The Takashima Ekidan

[marcelomac]

(I have moved this thread to this location, It's looks to me more convenient)


Hi,

I've been studying a bit this book and I've found a problem that I don't know if someone can give me any insight.

In its page nº 1 says something about three classes of styles of divination; orthodox, median and abridged and focus in this last one. The problem comes when I follow the steps to get, not the main hexagram but the change in the elements (changing lines). Doing as the text says in my case is always 1 or 7. I think that or I'm doing something wrong or the system is not properly explained in the text.

It might be in this foro there is someone that uses this system, knows anything about it or knows where I can get some further information about it.

Thanks in advance,
:bows:

 

[pocossin]

The problem comes when I follow the steps to get, not the main hexagram but the change in the elements (changing lines). Doing as the text says in my case is always 1 or 7. I think that or I'm doing something wrong or the system is not properly explained in the text.

Yes, the description of a casting in The Takashima Ekidan is unclear. Here are the steps I believe were intended:

1. Remove 50 sticks from the holder and place one stick back into the holder.

2. Divide the sticks into two piles and place them on the table.

3. Remove one stick from the right hand pile and place it between the first two fingers of the left hand.

4. Count out the right hand pile by groups of 8. The remainder will be 0 through 7. Adding the stick between the fingers gives 1 through 8. This is the number of the lower trigram.

5. Gather the 49 sticks, divide into two piles, but this time place one stick from the left hand pile between the fingers.

6. Count out the left hand pile by groups of 8. The remainder will be 0 through 7. Adding the stick between the fingers gives 1 through 8. This is the number of the upper trigram.

7. Gather the 49 sticks and divide into two piles. Using the right hand pile, remove one stick for the fingers and count out the right hand pile by groups of 6. The remainder will be 0 through 5. Adding the stick between the fingers gives 1 through 6. This is the number of the moving line.

Do you know how to go from a number to a trigram?

 

[marcelomac]

Hi Pocossin,

Thanks very much for your replay. It will be a pleasure to send you the match.

If one remains, you have Ken (Chien)
two Da (Tui)
three Ri (Li)
four Shin (Chen)
five Son (Sun)
six Kan (Kan)
seven Gon (Ken)
eight or naught Kon (kun)

And the changed lines one is the first element (stating from the bottom), two the second element, three sticks the third element and so on..

Thanks again, the point was that using the right pile too in order to get the upper trigram and later the changing line, could be my poor english.

Marcelo

 

[marcelomac]

Hi Pocossin,

Just only one question. Till point 4º is the same as I have in the text but I have a doubt about your post in point nº 5 that says:

<<5. Gather the 49 sticks, divide into two piles, but this time place one stick from the left hand pile between the fingers>>

In the text says:

<<The trigram corresponding to the present remainder is called the "inner Complement", and is to be placed at the bottom of the diagram. The abovestated process is now to be repeated, and the trigram corresponding to the second remainder is called the "Outer Complement", and is to be placed at the top of the diagram>>

What do you think about it? could be repeat the process but instead pleacing the one of the left pile, one of the right one as before?

Thanks again.
:bows:

 

[marcelomac]

Upss,

I have found another doubt in the point nº 7:

<<7. Gather the 49 sticks and divide into two piles. Using the right hand pile, remove one stick for the fingers and count out the right hand pile by groups of 6. The remainder will be 0 through 5. Adding the stick between the fingers gives 1 through 6. This is the number of the moving line.>>

and in text:

<<The trigram corresponding to the present remainder is called the "inner Complement," and is to be placed at the bottom of the diagram. The abovestated process is now to be repeated, and the trigram corresponding to the second remainder is called the "Outer Complement," and is to be placed at the top of the diagram. Now you are in possession of a complete diagram of six elements. For instance, let the first remainder be one and the second five, then "ken" comes below an "Son" above, the diagram of "Sho-chiku"being the result.>> <<..>>

<<The destined diagram is now before you; the only thing to be done left is to observe the change in the "elements." The method of dealing out the sticks is the same as before, except the mode of counting them. Here each circle consists of six sticks, so that three times two by two are to be counted per cycle. The remainder thus obtained expresses the element to be chosen. Suppose that your remainder is one, and you have then obtained the first element of the diagram; if two, the second element; etc. The order of the elements is numbered from below, that is to say, the bottom element is the first, and the top one the sixth. Now then the destination, or a particular element of a particular diagram has been obtained.>>

What do you think about it?

