The meaning of "perserverence"

[Qiaozhi Yeats]

I struggle with the meaning of this word, there is stillness within movement, movement within stillness, chan, zen, yi jing, it is basically an indication to seek purpose'?'

 

[my_key]

Hi Q

Perseverance in one dictionary says it is "persistence in doing something despite difficulty or delay in achieving success."

 

[Freedda]

Similar to what my_key shared, it means to keep at it, to keep making effort. I think the Yi also often gives some sense of how to do that.

 

[bradford]

Technically, the word is Zhen, not persistence. It's always challenging to find a single English word for a Chinese character. Perseverance is close, but it doesn't cover it all. So is persistence. From my extended glossary:
zhen1 0346 834g 154+2 01.0 (a, the) persistence, determination, resolve, resolution, stamina, focus, loyalty, fidelity, devotion, firmness, steadiness, holding power, staying power, constancy, consistency, steadfastness, commitment, survival, perseverance, truth, loyalty, purity, virtue, rectitude, ethic, (moral, ethical) integrity, firmness of word; a divination inquiry; (to be) persistent, determined, resolved, resolute, focused, loyal, firm, steady, constant, consistent, steadfast, committed, dedicated, sustained, true, real, correct, straight, genuine, earnest, tested, tried, certain, chronic; (to) persist, resolve, stand fast, keep going, continue, focus, test, try (out), examine, observe, verify, correct, resolve a doubt, settle a question, inquire by divination, forsee; steadfastly, clearly, truly, unmistakably, really; (In earlier Shang times Zhen1 meant to divine, especially with a good auspice, and this implication still exists in the Zhouyi in places. By the Zhou it meant to test, try out, or correct (the verb true). The common thread is to discover and track that which persists through the changes).

 

[my_key]

Technically, the word is Zhen, not persistence. It's always challenging to find a single English word for a Chinese character. Perseverance is close, but it doesn't cover it all. So is persistence. From my extended glossary:
zhen1 0346 834g 154+2 01.0 (a, the) persistence, determination, resolve, resolution, stamina, focus, loyalty, fidelity, devotion, firmness, steadiness, holding power, staying power, constancy, consistency, steadfastness, commitment, survival, perseverance, truth, loyalty, purity, virtue, rectitude, ethic, (moral, ethical) integrity, firmness of word; a divination inquiry; (to be) persistent, determined, resolved, resolute, focused, loyal, firm, steady, constant, consistent, steadfast, committed, dedicated, sustained, true, real, correct, straight, genuine, earnest, tested, tried, certain, chronic; (to) persist, resolve, stand fast, keep going, continue, focus, test, try (out), examine, observe, verify, correct, resolve a doubt, settle a question, inquire by divination, forsee; steadfastly, clearly, truly, unmistakably, really; (In earlier Shang times Zhen1 meant to divine, especially with a good auspice, and this implication still exists in the Zhouyi in places. By the Zhou it meant to test, try out, or correct (the verb true). The common thread is to discover and track that which persists through the changes).

Hi Bradford
Your extended glossary looks to point towards Zhen saying something about the wider aspects of an application of a strong and skilful will. Then, with time this would assist with the development of a finer good will element to our will that would help with tracking that which persists through the changes.

I've been wondering for a while now whether just our contact with Yi is a training ground for our will.

 

[Qiaozhi Yeats]

Hi Bradford
Your extended glossary looks to point towards Zhen saying something about the wider aspects of an application of a strong and skilful will. Then, with time this would assist with the development of a finer good will element to our will that would help with tracking that which persists through the changes.

I've been wondering for a while now whether just our contact with Yi is a training ground for our will.

What is the old character for Zhen, I'm a bit ropey with Chinese keyboards, can only really prepare food and plants with water, and Google translate only works in one direction I think, or can you type the transliteration in and get a character;?; Machine translations can be quite effective, though my Shaolin teacher told me that it was very artificial and I know how badly they struggle even with Latin based oriental languages. I hope that's not offensive, I'm Greek and "orient" is the Greek word for "east" not "orientation" which is an English word, I know folks in the U.S. can get a bit picky about language. So if someone could provide a character, and maybe a line which features it in context as well with some indication of the numerology, that would be great. I'm just reflecting the method man, if ye ken sah;?; (apologies if my schizophrenia sounds weird)

 

[my_key]

"What is the old character for Zhen"
I'm too young to be able to help you.

 

[fai_35]

What is the old character for Zhen, ...

