The Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris, Why ?

[Trojina]

I can see the time of day and the time going to bed mattering if it places the reading at a particular moment in a breaking news event. The reading would have been cast at a moment when certain information was known, but not other information, and that could make a difference in how Yi answers it.

If that's what Moss Elk had in mind then I understand completely. If Moss meant something else, then I also would appreciate more explanation. [MENTION=13617]Moss Elk[/MENTION] - ?

No he didn't mean that. He meant as the matter was of little personal consequence for Svrenus Yi was actually advising him to go to bed and wasn't talking about Notre dame at all.

I think it's a valid take on it.

He said what he meant in post 26.

 

[Liselle]

Svenrus was thinking /concerned/ worried about this matter (that he has no real vested interest in.) 30 minutes before his usual bed time. (This is a time that is best used to relax before sleeping.) He asked Yi a question about the matter and Yi told him to give it a rest. Looks pretty simple and obvious to me.

Oh, sorry, I missed that . Ignore the @ mention, Moss - sorry.

You're looking at 17's Image - okay, well, not sure if I'd draw the same conclusion - maybe, maybe not - but thanks for bringing it up. The fire was detected in the evening, so there might be a point in there.

 

[Liselle]

@Trojina; - yes, I did see that - see my subsequent post - and then post-crossing which could have been avoided if I'd used the eyes in my head .

On the other hand I'm really not sure I agree that Yi was telling Yi to go to bed. I mean, unless there was some hugely overriding reason for Sven not to stay up a few minutes longer that day...it seems weird for that to be Yi's answer, I think. Not impossible, just odd.

 

[Liselle]

On the other hand I'm really not sure I agree that Yi was telling Yi to go to bed. I mean, unless there was some hugely overriding reason for Sven not to stay up a few minutes longer that day...it seems weird for that to be Yi's answer, I think. Not impossible, just odd.

Actually I think I did wonder in an earlier post if 17 meant "you'll find out the cause in due course." Which isn't completely different from "go to bed" - ack - if you combine "find out in due course" with the Image you could get "go to bed and wait for the reporters to tell you" - okay, could be, I withdraw my objection lol

 

[Trojina]

The Notre Dame could be going to bed - I don't know.

There's probably a lot of factual information now ?

Actually I think I did wonder in an earlier post if 17 meant "you'll find out the cause in due course." Which isn't completely different from "go to bed" - ack - if you combine "find out in due course" with the Image you could get "go to bed and wait for the reporters to tell you" - okay, could be, I withdraw my objection lol

It isn't so different from 'you'll find out in due course' no.

 

[moss elk]

Actually, my first thought, when reading Moss Elk's comment, was Moss Elk joking but as I'm not in friendly connection with M.E. and thereby not sure about that.

I guess it is true that I can be hard to read,
sometimes I joke, sometimes I'm grouchy, sometimes calmly helpful.
(whatever mode I'm in, I'm still trying to help.)
So let me correct that,
I sent you a friend request svenrus.

:bows:

 

[moss elk]

You're looking at 17's Image - okay,

Right, when you get an unchanging hex,
Based on my experience, I feel that is the most important time to read and reflect on the image.
(excluding questions where you want a judgement or evaluation on the auspice of an idea or plan.)

Hilary could comment on this about a 36 unchanging reading that was done in regards to a changing the way moderation was handled.
(were it an auspice of the change, it would have been dreadful.
as advice though, it worked perfectly)

 

[MeherBabaFan]

Hi Trojina

Just to take the opportunity:
Over the many years of checking in on this forum, I've always felt I could rely on a post when it had your name above it, finding you to be a reliable, grounded and insightful commenter here. These are not readily available qualities in forums on the internets I've benefited a lot from your Unchanging Hexagram thread posts also.

Trojina: From that I thought it was your thread, then realised it wasn't - it's Svrenus's so how can you be disappointed. That is how can you be disappointed it's about the 'how' when that is the question Svrenus posted. You'd need to start your own thread to be less disappointed in the direction of the thread I think.


Fair enough. But the Subject of this thread is 'Notre Dame fire: Why?'


Trojina : There isn't always a benefit to everything. Child abuse ? Mass starvation. I could go on.