Thanks for reading,
:bows:

 

[pocossin]

Paraphrase: The hexagram is now before you; the only thing left to be done is to find the changing line. The method of laying out the sticks is the same as before, except the mode of counting them differs. Here each cycle consists of six sticks, so that three sticks are to be counted twice per cycle. The remainder thus obtained gives the line to be chosen. Suppose that your remainder is one, and you have then obtained the first element of the diagram; if two, the second element; etc. The order of the lines is numbered from below, that is to say, the bottom line is the first, and the top one the sixth. Now then the destination, or the changing line of a hexagram has been obtained.

I think the results are the same. Counting out by two groups of three is the same as counting out by groups of six, but counting out by two groups of three is more accurate because the number may be seen at a glance.

 

[marcelomac]

Hi pocossin,

Thanks again for your replay, the method explained to get the answer in the book I have, is the same in the three cases; I mean, it uses the same system (steps) to get the bottom diagram, the upper diagram and the line in change but this one the change is in the way of counting the stick that the cycle consists of six sticks.

4. Count out the right hand pile by groups of 8. The remainder will be 0 through 7. Adding the stick between the fingers gives 1 through 8. This is the number of the lower trigram.

5. Gather the 49 sticks, divide into two piles, but this time place one stick from the left hand pile between the fingers.

7. Gather the 49 sticks and divide into two piles. Using the right hand pile, remove one stick for the fingers and count out the right hand pile by groups of 6. The remainder will be 0 through 5. Adding the stick between the fingers gives 1 through 6. This is the number of the moving line.

In the book doesn't establish this recommendation,

<<Fifty sticks make a complete se ….Take out any single stick and let it stand in the stick-holder …. Hold the lower ends of the remaining forty-nine in your left had, and slightly dovetail the upper ends. Apply your fight-hand fingers to the middle of the sticks, the thumb beings nearest to you or from inside, and the other fingers to be applied from outside ….. divide the sticks into any two groups with your right-hand thumb ….. Now, the set of the sticks is in two groups, … Place the right-hand group on the table, and take out one from the group. This one is to be held between the lech and the little-man of the left hand…Count the left-hand group with your right hand: it is to be counted in cycles, each cycle being four times two by two, or eight sticks per cycle. When any number of cycles has been finished, there will remain a number of sticks less than eight, including the one on the little finger. This remainder gives a complement of the destined diagram>>


<<The trigram corresponding to the present remainder is called the "inner Complement," and is to be placed at the bottom of the diagram. The abovestated process is now to be repeated, and the trigram corresponding to the second remainder is called the "Outer Complement," and is to be placed at the top of the diagram. Now you are in possession of a complete diagram of six elements. For instance, let the first remainder be one and the second five, then "ken" comes below an "Son" above, the diagram of "Sho-chiku"being the result.>> <<..>>

<<The destined diagram is now before you; the only thing to be done left is to observe the change in the "elements." The method of dealing out the sticks is the same as before, except the mode of counting them. Here each circle consists of six sticks, so that three times two by two are to be counted per cycle. The remainder thus obtained expresses the element to be chosen. Suppose that your remainder is one, and you have then obtained the first element of the diagram; if two, the second element; etc. The order of the elements is numbered from below, that is to say, the bottom element is the first, and the top one the sixth. Now then the destination, or a particular element of a particular diagram has been obtained.>>

I don't want to be pain with it but in the book uses in the three steps the same method; one stick from the right pile and counting from the left pile 8 or 6 depending of getting trigram or line in change.

