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The women according to the I Ching

cal val

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Gene...

Love your post, however, there is research that says exactly the opposite of this statement:

If it works for them fine, if not they go elsewhere....Women will work and strive and sometimes sacrifice their own self respect and dignity to make a relationship work....They tend to give too much of themselves to make something work that is unworkable.

Research I've read says in most cases women will be the first in a relationship to say it's not working and let it go. That was certainly true in the case of my marriage.

Also Gene, yes some women end up as slaves in their relationship, but they don't so much set themselves up...they have the consent, help and urging of their "slave owners"...and those women are the first to end that kind of relationship...and they often have to do it by going to shelters for battered women and children...for protection from the "slave owners" who go after them...or, unfortunately, dead for trying. In a truly healthy relationship, a truly healthy man will validate and promote a woman's self-esteem, not relegate her, through constant subtle humiliation and degradation, to the position of slave for the purpose of controlling her.

Please Gene...for your own sake and your own peace of mind...do not put the onus of responsibility for these horrible relationships on women...the men involved are...at the very least... equally responsible.

Val
 
D

dharma

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Val,
you said: "Without knowing why, I've always felt the line "One should not marry such a maiden" did not fit in the Hex 44 scenario. "One is afraid to marry such a maiden" just might be more honest."

Perhaps it's more fitting to say, "One should not screw with
wink.gif
such a maiden" as in, don't interfer, don't mess with.

And then there's hx26's "The pipe through which water flows" image... a metaphorical vehicle for this force to flow through. Nice.

Hilary,
I didn't mean to imply that this power required manipulation of any kind at all but rather, we should get out of it's way and let it do it's thing, otherwise the ego is left at the helm and interfering with nature (which is what causes unpleasant life experiences to occur, as you said yourself). Also, I don't think we are meant to DO anything with this power other than to surrender to it.

Gene,
you said: "When women willingly sacrifice themselves for the relationship, they unwittingly set themselves up as slaves and such. Doesn't excuse the men. I know, I am not saying that. There is truth and untruth on both sides of the equation. All too often though, what we see in the opposite sex is a mirror image of what we are in a more subconscious way."

I sooo totally agree.

Val,
you said: "In a truly healthy relationship, a truly healthy man will validate and promote a woman's self-esteem, not relegate her, through constant subtle humiliation and degradation, to the position of slave for the purpose of controlling her."

I sooo totally agree.

Dharma
 

joang

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Hi,Val.

As a Taoist, I believe that there cannot be a perfect translation; that is, there cannot be all Yang without a spot of Yin.

As a former Christian, I believe in JC's parable about the wheat and the tares, which expresses the same idea.

Therefore, I try to make it a practice to be on the lookout for untruths or imperfections in whatever translations I read, because I believe there is bound to be at least one in there somewhere.

Namaste,
Joan
 

gene

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Val

If you go back and read my post I said men are not relieved of the responsibility. It is true that women usually end the relationship. That is because they expect more from relationships and have more criteria for what makes it work and what doesn't. The same is true in marriages. Women usually end it, often at the surprise of men who think everything is okay. One point was, and I hesitate to get involved in this, is that these women who are in these kinds of relationships, and I wasn't talking about relationships that are that disfunctional, have done a lot of work before they ever married these men, to try to make things work, rather than just giving up on the relationship before it became a marriage. Too often women think of men, oh, he will change. He won't change. If he is that way he is that way. I think men understand that, so they just move on, not of course, once the relationship has been finalized, but before. It only gets finalized if they think it is right, not if they think she will change. Lots could be said on either side, I know very well women have valid points, in fact I emphazise with them. I am far more inclined and interested in making friends with women than with men. But as much as women feel about being hurt and treated unfairly, men do too.

Gene
 

cal val

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Gene...

Additionally, women who get involved in these relationships were more likely than not disempowered as children by the same kind of man who continues to disempower them as adults.

I learned, when I was going through my own volcanic reaction to an especially painful attempt by one man to disempower me, that approximately 61% of women who are sexually harassed in the workplace were molested/raped as children. Of course, that figure is probably a lot higher because of the great number of women who never come forward as children or adults about it.

Also, I know that men's and women's brains as well as musculature, etc. etc. etc. are different. I wasn't the one who wanted men to show their emotions more. It was Mirian. I accept men just as they are. I don't want to change men. Remember? I read John Grey's book. Viva la difference.

Gene, please correct me if I'm wrong...but I'm hearing in your post that you believe you're stating a perspective that is unversal truth. I hope I'm hearing you wrong because it's not a unversal truth. There are men out there who think and feel toward women quite differently than you do...or Martin does...or Chris does...not all men are hardwired the same. The difference in the hardwiring in different men is as vastly different as the hardwiring between men and women, and the same is true for women. I've met many men considerably more sensitive and less fearful of women than your post intimates all men to be. Your perspective, in fact, is one that I have not encountered all that frequently in my own experiences.