I didn't spell it out making the obviously erroneous assumption everyone would be on the same 'page'. Yin and Yang - they are always blended. They don't exist in isolation. The most extreme Yin or Y ang manifestation always contains some of the other. No one is going to argue that
suffering is a positive thing. But the spiritual and the material are often at odds. This brings much confusion for us mere mortals. Yi finds this contradiction endlessly entertaining, and is in the perfect position to comprehend this dichotomy, and thus support us to reconcile this conflict in our life, should we phrase our questions wisely

Our souls are seeking spiritual development, unconciously or conciously, as an individual, as a family, as a society, as a planet. Certain events are so potent, so charged, we are siezed by them. Something like Notre Dame burning is lets say a 'meta' event. Look at how the entire world responded. Sure we can say 'stuff happens'. Or, we can feel motivated to peel back the layers.
As Oscar Wilde commented , woe befall those whom seek to interpret the symbols used by an artist. It's perhaps a dangerous occuption to attempt interpretations on spiritual motivations for meta-events. Does this mean we should we give up looking for any motivation in anything - those of us more reflective - reflection being a quality surely possessed by all acknowledging the Yi as a Well of wisdom, and whom respect it for more than merely answers to courtship questions or fortune telling.
Should all give up and go home then, and only use the Yi for more mundane matters ? /sarc
Mind you, purely conceptual or theretical questions appear to be far less successful than
ones a) with a practical orientation b) concerning ourselves, or at least our lives, personally

As to 'why' in the spiritual sense, you aren't going to know - you can make out it is something to do with how destructive the church is but then you could say similar things about any building that was destroyed...I mean things do get destroyed. If an insurance office burns down is that because it's a 'bad' place ? If a house burns down does it mean the people who lived there are wicked ?

I understand. I'm defintely not getting all new age woo-woo, I'm guessing I react to that level of perception as much as you. But we are not talking about an insurance office. And not just 'any' fire. We are talking about Notre Dame. It's not just not 'any' building, it's also not just 'any' church. It's not even on the level of the Sydney Harbour Bridge, the Eiffel Tower, or the Golden Gate Bridge or Big Ben or whatever. It's in another category of building, monument, religious icon and thus event.


A place burned down - saying as if it were some kind of fact that it happened because of 'freeing the burden of suffering represented by the church' is just an idea your friend had nothing more.

I don't understand what you mean here. Except for, perhaps, my friends perspective is just a perspective [which incidentally you don't align with]

In kindness, from Sydney Australia xoxox

 

[MeherBabaFan]

Hi Trojina. I can add, on the last point of the Church as an icon of causing suffering. When something bad happens, we can hurt. Or we can we seek to reframe the event. There's always opportunity for seeing things in a new light. Responses to the fire may range from

'Notre Dame, what a loss'.
' Finally!'
' Now, a chance for that improvement my architect ancestor 300 years ago never got to implement'
'Perhaps now the Presidency will remember those of us in the suburbs and villages'

Reframing, as we all do, may or may not correlate with how the Yi perceives an event we consult upon

 

[svenrus]

Hi all,

I'm sorry for having caused some mess here. I can now see that the "Why ?" should had been a "How ?" as the "Why ?" surely implements questions of higher/ or deeper levels. My wondering when I heard the news that evening was simply: How could that happen ?

 

[Trojina]

Hi all,

I'm sorry for having caused some mess here. I can now see that the "Why ?" should had been a "How ?" as the "Why ?" surely implements questions of higher/ or deeper levels. My wondering when I heard the news that evening was simply: How could that happen ?

you haven't caused any mess as far as I can see. If someone wants to ask 'why' on higher or deeper levels they could start their own their own thread. Asking 'why' did it burn down most certainly can be taken as 'what caused it to burn down', that is how most English speakers would take it. So the way you phrased your question was fine.

Not everyone imagines there is actually some grander reason they have access to which enables them pronounce upon the spiritual causes of events. I certainly don't, I find it pretty much an exercise in the imagination. That is 'meherbaba's' musings for me are just musings hardly any kind of 'why'.

Also

Hex. 17 could be - as Moss Elk mention - a reaction to a whole other issue than Notre Dame but this is a discussion about my personal ability to consult I Ching... Good night for now.

I don't think Moss Elk's interpretation it was a discussion about your ability to consult Yi, it was just an alternative interpretation which may or may not be true.