貞
the simplified character is: 贞

 

[bradford]

They are here:

Chinese Etymology 字源

Chinese Etymology 字源, Chinese character history and ancient Chinaese character (Orachle characters, Bronze characters, Seal characters, Shuowen Jiezi, Liushutong) analysis and research 汉字历史和古汉字(甲骨文, 金文, 篆字, 说文解字, 六书通)研究与分析. Search 100K+ ancient Chinese characters and etymology. 查询10万+古汉字和字源.

hanziyuan.net

 

[Qiaozhi Yeats]

貞
the simplified character is: 贞

It looks like a pressure cooker, perhaps related to the cauldron, on a fire with the lid secured. I think this is most helpful. I have struggled with interpreting it as movement within stillness and stillness within movement, but the image I describe above in relation to the character helps me a lot. Thanks.

 

[Freedda]

They are here:

Chinese Etymology 字源

Chinese Etymology 字源, Chinese character history and ancient Chinaese character (Orachle characters, Bronze characters, Seal characters, Shuowen Jiezi, Liushutong) analysis and research 汉字历史和古汉字(甲骨文, 金文, 篆字, 说文解字, 六书通)研究与分析. Search 100K+ ancient Chinese characters and etymology. 查询10万+古汉字和字源.

hanziyuan.net

In Bradford Hatchers' 'Yijing word for word', we have:

Hex. 1.0 - Zhen: persistence, determination, resolve, loyalty​

I also took a look at the 'Uncle Hanzi' webpage for Zhen, where it says:

Zhen, original meaning: to cast a fortune (perhaps to divine?)
Current meanings: virtuous, caste, pure, loyal.
Example usage; 'zhen jie' = honesty.

Deomposition:
- bone-crack & (cracking bones for oracle bone divination?)
- container (ding)
And also:
- fire in the ding (container)
- to crack bones
- to cast fortunes​

So, this made me wonder, if these various meaning might lead us to different places, depending a lot on when the Yi was written - as word meanings changed over time. So, we have:

'The greatest fulfillment rewards persistence (zhen)' (Hatcher)

... and also ...

'Greatly accepted offering. Favourable to divine (zhen)' (Mesker)
​

Best, D.

 

[fai_35]

It looks like a pressure cooker, perhaps related to the cauldron, on a fire with the lid secured. I think this is most helpful. I have struggled with interpreting it as movement within stillness and stillness within movement, but the image I describe above in relation to the character helps me a lot. Thanks.

Interesting approach letting the image 貞 'speak'. Perhaps a look at the Chinese Etymology by Uncle Hanzi as suggested by Bradford and Freedda might add further insights...

To me, i lean towards the older 'original' meaning reading 貞 as 'to cast an oracle', 'to divine' (verb) or 'divination', 'portent', 'pronouncement' (noun).

So i read Hexagram 1 Judgement: 元亨利贞 to mean 元 sublime 亨 prosperous, successful, go smoothly, unobstructed 利 propitious, opportune; advantageous, beneficial 贞 divination.

18.2 offers an example of 貞 as a verb, viz., 干母之蛊，不可贞. Rendering to english: 干remedy, attend to, work with, correct 母 mother 之[particle] __’s, one’s 蛊 leftovers (spoiled, rotting with worms); decaying mess，不 no, not 可 can, approved of, permissible; appropriate 贞

So i read 干母之蛊 to mean: Work with the mess mother left behind and 不可贞 as it is not appropriate to divine. Perhaps in the sense that in order to work with the mess mother left behind, it is not appropriate to dig to the very root of things; broad leeways may work better.

 

[Freedda]

So i read to mean: Work with the mess mother left behind ... as it is not appropriate to divine. Perhaps ... that in order to work with the mess mother left behind, it is not appropriate to dig to the very root of things; broad leeways may work better.

Thanks for sharing this. I think that's a reasonable interpretation of - or commentary on - 18.2.

I'd offer just another take, not more right nor wrong, just how I might see it:

'You know what you need to work on - mother's 'toxicity'. To do this work, you do not need to rely any more on the Yi, or divination - you simply need to do it.'

It might be like the farmer's wife telling her husband, 'quit reading your horoscope, and stop throwing those three stupid coins of yours, and just get out and plow the field!'

 

[fai_35]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Freedda, a slightly different way to read 不可贞
On another note, maybe the farmer just want to delay getting out to plow That said, i can totally identify with the farmer.