And Gene, again, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm perceiving resentment that the media encourages men to protect women in their "plots". You want equal time? But men are more able physically to protect themselves than women are. Personally, I see nothing wrong with it and encourage it. If a man who's thinking of going out and raping a woman sees that on television as he's putting on his coat and hat, he just might change his mind and settle in for the night instead.

If my perception that you feel resentment is wrong...I'm sorry. I'm soooo not perfect, and the written medium is so not perfect for conveying true feelings. If my perception is right on, then here's a tight hug across the internet from me to you and high hopes that you are able to go deep enough within yourself to find the root of your resentment. I know you're searching. I hope you find everything you want in life. You're a very special man.

Cheerio the noo,

Val

PS...Just read your last post. And yes I saw you did add that men are responsible as well...but not until you established that women set themselves. The law of primacy is at work here, and the law of primacy is a very powerful tool. I know, I've used it many times over the years...be the first to get an interview for a job...state the assertion you want to 'stick' first, etc. -- http://www.ciadvertising.org/student_account/spring_01/adv382j/slmcdonald/prime.htm.
 

chrislofting

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Hi all,

some general abstracts/comments/links on current issues re the dichotomy of male/female:
==============================================
(original from evolutionary-pychology list)

The opposite sexes

August 16, 2003

Women empathise, men systemise. So the basic brain function goes. It's only a
social problem in extreme cases, though especially for analytical men who lean
towards autism, writes Simon Baron-Cohen.

The subject of essential sex differences in the mind is clearly very delicate.
I could tiptoe around it, but my guess is that readers would like the theory
stated plainly. So here it is: the female brain is predominantly hard-wired for
empathy. The male brain is predominantly hard-wired for understanding and
building systems.

Some readers will be alarmed. Will this theory provide grist for those
reactionaries who might wish to defend existing inequalities in opportunities
for men and women? Equally, I can imagine that some readers may be willing to
go halfway down the track with me, willing to explore the once-taboo idea that
there are sex differences in the mind.

Yet, as we discover the ultimate causes of such sex differences, these readers
may find things they would prefer not to see. First, let me expand on the two
central claims of the theory empathising (the female brain) and systemising
(the male brain).

Empathising is the drive to identify another person's emotions and thoughts,
and to respond to them with an appropriate emotion. Imagine if you could
recognise that Jane is in pain but this left you cold, or detached, or happy.
That would not be empathising. Now imagine you could not only see Jane's pain,
but you also automatically felt concern. That would be empathising. Empathy
arises out of a natural desire to care about others. There is evidence that the
average female spontaneously empathises to a greater degree than the average
male.

Full text
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/08/15/1060936055095.html

(original from evolutionary-pychology list):
> reviews
> Book
>
> The Essential Difference: Men, Women and the Extreme Male Brain
> Simon Baron-Cohen
> Allen Lane, £16.99, pp 263 ISBN 0 713 99671 4
>
> Men and women have different brains. This notion has been the subject of
> increasing scientific analysis, media interest, and pulp
> psychology of the "men
> are from..." variety. Now, Simon Baron-Cohen (professor of psychology at
> Cambridge University) has drawn on 20 years of clinical and
> academic experience
> and attempted to summarise the research on this subject-an impressive
> proportion of which is his own-and its implications for the future.
>
> Baron-Cohen argues that there are three kinds of normal human brain:
> "empathising" (type E), "systemising" (type S), and "balanced"
> (type B, which
> is a meld of types E and S). With a reader friendly style and
> using fascinating
> data, he states his central claim that, on average, men have a
> type S brain,
> while the female brain is predominantly type E. There are
> exceptions, in that
> some men may have a type E brain and some women a type S brain.
> He goes on to
> consider the current (and evolutionary) strengths and weaknesses
> of these three
> types of brain.
>


My IDM Perspective:

There is a realm pre 'male/female' that determines the male/female biases, it is rooted in the basic dynamics of differentiations/integrations, dynamics that mix to derive a rich set of properties reflected in the manner in which we as a species, and other neuron-dependent species for that matter, categorise - http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/idm001.html

The above 'trichotomy' perspective is, IMHO, a little naive in that there are more than 'three types of brain' - more so one generic type, focused on differentiations/integrations, and a rich set of derived types resulting from the recursion of the differentiate/integrate dichotomy with some hormones thrown in to add 'flavour'.

Out of this recursion comes such mental states as the competitive individual (male or female) and the cooperative individual (male or female). CONTEXT will more often associate male will competitive, female with cooperative, BUT, since the method of derivation is recursive so the whole is encoded in all parts such that WITHIN the competitive male will be (a) very competitive males (b) very cooperative males. SAME patterns for the female.