Or it might to be the same outcome for both methods, the one you say and the one the book I have says. (i'm going to check)

Any insight will be welcome,

Marcelo :bows:

 

[pocossin]

You are correct. One stick is taken from the right hand pile and the left hand pile is counted out. The first two counting give the lower and upper trigrams. The last counting gives the moving line. I was attempting to describe Master Jou's procedure. Revised version:

1. Remove 50 sticks from the holder and place one stick back into the holder.

2. Divide the sticks into two piles and place them on the table.

3. Remove one stick from the right hand pile and place it between the first two fingers of the left hand.

4. Count out the left hand pile by groups of 8. The remainder will be 0 through 7. Adding the stick between the fingers gives 1 through 8. This is the number of the lower trigram.

5. Gather the 49 sticks, divide into two piles, and place them on the table.

6. Remove one stick from the right hand pile and place it between the first two fingers of the left hand.

7. Count out the left hand pile by groups of 8. The remainder will be 0 through 7. Adding the stick between the fingers gives 1 through 8. This is the number of the upper trigram.

8. Gather the 49 sticks, divide into two piles, and place them on the table.

9. Remove one stick from the right hand pile and place it between the first two fingers of the left hand.

10. Count out the left hand pile by groups of 6. The remainder will be 0 through 5. Adding the stick between the fingers gives 1 through 6. This is the moving line.

 

[marcelomac]

Hi pocossin,

thank you very much for your prompt reply. It does make sense according to the book I have. But as I can see, there are many methods..

Marcelo
:bows:

 

[pocossin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A2N_hnBX8k
a video of the Takashima method

 

[peterg]

one moving line yarrow.

Hi Pocossin,
Thank you for the method. I hadn't thought to use yarrow sticks in that way to get one changing line.
The numbers for the trigrams follow the Early Heaven pattern of trigrams.
Any idea where this method of using the sticks originated ?
pg

 

[pocossin]

Any idea where this method of using the sticks originated ?

No, I don't know where this method originated, but it's stylish simplicity is in keeping with Japanese aesthetics and makes me think it could be a Japanese development. The second video shows the counting rods (the blocks used to represent a hexagram) and how the changing line is indicated by offsetting a block.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nocj6ilrzXA&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
Use of the Counting Rods.

The sticks appear to be dyed bamboo, and somehow the diviner makes them click.

 

[Sparhawk]

Hi Pocossin,
Thank you for the method. I hadn't thought to use yarrow sticks in that way to get one changing line.
The numbers for the trigrams follow the Early Heaven pattern of trigrams.
Any idea where this method of using the sticks originated ?
pg

Hi Peter,

If you are interested in another method that uses yarrow and produces one changing line, check this I wrote a few years ago: A Proposed Alternative Milfoil Divination Method of the Yijing

 

[peterg]

55 method

Based on Whincups account and Luis' paper I think this method of calculating the changing line from the number 55 is worth exploring as an extra tool.
It takes a while to get your head around the somewhat complex rules.
I wouldn't ignore any changing lines , but the line thrown up by this method might sometimes give an extra nuance to the reading.

Looking at Adele Aldridges intriguing cast 64 - 63 regarding I Ching Prescriptions and writers block ( I Ching News ), the cast presented all lines as changing , and Adele instinctively focused on lines 2 and 6.This method would put extra focus on line 3
which highlights the current difficulties and challenges , but is quite positive about completing the project (correlation and wading the river),confirmed by relating hexg 50.


Takashima Ekidan is available in English? Is it any good ?

The current yarrow method dates to the 12th century AD.There is a document from 12th c. China which proves they knew about the pattern of numbers known as Pascals triangle, 'discovered' by Pascal c.16th century.These numbers are very important in the field of probabilities, and even then the Chinese called them the 'old' method.

 

[Sparhawk]

Hi Peter,

Search for "Takashima Ekidan" here or in Biroco (Steve Marshall's) for a link to the Google Books site or my own copy as I believe Europeans might have problems downloading it but I gave Steve a copy of it.

