The Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris, Why ?

[svenrus]

Yes ! Can You imagine: The reason for the fire was an accident ? (Or: are CNN not allowed to inform futher details because in reality the investigations for the cause goes on...)

 

[svenrus]

John Minford (quoted here earlier) gives both texts, the text we usually use + the earlier layers (don't remember the sinological terms)

 

[svenrus]

OMG ! forget to recall that my thread here was caused on confusion: Confusion about that hex. 17 UC gave me absolutely no idea at all to why/how the fire started.

 

[svenrus]

- and to make a shortcut over the endless repetitions i'll stick on to the cause for the fire being careless handling with linseed oil as MeherBabaFan mentions. The other reasons mentioned here worth the same as to be the cause in respect.
This whole thread maybe an exercise in exploring the cause of the fire in a reading before the officials in France informs us ???

(Thank to this Forum for sharpen my english )

 

[moss elk]

At the risk of starting the insurrection, I suggest there are multiple ways to consult the I Ching.

When you say: "ways to consult",
I assume you mean: "ways to interpret"

There are exactly three ways one can interpret: 1-correctly, 2-incorrectly, and 3-partially correct/partially incorrect.

 

[Liselle]

If the answer had been 17.1 it would have been 17.1. That is a very peculiar thought you are expressing....a really bizarre thought, that Yi didn't want to give 45 but meant 17.1 ...I mean come on

I actually do agree with you, really I do. That's why I went on to say

It seems too twisty, to me

I was just theorizing (probably foolishly), once I realized it's not entirely different from an unchanging hexagram meaning things like "it'll be this whole story"? (What I said about 50uc.)

In the 50uc example, I really can't explain why Yi said 50uc rather than 50.1.2.3.4.5.6 > 3, since 3 fits the situation, too...I don't know, maybe Yi was stressing 50 more than the lines, and to get that across just gave the hexagram? Something like, "this is your vessel, period, even though, okay, true, you're still working on it" - ?

But what Sven did with 17.1 isn't quite the same, and maybe the details make all the difference.

I appreciate what you went on to say here:

There's all that but there is not more than one actual true answer from Yi. I mean there can be many interpretations from various angles but it does boil down to one answer. This forum is mainly text based interpretation so people coming in with all those rule based approaches are asked to say what system they use. It does not make sense at all to say 'this is the answer using text and this is the answer using a rule based method like wengwanggua etc . There aren't 2 entirely different answers from the I Ching.

I think if something really catches your eye, here for Svrenus line 1, then I think that's a valid kind of approach. He just happened to be using a particular translation which referred to a damaged building and this held his attention. Synchronicity ? That is IMO, using intuition, still using divinatory skills. For example sometimes people take just one word from a hexagram and it answers everything for them, I've had that, that is part of genuine divination, noticing and following where your awareness goes. Ah I used the word 'following'. To me Svrenus seems quite intent on his quest, quite focused. maybe the Notre Dame means something personally to him and so he follows his hunches where they lead him.

I think I'd probably agree this answer of 17uc was most likely a 'just go along with what transpires about it/rest'.

I like that idea, too.

After all surely there are actual investigations now ? I don't know as I don't follow it on the news. Oh yes I see Svrenus saw it was an accident on the news.

But, I can see how "it was an accident" is part of an explanation but not a complete one, and we do sometimes look to Yi for more than we can get from the news. Maybe Yi's saying it can't explain it to us in a way we'd ever understand?

Or maybe, using the sequence -

Playing around with the sequence a little bit...

15 - "structural integrity," a need to make repairs
16 - something 16-ish (in a bad way) happening as a result (and 16 involves another thunder trigram)
17 - one thing following another; the fire took some time to get going enough to be noticed down below?

The answer to "Why?" might be: "Because it took too long for the fire to be noticed" along with 15 and 16 preceding that. If anyone had noticed it sooner, earlier in the day before work ended and there was no one around (17's Image), maybe it could have been put out with a lot less damage?

The Pair text for 15-16 says, "Integrity takes itself lightly; Enthusiasm is careless." So maybe as people have said, some sort of carelessness was involved. Cigarettes or something. I don't know.

Yes ! Can You imagine: The reason for the fire was an accident ? (Or: are CNN not allowed to inform futher details because in reality the investigations for the cause goes on...)

If investigations are still going on, I think CNN would just say that.

- and to make a shortcut over the endless repetitions i'll stick on to the cause for the fire being careless handling with linseed oil

Were they using linseed oil up in the spire, though? Didn't the fire start in the spire, not down in the cathedral itself?

 

[rosada]

fwiw - I think it's worth noting that Svenrus did not say 17.1 was an answer to his original question, "Notre Dame, why?"

As I understand it, he only mentioned 17.1 as an interesting synchronicity when the response he got to his question did not make sense to him and he was beginning to wonder if 17uc was not meant to apply to the question he asked at all and might instead be some sort of off-topic advice from the IC like, "Stop asking questions and go to bed."