 

[svenrus]

Thank You Troy,

And I admit that Moss Elk could have a point here. Simply because I were confused receiving hex. 17. I did not read the Wilhelm translation, I read the translation given by Kerson Huang:

Tag: The Chase,

"Sign of Great Sacrifice.
Auspicious Omen.
No troubles." 1)

This was the answer to: Notre Dame, Paris ?

Confused I were just having heard that this majestic symbol of European culture and basic wisdom was burnt nearly down... And my first reaction was actually that the I shaked her head upon me, sort of: Silly, silly boy - what is this of Your concern ?

Until I occasionally spotted the Bottom Nine:

"A house damaged.
Good omen.
Get out and achieve." 1)

And my reaction: What ? A house damaged ! And I repeat it here (#1) because this brought me in doubt to as whether the I actually were shaking her head at me but rather that I had got an exact answer to my question - and finally: that hex. 17 did answer my question concerning the accident concerning the Notre Dame cathedral.
And it was this doubt that forced me to post it here in this forum.

I would lean on the cause of the fire to be that mentioned in #20 namely uncareful handling with linseed oil as it fit with the attributes of the trigrams.

1) I Ching, The Oracle. Revised Edition. World Scientific. Cop. 2014 USA.

 

[Trojina]

No other translation says 'a house damaged' I don't think, at least it's the first time I've ever heard of it.

From wiki Hilary's translation is

'An official has a change of heart.
Constancy, good fortune.
Going out of the gates, joining with others, there is achievement.'


I don't recall any other translation saying a house damaged ? Bradford's just says 'standards will change' something like that, nothing about damaged houses. Nor Wilhelm so maybe Kerson Huang is way off - hang on I think I have it - aha I do have it, well an I Ching translation by Kerson and Rosemary Huang. I don't use it as it's way out IMO.

They call 16 'weariness'. They call 45 'illness'...I mean not being a translator myself I can't pass judgement on the quality of theirs it's just quite often theirs departs a lot from most of the others. However I'm glad you reminded me of it it does have some rather interesting takes on lines and so on.

 

[svenrus]

No, it don't seems so. John Minford get close to it thou:

"Inn collapses.
Auspicious Divination.
A crossing outdoors
Brings success"

in I Ching section II, Viking N.Y. 2014

Yet I can't hardly compare Notre Dame in Paris with an Inn

 

[svenrus]

Richard Rutt got it more obvious:

"A building collapses.
Augury auspicious.
Being crossed on leaving home: there will be success."

in Zhouyi a bronze-age document. Routledge London & New York, cop. 1996

But OK: Notre Dame didn't collapse.

Another thing: I have been thinking on the hexagram as depicting Notre Dame....

​

 

[moss elk]

Why are you reading line 1?
You didn't get line 1.
You got 17 unchanging.

 

[Trojina]

See post 1

And yes, the answer to me wasn't this first line but: A house damaged ???

 

[svenrus]

Because the hexagram UC didn't gave meaning and I was ready to accept that I haven't got a respons from I Ching, that this question simply was out of mine concern, not for me to worry about UNTIL I spotted this: "a house damaged". Later You pointed out that Kerson Huang (& Rosemary) were the only who used this translation and I, as a response to this, found that two more translators used it, more or less...
But I think that, if an answer is to be found it will be in the attributes of the trigrams.

All in all: I got hex. 17 UC and was ready to accept that no answer were to be found at all.

 

[Trojina]

Svrenus Moss Elk asked you this not me. It sounded like you thought I had asked you.

Moss Elk


Why are you reading line 1?
You didn't get line 1.
You got 17 unchanging

 

[moss elk]

sigh,
If you are going to do that,
(which ignores the answer you did get)
you may as well look for meaning in the name of the publishing company or play numerology with the page # it appeared on.

 

[svenrus]

Sorry. Yes now I see it was M.E. asking this.

 

[svenrus]

Moss Elk, actually some while ago I had a reading were the answer rather lied in the depictions of the trigram than in the text (Link #3 in the thread) but I think my divinatory skills isn't at that level... I mean had my skills been at that level I would immediately have seen it and not afterwards.

 

[moss elk]

Ok, fine.
whatever floats your boat.

But don't make the mistake of believing you are consulting the I Ching when you do that.

 

[svenrus]

Thank You for your comments.

 

[rosada]

At the risk of starting the insurrection, I suggest there are multiple ways to consult the I Ching.

