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yly2pg1 said:Quote:
Alvin Plantinga's modern ontological proof for the existence of God:
...
...
5. Therefore, an omniscient, omnipotent and perfectly good being exists. (By 4 and since necessarily true propositions are true.)
rosada said:The argument here - as I understand it - seems to be that the existence of suffering is proof that there is no God because if there were an all powerful, all knowing, all good diety, suffering would not exist. However experience shows that suffering actually causes people to feel there is - and that they are personally connected to - an all powerful caring supreme diety. So maybe we need a whole 'nother line of reasoning to approach this riddle.
yly2pg1 said:(1) In Yi, the metaphors are grounded in the "archetype" of Yin/Yang .
yly2pg1 said:...
(2) In the West (and to a great extend the civilization of mankind) for the past 2000+ years, the metaphors are grounded to the "architect" of the archetype.
rinda said:Theodicy per Rinda holds that in order for there to be any kind of creation or manifestation there has to bve some kind of boundary or limit. Once those are established there exists the possibility that those boundaries may be broached, hurt, deformed, etc.,etc, and thus by extension, suffering.
In order to experience love, good fortune, to gain wisdom, the opposites must exist somewhere. IMO it's foolish to think we can escape one or the other....
nicky_p said:I think it ends up a semantical argument. ...
Personally, I don’t think the argument is about God. I think it’s about the institution of religion and trying to break that down. It just so happens that you can’t argue one without the other.
yly2pg1 said:(1) In Yi, the metaphors are grounded in the "archetype" of Yin/Yang .
bradford said:No, they're not. Yang doesn't even appear in the Zhouyi.
And Yin appears only once, as shade the crane hide in.
Neither are night and day grounded in the archeytpe of yin/yang.
These are grounded in the earth turning around.
bradford said:No, they're not. Yang doesn't even appear in the Zhouyi.
And Yin appears only once, as shade the crane hide in.
Neither are night and day grounded in the archeytpe of yin/yang.
These are grounded in the earth turning around.
bruce_g said:It doesn't change the phenomenon of light and dark.
bradford said:Well, there you said it. Phenomena, not numina. Not fundamental, not elemental.
Not in themselves existing without both a point of view and an organ of sense.
Put an eyeball into the darkest part of space and it, too, will see a sky full of stars.
Some believe that Yin and Yang are ontologically or metaphysically real and
prior to light and dark like some sort of Platonic form or ideal. Even some of the
Han Dynasty comments on the Zhouyi, in and out of the Ten Wings, assert this.
I just don't go to that church. Most of what we talk about is formed in our heads,
from our senses and our languages.
lindsay said:Brad, are you saying the Yi is not based on an underlying theory of dualism? Yep, I agree with that if you are. Also, are you saying that what is real is the many, the ten thousand things? Metaphysical schemes like dualism are derived from thinking about the ten thousands things. But dualism did not create the ten thousand things, they were all here first. Maybe this isn't what you're saying?
"The divine", with the understanding that the fact that the king makes sacrifices to thisSpeaking of God, how do you translate di4 帝 in 42.2?
lindsay said:Umm, we're getting into pretty deep water here - could someone throw me a lifeline or two?
On "Theodicy per Rinda", Rinda said: "In order to experience love, good fortune, to gain wisdom, the opposites must exist somewhere. IMO it's foolish to think we can escape one or the other...." Rinda, are you saying some things imply the existence of their opposites? Wisdom implies foolishness, good implies evil, love implies hate, good luck implies bad luck? That seems reasonable but there is another possibility. St. Augustine said evil was merely the absence of good. You could say foolishness is the absence of wisdom, or hate the absence of love. In this way, the only truly existing qualities are goodness, love, wisdom, and so on, and the lack of these qualities creates pain and suffering and sin and all kinds of other problems.
<snip>
Lindsay
lindsay said:Bruce, I think a lot depends on how much importance we give to the hexagrams as symbols. Certainly there are only two kinds of lines, whole and broken. But how important was that in determining (or assigning) meaning to the hexagrams? It is also true there are quite a few hexagrams with paired meanings, but their line texts rarely parallel each other. You could also argue the underlying basis of the Yi is the eight trigrams, but again the text is difficult to reconcile with this notion. I'm not at all sure the Yi was first invented by a systematic philosopher.
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
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