When 17.1 "The house collapses" caught his eye it seemed to him to be validation that the IC had indeed been talking about the cathedral and therefore 17uc was to be interpreted as the answer to "why Notre Dame?"

 

[Trojina]

I see what you mean with your 50uc example Liselle, it makes more sense now, I hadn't taken that bit in.

 

[Liselle]

(clicking "Thanks" doesn't quite convey the "...ohhh" reaction I'm having)


(crossed posts with Trojina - the above was meant in response to Rosada's post about synchronicity vs. "the answer" for 17.1)


(I've thanked both of you now, though )

 

[moss elk]

Could Thunder below Lake symbolize a live electrical cord in water?

No, wrong element.
Thunder is not fire, it is shocking sound and movement. Li is Fire/electricity.

 

[moss elk]

... I Ching translation by Kerson and Rosemary Huang...
They call 16 'weariness'. They call 45 'illness'...

svenrus, these names given by Kerson/ Huang are terribly off the mark.
Please invite me over to a book burning party! (I'll rob a skinhead and steal his copy of mein kampf to add to the pyre)


Please clarify, does Kerson/Huang recommend looking at the first line, or did your eyes just wander there?
(I'm still confused)

 

[Trojina]

I think he has said several times now that his eyes just wandered there. Yes he has clearly said his eyes just wondered there more than once so you shouldn't be confused.

Also I looked up my Kerson Huang which may not be exactly what Svrenus used,

You quoted me not Svrenus hopefully you are aware of that.

 

[moss elk]

Yes, I quoted you because you informed me of those terrible names.

I read through his first post, and m.e. still needed clarification. (possibly because of language differences, I don't know)

 

[Trojina]

So you can't see the rest of the book if you are just going by my quote which actually may not be the names in Svrenus's book. Even those names are justifiable to a degree. He also used Minford and someone else.

 

[moss elk]

Even those names are justifiable to a degree.

Do tell, how so?
(I'm preparing popcorn to watch an incredible stretch of logic)

 

[Trojina]

No, wrong element.
Thunder is not fire, it is shocking sound and movement. Li is Fire/electricity.

Actually in terms of trigrams it's pretty loose so I don't see why you think you are so very correct. Electricity can be thunder and you can't say it isn't as if you know for a fact. Thunder is electricity what else do you think it is ?

What do you actually think thunder is ?

 

[moss elk]

I know for a fact that electricity is light and fire. and that thunder is sound and percussive force that happens after lightning.
Do you know some fact I do not?

 

[Trojina]

Do tell, how so?
(I'm preparing popcorn to watch an incredible stretch of logic)

I didn't write the book nor am I defending it but 16 could be called 'weariness' because the advice in 16 is to enliven, make music, shake off weariness.

45 as 'illness' can be to do with the fact one needs to gather all one's resources together in order to meet something. You only have to think of how white blood cells gather at the site of a wound.

So I don't think these are good names for these hexagrams either but as you don't actually have the book how do you make your judgment ?


As I said thunder is electricity and if it isn't I don't know WTF it is. It is part of the lightening.

Moss Elk
I know for a fact that electricity is light and fire. and that thunder is sound and percussive force that happens after lightning.
Do you know some fact I do not?

In terms of trigram interpretation in readings there's not a lot that can be called hard fact. If someone gets a feel for the lower trigram, thunder, as electrical shakeup you can't pronounce it as wrong.

 

[moss elk]

Ok mate,
every thought is true and equal and valid

I welcome everyone to macaroni art hour.

 

[Trojina]

That's rather rude and you know quite well that is not what I am saying.

And actually with trigrams it actually is largely macaroni hour it's certainly not hard fact is it !


Have you got the right trigram for apple ? Orange ? Banana ? Is it a fact ?

 

[moss elk]

was it the popcorn or the macaroni that was rude?

 

[Trojina]

Some say Nostradamus predicted the fire and said it heralded the decline of our species. Some say he didn't say that.

It certainly seems the kind of thing Nostradamus would predict.

 

[Liselle]

Hilary is quite careful in her trigrams module, in the quiz, to say that there aren't "right" answers, necessarily. She has her ideas, but if people envision a situation differently than she does, they'll have different trigram associations.

Thunder and lightning are part of the same phenomenon, but I agree they're not the same thing. Electricity is in the lightning, not in the thunder.

But, when someone is talking about a live electrical wire that may have caused sparks to start a fire, I think I can see a thunder-like quality in that. Hilary writes things like "Thunder is shock, upheaval and the spark of the new; it’s how heaven sets things in motion."

Actually Hilary uses a picture of a lightning bolt to illustrate zhen, and a picture of burning coals (or wood, I'm not sure) for li. The point might be that li is longer-lasting fire. "Clinging." Lightning is too fast to be li, I'd guess.

 

[moss elk]

Trojina and Liselle,

please read the image of 21.