Speaking of statistics, check this out that I scanned recently and uploaded to Scribd: "The Book of Changes and Statistics" I think you'll enjoy reading it.

 

[pocossin]

Takashima Ekidan is available in English? Is it any good ?

http://yitoons.com/pdf/Takashima_Ekidan.pdf
-- the Google pdf of the Takashima Ekidan

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=11287&highlight=Ekidan
-- a Takashima Ekidan thread

 

[Sparhawk]

Thanks Tom! I was too lazy to look for my exact link to the file. The first one is the copy in my site...

 

[pocossin]

Thanks Tom! I was too lazy to look for my exact link to the file. The first one is the copy in my site...

That's why you are so successful, Luis. You get others to do the work for you Thanks for the "The Book of Changes and Statistics" link. I plan to read the appendix on Sun Zi this weekend.

 

[peterg]

'My' computers have problems with big downloads but anyway that statistics link looks very interesting.(I got the first 20 pages , then the computer had a temp nervous breakdown )

Just a bit of fine tuning of my previous post :

64.3 Advises against immediate aggressive action which is in keeping with the gen. theme of temp. slowdown, and the change to hex.50 presents a vessel ; just whats needed to help you across the nuclear river , mataphorically speaking.

Pascals Triangle
Its quite possible that the Chinese discovered this pattern of numbers by studying I Ching casts , which naturally fall into this pattern , eg.
there are 960 pairs of moving lines , 240 all yin , 480 mixed , 240 all yang.
which is a 121 pattern.
From this we can deduce a pattern of 1331 for 3 moving lines , which is the case ,(160 480 480 160 )(all yin, one yang,two yang , all yang )
and so on.
Knowing this pattern makes light work of figuring yijing probabilities.

One thing I find puzzling about the 55 method : why does it follow a sine wave pattern instead of a circular one , i.e. why not go back to line 1 after line 6 ? instead of starting again at line 6 and counting down. In the eg I used the sine wave to arrive at line 3.
I used to follow a circular patt. which might help explain why it seemed to make little sense.

 

[peterg]

55
Using the number 55 to to generate a possible moving line is fairly easy.
Just add the 6789 numbers and subtract from 55.This gives a number from 1 to 19.
Match this with the lines as follows :
Number 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
Line 1 2 3 4 5 6 6 5 4 3 2 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 6
The complex bit is what to do with it.
I prefer just to use it as shading of the original cast.

Pascal
I d'ont know if the 12th century Chinese version of Pascals Triangle had anything to do with the I Ching but once discovered the Chinese would have become aware that the same pattern occurs in the Yi.

The lines doubled are :
( yin + yang ) ^2 which expands to 1 ( yin ^2 ) + 2 ( yin X yang ) + 1 ( yang ^2)

The lines trebled (trigrams) are :
(yin + yang ) ^ 3 = 1( yin ^ 3 ) + 3 (yin ^2 X yang ) + 3 ( yin ^1 X yang ^2) + 1( yang ^3)

( yin + yang ) ^6 expands into the 64 hexagrams.

The moving lines are also spread across the hexagrams in the same structure as Pascals T.

Chaos Game.
Peter Plichta in ' Gods Secret Formula ' ( a book about prime numbers ) describes a chaos game which mimics the random ? behaviour of gas molecules in a closed container.To play the game you need an equilateral triangle with the corners marked 1 2 and 3 , and a 123 random number generator.
Start anywhere inside the triangle and move half way towards whatever number is generated. Then stop and mark the point. After about 1000 plays he claims the game produces a pattern a pattern known as the Sierpinsky Triangle which is Pascals T. with the odd and even numbers shaded light and dark.
A very curious game.

ps
can The Book of Changes and Statistics by Hou Wenxi
be purchased or printed ( I had probs trying to print it ).

 

[russell]

Hello; just f.y.i, Virtual Yarrow Stalks uses the Takashima Ekidan method when you check “one moving line.” Alfred Huang and Tsung Hwa Jou both describe it.

—Russell