The GENERIC nature of gender shows that in some neuron-dependent lifeforms the 'male' is more 'female' from OUR perspectives etc etc. The GENERIC brain is differentiating/integrating, focused on issues of precise identification/re-identification. Firmware, hormones, can then refine things in the context of gender such that a more integrating sense is more female, more into symmetry, resonance, etc and so 'empathic'. Systemising reflects differentiations, clear 'this from that' distinctions that act, in their differentiations, to 'cut' empathic process - sympathy at best ;-)

We can in fact 'fold back' the male/female distinction into the form of the androgyne - and in modern times there are the issues of female minds in male bodies etc etc etc

Of note re the, to me, 'lite' categories in "The Essential Difference: Men, Women and the Extreme Male Brain"

(A) Competitive apes - 'everyday' chimps - overly patriarchic - anger dominates as control/exchange
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/ref=dp_sr_00/104-7812486-3028726)

(B) Cooperatives apes - bonobos - overly matriarchic - sex dominates as control/exchange
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0520205359/104-7812486-3028726?vi=glance)


(A) is more 'systemising' (B) more 'empathising' - at the level of a whole species not limited to 'male/female'.

To uncover 'essential differences' one needs to go a little deeper than male/female and move into the realm of differentiations/integrations and the influence of context in long term developments. The development of information processing is rooted in the properties of the neuron and I dont see 'gendered' neurons but I do see gender emerging FROM the neuron, thus the discreteness of the axon reflects differentiations and the connectiveness of the dendrites reflect integrations. FROM this level there seems to have emerged biases where at the hemisphere level we still find these distinctions (left is more differentiating, single context, particular; right is more integrating, multi-context, general) but also we find biases in gender expressions that can be modified using hormones.

The more differentiating focus is on REPLACEMENT of something with something considered BETTER. The more cooperative focus is is also focused on replacement but in the form of copies of oneself rather than replacement of something, the erradication of something through immediate action. Thus replacement is long term, evolutionary rather than revolutionary.

We can derive understanding of the development of lifeforms, of mental states, of gender issues etc from analysis of the properties and methods of 'differentiate/integrate' and so the properties and methods of the neuron. Those properties and methods are the universals out of which all neuron-dependent species have emerged, and with that has come gender issues but also reflections of these gender issues at the level of whole collective that includes males/females but are not 'male' nore 'female' other than as metaphors, metaphors used to describe the more fundamental natures of differentiation/integration.

Chris.
http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting
 

cal val

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Hi Hilary...

You said:

Yi says there's no use in grasping the woman (because, says the commentary, you can't live with her for long - I take that to mean that new wine into old jars is not a long-term prospect). But s/he remains delightfully silent on the question of what we are supposed to do with this force.

Interesting thought to explore.

I wonder if the Yi isn't telling us that our current forward movement might not make marriage and family a bit difficult for all to handle...hmmmm.

Welcome back!

Val
 

gene

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Hi all

I think I will drop it here unless and until I can find a way to tie it back to hexagram 44. There is no resentment in my message, that is not to say I have no or have not had resentment. I think that is pretty common for both men and women, and as long as it is not played out...A few years ago a psychologist wrote two books called "Why men are the way they are." and "The myth of male power." But then he kind of disappeared from the scene because he didn't always say what women wanted to hear, and sponsors were dropping him. He lost a lot of contracts for talks. It is sad when honest discussion is suppressed because someone is afraid of the message. But I do recommend, if any of you can get the book, read it. Outside of relating it to a hexagram though, I will drop the subject now. Besides, Tampa Bay is playing the Atlanta Falcons right now. It just happens to be half time right now.

Gene
 

cal val

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Chris...

Love your research on the male/female brain question. Thank you. And...

I'd be curious to know what your take is on what the Yi is saying about woman's position in the world today with 44.5 to 50.

Love and empathy...*grin*,

Val
 

chrislofting

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Hi Val,

You wrote:
> Chris...
>
> Love your research on the male/female brain question. Thank
> you. And...
>
> I'd be curious to know what your take is on what the Yi is
> saying about woman's position in the world today with 44.5
> to 50.
>

My ICPlus line comment for 44.5 is:

"Using baskets to hold melons [holding on to the cosmos using man made tools/materials]. Cherishing the [their] form (composure). Things fall, beginning from heaven." [Attempts to join (to hold) cosmos and man as one (family).]"

Since line 5 is high up on 44 so the focus of 44 on being persuasive is here strong enough to focus upon the 'union' of the cosmos and our species all done from species' position.

