worked out.

 

[svenrus]

On #40 this thread Pocossin remarks on Blofeld.