Clarity,
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Just Update to example with F5, then it comes.The Chih Yu one is a fun read. When I click on the first one, I get a split second glimpse of women wearing head dresses, then the screen goes dark.
Well, it was definitely used there, at least in North Vietnam. They have a love-hate relationship with China in general, the Chinese classics were on the syllabus, they just didn't want to become a Chinese province.There is one series of blog posts from a woman called 'TaoBabe' where she claims the Yi came from Vietnam, but her evidence, logic, and revisionist history are severely lacking.
Which remind me of this:Well, it was definitely used there, at least in North Vietnam. They have a love-hate relationship with China in general, the Chinese classics were on the syllabus, they just didn't want to become a Chinese province.
I did once stumble across some oracle-ritual in the far north of Laos in a small village. Rather brutal, it involved a cow being tied up and speared multiple times until it collapsed. I didn't have anyone who could translate to tell me what was happening, but it seemed to involve examining the cow's organs for signs. I'm not even sure it was Hmong, although definitely one of the hill tribe minorities of the area. Hmong is quite likely, they weren't Akha, they wear all black clothes, wit the women carrying the family's wealth in their hair as silver coins.
According to T.S. Vang, A History of the Hmong, they came from West long time ago (he mentiones well before 3000 BC.) and were for a long time living with the Zhou people but were either driven away or redraw themselves as they didn't want to be living under the Zhou kings domain. I would have wanted here to cut&past the chapter from the book but as my book is physical and hard to scan I can't use that possibility. Anyway: that they lived together with the Zhou people is interesting in itself I think, compared to more passages from their traditionals with to example wearing horns at some festivals and as mentioned the similarity between their mythical king and Fu Hsi. I think there could be more to find concerning a connection - not directly with the I Ching divination but some tales that could also be found in passages in the I Ching, to example "the Nine hills" mentioned in one hexagram text and that there were Nine tribes at a certain point in their long history... well, this a bit far out I know, but more similarities maybe could be found.I Googled both "Hmong" "Divination", and "Vietnam" "I Ching" and found some things that might be of interest.
There is one series of blog posts from a woman called 'TaoBabe' where she claims the Yi came from Vietnam, but her evidence, logic, and revisionist history are severely lacking.
I also found some articles about shaman and trance practices among the Hmong people, including a number of accounts from Hmong communities in Minnesota (state in US). One thing of note: sometimes people who enter trance states are called oracles (notably from Tibet, Mongolia, Siberia), but this is not the same thing as the Yijing 'Oracle'.
Well, here's a shot of an Akha woman from Laos for you. Not my own photo, I swiped it from Wikipedia. The Akha are a little bit west of the Hmong heartlands, but you still see them around in the same areas. Go now, before they finish the huge highway through the region, part of the Belt-and-Road Initiative.Which remind me of this:
"A girl of the Wishran tribe, in 1910" USA (not silver coins but chinese coins !)
from: LINK
A lot of the hill tribes in that whole region did come down from China at one stage or another, sometimes a very long time ago. People have found all sorts of interesting little cultural fossils, the tribes still using costumes and rituals that haven't been used anywhere in China for centuries.
There's a book called "A biography of the I Ching" which talks about the way the use of the I Ching spread throughout the region, Japan, Tibet, Korea, Vietnam, and how it was used differently in those places. I've never read it, just seen some reviews. Might be interesting for you.
I've got no idea about your theory about the connection between the Zhou and the Hmong. It just seems that it would be very hard to prove based on historical records. You might get somewhere with a linguistic or cultural analysis or something. Or DNA testing?
Well, here's a shot of an Akha woman from Laos for you. Not my own photo, I swiped it from Wikipedia. The Akha are a little bit west of the Hmong heartlands, but you still see them around in the same areas. Go now, before they finish the huge highway through the region, part of the Belt-and-Road Initiative.
"A girl of the Wishran tribe, in 1910" USA (not silver coins but chinese coins !)
.... In the Ching, for example "the Nine hills" mentioned in one hexagram text and ... there were Nine tribes at a certain point in (the Hmong's) long history... well, this a bit far out I know, but more similarities maybe could be found.
Hi, D. I have been searching for any connections between the Miao-tribe and the I Ching for many years and I can only agree with You that the examples I gave are far out. But even the slightest connections sometimes can lead to more significant connections. Nine hills compared to the nine tribes ? Yes ! Far out and I have only taken it into consideration secondary.I am curious what people think of these similarities / coincidences, etc. - of an American Indian women wearing Chinese coins (weaving them into her hair); or what is the significance with (or between) nine hills and the nine tribes? Do people see - either in terms of the Yi, or in terms of Hmong divination? Or ... are these just interesting things to see and note, even though they may or may not have much significance or connections between one another?