Whatever, I found the coincidence of a description of a collapsed building in a hexagram meant to explain Notre Dame extremely compelling. Thank you svenrus.

 

[svenrus]

Today I searched for news and the closest was from CNN who declared that they'll end their reports with the statement that the burning of Notre Dame in Paris was caused by an accident.

And I agree with You rosada

 

[Liselle]

At the risk of starting the insurrection, I suggest there are multiple ways to consult the I Ching.

Agreed. There are (to list a few): what Hilary teaches in Foundations -- trigrams a la Harmen Mesker -- Plum Blossom/Nanjing/etc. (am clueless, those probably aren't even the right names) -- transitional hexagrams -- rules which reduce multiple moving lines to one -- etc. etc. etc.

Having said that, I still have trouble with the idea of finding "the answer" in a specific line of an unchanging reading, or in a reading with other lines changing. If hexagram 17, line 1 was the answer, why wouldn't Yi have given that as the reading, instead of 17 unchanging?

[Aside: this is different, to me, from looking over all the lines of an unchanging reading for a "zeitgeist," so to speak. For instance, if you get 34uc, Great Vigor, there's a general warning in the lines about too much vigor. It's part of the hexagram overall. Or - something like hexagram 50, which tells a story. 50uc might mean the whole story will apply. I've seen one I think is like that.]


Theoretically, an explanation for what Sven did might be that Yi really did mean line 1, but didn't mean the relating hexagram that goes along with it (45, in this case). That's not completely different from what I just said about 50uc as "this whole story, but without a relating hexagram," which distinguishes 50uc from 50.1.2.3.4.5.6 > 3. (Except, if you're picking out one line, you have to know or intuit which line to pick out, if it's not "all of them.")

...So, maybe. It seems too twisty, to me, but ...maybe. (I think I'd probably do a reading about it. "Yi, what do you have to say about this interpretation idea?" or something.)


Also, there's this on the subject, for those in Change Circle.

 

[Trojina]

Theoretically, an explanation for what Sven did might be that Yi really did mean line 1, but didn't mean the relating hexagram that goes along with it (45, in this case).

If the answer had been 17.1 it would have been 17.1. That is a very peculiar thought you are expressing....a really bizarre thought, that Yi didn't want to give 45 but meant 17.1 ...I mean come on ….

As you know I'm always 100% maybe 99.9% of the view all answers are for us. That is who Yi answers, us. If we want facts about the outer world it is more efficient to go and find out fact from the outer world. I think I'd probably agree this answer of 17uc was most likely a 'just go along with what transpires about it/rest'. After all surely there are actual investigations now ? I don't know as I don't follow it on the news. Oh yes I see Svrenus saw it was an accident on the news.

Agreed. There are (to list a few): what Hilary teaches in Foundations -- trigrams a la Harmen Mesker -- Plum Blossom/Nanjing/etc. (am clueless, those probably aren't even the right names) -- transitional hexagrams -- rules which reduce multiple moving lines to one -- etc. etc. etc.

There's all that but there is not more than one actual true answer from Yi. I mean there can be many interpretations from various angles but it does boil down to one answer. This forum is mainly text based interpretation so people coming in with all those rule based approaches are asked to say what system they use. It does not make sense at all to say 'this is the answer using text and this is the answer using a rule based method like wengwanggua etc . There aren't 2 entirely different answers from the I Ching.




I think if something really catches your eye, here for Svrenus line 1, then I think that's a valid kind of approach. He just happened to be using a particular translation which referred to a damaged building and this held his attention. Synchronicity ? That is IMO, using intuition, still using divinatory skills. For example sometimes people take just one word from a hexagram and it answers everything for them, I've had that, that is part of genuine divination, noticing and following where your awareness goes. Ah I used the word 'following'. To me Svrenus seems quite intent on his quest, quite focused. maybe the Notre Dame means something personally to him and so he follows his hunches where they lead him.

 

[svenrus]

I did receive hex. 17 UC and this compared with my question didn't gave any meaning except maybe if looking at it beyond (without looking at - ) the received text, I mean when looking at the pictorial aspect + the attributes of the trigrams. This, I know, afford divinatory skills not given to me (I think) not thereby saying that an answer could'nt be drawn out of such a reading... (Somehow the oracle is the six lines, the six lines given long before any texts were added to them)

 

[svenrus]

Wrote this #59 before I saw Trojina's post (crossings)