There you will see that Li is referred to as lightning, and Zhen as thunder.
Hilary made a mistake if she called lightning Zhen.
Yes in a grand sense Li and Zhen are all part of one ten thousand things, yet they are distinct in attributes.

I am leaving an apology bucket outside my cave for you to fill. (no bodily fluids please)

For everyone who wants to get needlessly "creative" in interpretation,
remember to get the basics right before riffing.

 

[svenrus]

Good morning,

I can see I've missed a lot of fun. ​

In #71 I'm asked to clarify:

svenrus, these names given by Kerson/ Huang are

​

terribly

off the mark.
Please invite me over to a book burning party! (I'll rob a skinhead and steal his copy of ​

mein

​

kampf

to add to the pyre)


Please clarify, does Kerson/Huang ​

recommend

looking at the first line, or did your eyes just wander there?
(I'm still confused)​

​

And Yes: I was prepared to accept that the I hadn't answered my question until my eyes caught the text of the bottomline - but in the translation of Kerson Huang ie he uses the older layers of the received text, wich caused some confusions - had I used the Wilhelm/Baynes translation I wouldn't have seen this "a house damaged" and I would have concluded that the I haven't answered my question about the fire in the Notre Dame cathedral. AND THIS IS WHY I ASKED THE QUESTION IN THE FIRST PLACE here in this Forum (Romanum).
Short answer because duties are calling for me outdoor

 

[Trojina]

Trojina and Liselle,

please read the image of 21.

There you will see that Li is referred to as lightning, and Zhen as thunder.
Hilary made a mistake if she called lightning Zhen.
Yes in a grand sense Li and Zhen are all part of one ten thousand things, yet they are distinct in attributes.

I am leaving an apology bucket outside my cave for you to fill. (no bodily fluids please)

For everyone who wants to get needlessly "creative" in interpretation,
remember to get the basics right before riffing.

I think we'll need the bucket to jam over your head to stop it growing any bigger.

I think it's pretty daft to make out electricity is absolutely fixed to just one trigram regardless of the circumstance or that which it is channelled through. For a start our nervous systems react via electrical impulses, that is how we register the shock !

Yes it's an inadequate approach, in interpretation, to make out all electricity, no matter what it is channelled through or what the circumstance is, is Li. Electricity is in many things, including our own bodies and what makes our own bodies react to fear. I think your view is way too narrow.


Not that I would go for interpreting this cast as what actually happened with the fire, nor that I would interpret 17 as a cable underwater, but your tone is of one who absolutely knows for sure and frankly you don't.

As Liselle said

Thunder and lightning are part of the same phenomenon, but I agree they're not the same thing. Electricity is in the lightning, not in the thunder.

But, when someone is talking about a live electrical wire that may have caused sparks to start a fire, I think I can see a thunder-like quality in that. Hilary writes things like "Thunder is shock, upheaval and the spark of the new; it’s how heaven sets things in motion."

So, if you read that you might appreciate that in trigram or hexagram interpretation circumstances do play a role.


So, no apology is forthcoming but you may need medical help in removing the bucket.

 

[Liselle]

Moss, I see your point about 21. 55's Image says the same thing (zhen over li: "Thunder and lightning culminate as one: Abundance.").

Hm. I hadn't ever noticed that. I'll give you half an apology.

As Trojina says, though, circumstances play a role. Trigram associations change a lot depending on their placement and interaction with other trigrams. They're called all sorts of things in Image texts.

For instance, hexagram 3, kan over zhen, water over thunder. The Image calls kan "clouds," which isn't how we normally think of kan.

Also, the I Ching is trying to be symbolic and metaphorical, not strictly scientific.

That thunder and lightning always happen together is backed up by NOAA (National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration):

Is it possible to have thunder without lightning?

No, it is not possible to have thunder without lightning. Thunder is a direct result of lightning. However, it IS possible that you might see lightning and not hear the thunder because it was too far away.

(The time separation is an interesting point. Ranges from "simultaneous" to "don't hear the thunder at all." We use it to estimate how far away a storm is. Maybe they made use of it in hexagrams? E.g. 55 is a "peak moment" because "Thunder and lightning culminate as one" (Image text)?)

I don't know what Sven's reading might be saying about electrical sparks, if anything. Didn't this whole argument start over that premise? We don't know. Just because zhen can mean "electrical spark" doesn't mean the reading says an electrical spark caused the fire.

 

[moss elk]

Hm. I hadn't ever noticed that. I'll give you half an apology.

Thank you, I wholly accept your gracious half apology.

I think we'll need the bucket to jam over your head to stop it growing any bigger.

I'm just interested in the facts Ma'am.
Yi's text says it, I didn't make it up.
Go beat up on Yi.

 

[Trojina]

I wouldn't call trigram associations in terms of the burning down of the Notre dame facts. If you insist so despite the perfectly good arguments presented here so far then so you have a rather loose idea of what facts are.

 

[Trojina]

Who knew it is written somewhere as an unassailable fact that electric cables are Li...I expect it is in the Shuogua is it ?