As to Edward Curtis' 1910 photo, "A girl of the Wishran tribe", I'm reminded that Chinese immigrated to the US in the 1800's and 1900's mainly as laborers, and they settled across the American west, and later the rest of the nation. That Chinese coins would become a trade item and and ornament for some American Indian tribes is not surprising, but I don't know of any particular spiritual or divinatory meaning here. But perhaps ...?
As to Nine Hills and Nine Tribes, again, does anyone have a sense of what this might mean, or signify? I've been reading examples of Yi divination practice found in the Zuo Commentary. In one example I found,
"Biwan’s descendants would surely become great, because the character wan (in Biwan’s name) meant ‘ten thousand’, a huge number, while wei (name of his governorship) meant ‘great’."
What is interesting here is that even though this was part of a Yijing casting (about Biwan's descendants), the diviner based his reading (or part of it) on the meanings of Biwan's name and the name of his region he governed - and his words here have no obvious connection to the Yijing's response. It reminds me of the possible connection - or lack of - between the hills and tribes: meaningful or not?
On the other hand, in the 100,000-plus-year history of human existence it seems quite likely that a particular number - 2, 4, 8, 9, etc. - would present itself any number of times across the world, with either varied or similar meanings ...
... so we have the Nine Muses ancient Greece; the nine planets of Astrology (yes, I'm including Pluto, despite what the scientist now say!); nine forms of the Chinese dragon; the nine Ennead, Egyptian deities; the underworld of the Aztecs which consists of nine levels; Dante's nine circles of hell, and so on ....
So to have nine hills and nine tribes ....?
Best, D.
Yeah, that's the one. I don't know that it will have much for your specific quest, but you might get some interesting ideas out of it.IrfanK, just one question: do You mean the book Richard J. Smith wrote (LINK) ? Because if so I can lend it on the library and it'll help me a lot.
Thank You, I'll order it from the library.Yeah, that's the one. I don't know that it will have much for your specific quest, but you might get some interesting ideas out of it.
I’m curious what you mean by this?... the connection between Chih Yu and Fu Hsi (Fu Xi)? Hexagram 30.
離 (Li, hex. 30)What is the connection between Chih Yu and Fu Hsi?
Hexagram 30.
I think, like I just answered Rosada.I’m curious what you mean by this?
I did a quick (and admittedly not in-depth) internet search, and one source said Chih Yu is an ancestor / deity for both the Han Chinese and the Hmong.
It seems then that at least in Chinese mythology Chih Yu and Fu Xi are two different beings (who both had horns or wore horned helmets?), and these are not different names for the same ancestor.
Best, d.
I remembered this name when reading your post, now I see why: LINK, I did link to her some years ago here. And I agree with You in that tranceoracles are not the same as I Ching oracle.I Googled both "Hmong" "Divination", and "Vietnam" "I Ching" and found some things that might be of interest.
There is one series of blog posts from a woman called 'TaoBabe' where she claims the Yi came from Vietnam, but her evidence, logic, and revisionist history are severely lacking.
I also found some articles about shaman and trance practices among the Hmong people, including a number of accounts from Hmong communities in Minnesota (state in US). One thing of note: sometimes people who enter trance states are called oracles (notably from Tibet, Mongolia, Siberia), but this is not the same thing as the Yijing 'Oracle'.
Surnevs, yes I have a sense that these are just bits of information, 'loose parts' that you're gathering here - and that's fine.離 (Li, hex. 30) ... to leave / to part from / to be away from / (in giving distances) from / without (sth) / independent of / one of the Eight Trigrams .... The connection isn't obvious. But all the examples ... are only loose parts I collect to get an idea of whether it's relevant or not. Until now there are only loose ends with no directly relevance.
Okay thanks! What you did was so obvious, it went right past me! But now that I know:hex. 30 ... was ... what I got when I asked the question: What is the connection between Chih Yu and Fu Hsi?
Since these are mythic beings / ancestors / we may have no idea of when - or even if - they 'lived' or for how long (a 100 or a 1,000 years, forever?); and we don't know whom they actually were.Around 2698 BC. Chih Yu (Txiv Yawg) lost the battle against The Yellow Emperor (Huang-ti) at Cho Lo (Zhuolu). Fu Hsi is said to have been living around 2852 BC .... Are (these) two different persons? But could they have a common source ?
.... since these are mythic beings / ancestors / heroes, we may have no idea of when - or even if - they 'lived' or for how long (a 100 or a 1,000 years, forever?); and we don't know whom they actually were.
We're talking about the mythic realms of Raven Giving Birth to the First Humans (Haida First Nations) Zeus; Isis; the Archangel Gabriel; Tawa, the Hopi sun spirit; the Mayan Hero Twins .... but that doesn't mean they didn't have a common source, or that they weren't two (and not one) mythical beings.
Surnevs, I am not sure what you're getting at here? Maybe you are just asking a simple question: why would they assign dates to mythical beings, and how did they arrive at these dates?I agree in that mythical beings can't be dated .... I haven't got the clue as to the sources from where those datings has been obtained - but somehow they wouldn't give datings without any kind of material given ?
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).