Interpreting the 'change' as an exaggeration, such that the generic properties of 50 are expressed through 44 would 'fit' the above. (melons - Kua "general term for melon, squash, cucumber; symbol of Heaven[and]Earth, the cosmos") However we also have the fact that 50 reflects refinement through containing something and 'cooking' it - IOW dont take the food raw. 50 is made up from:

"The generic properties of hexagram 50 reflect the mixing of the generic properties of hexagram 32 with the generic properties of hexagram 34.
The combination of commitment (32) with a focus on invigoration, inspiration (34), is reflected in the focus on 'cooking', of transformation expressed in hexagram 50."

44 is:

"The generic properties of hexagram 44 reflect the mixing of the generic properties of hexagram 28 with the generic properties of hexagram 43.
A combination of excess, of going beyond what is required, (28), with a focus on 'seeding', on 'spreading the word' (43) is reflected in the focus on persuation/seduction in hexagram 44. "

Thus 44.5 would reflect the expression of 44, persuading/seducing with a warning about exaggeration reflected through 50, as in too much 'cooking' of the persuasion, too heated, too overdone, can lead you away from the intent of 44.

If we apply this generic data to a particular context, as in the role of women in the world today, the focus on being persuasive/seductive of 44 is distorted by the context being overdone.

44 pairs with 28 and as such "This pairing reflects 'going beyond' the norm, be it in aiding someone/something (the excess of 28, to go the extra distance) or in the act of persuation/seduction of another (44)."

The development of consciousness allows for the 'mixing' of 'traditional' male and female mental states and that can be interpreted as going 'beyond' the traditional. In the binary sequence, hexagram 44 is the last hexagram of the yin-based hexagrams and as such is the most yang of yin and as such an expression of 'excess' when compared to 'pure' yin that is more balancing, more integrating than differentiating.

The binary sequence of the I Ching reflects the patterns of 'raw' differentiate/integrate and as such a template, a mould, on to which we pour our 'basic' dichotomy to give us details.

Thus the dichotomy 'male/female' converts to the parts-list of 64 hexagrams describing a scale of values, listing the harmonics of the whole that is 'male/female'. This can give you not only a map of 'male VS female' - the differences in gender, but also 'male & female' as in the range of mental states in any individual regardless of gender.

The 'trick' is to map the correct elements of the dichotomy to that basic form of differentiating/integrating (yang/yin). Once done, all else follows (and so, as said somewhere in the commentaries, the hardest line to determine is the first one ;-))

ALL of the hexagrams with Wind as base deal with cultivation and so becoming influencial and so a sense of development over time to achieve the 'goal'. In this context of Wind hexagrams, 44 is the exaggeration of 46, the focus on 'increasing entanglement' - as given in the Hexagram Notes material:

"At the LOCAL level we are dealing with an octet of hexagrams with the WIND trigram as base. In this sequence hexagram 44, the focus upon persuading and seducing, 'opposes' hexagram 46, becoming willingly more entangled. More so, the exaggerated sense of persuation/seduction (44) is reflected in a more balanced format through a focus in increased entanglement (46)."

The FULL range of the 'female' is all yin-based hexagrams, the full range of consciousness is all 64 hexagrams but with context 'biasing' things (and that can include physiological, sociological, and psychological influences).


Chris.
 

malka

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Wow, this is quite a thread. I have some random thoughts, resources and comments to offer:

I believe many of us have a hard time hard time hearing new information when it doesn't totally fit with the dominate thoughts/beliefs within ourselves, or within society. It's not just men, or women. It's all of us.

Here's a great big example of this: Sigmund Freud...

For years, Freud sat and listened to women talk. The women would tell their stories, and Freud listened. The women started to feel better about themselves and their lives. Their experiences of anxiety and emotional pain were alleviated, and they developed greater esteem and confidence. This listening became known as the "talking cure" and was the seed of modern day psychotherapy.

But, there is more...

The majority of the stories Freud heard from women revolved around a similar theme, and Freud termed this theme "pre-mature sexual experience." Otherwise described as sex occurring before the appropriate developmental age, or outside of the appropriate context/situation, today we call this INCEST, RAPE, and MOLESTATION.

These stories were such a dominant feature of the stories told by the women, that Freud found himself confused and unable to integrate what he was learning. If these stories were all true, then the unthinkable was also true: there was an epidemic of extreme magnitude of sexual abuse towards infants, girls and women in our world. It turns out that Freud couldn't or wouldn't hear this truth. And so Freud chose to label these stories as "fantasies," and he abandoned his "listening" work with women.

Today we know that what Freud uncovered was indeed true - there is an epidemic of magnitude in our world. It is believed that 2/3 of all women have experienced some type of sexual abuse. And 1/3 of all women have been raped. (Read "Trauma and Recovery" by Harvard professor Judith Herman for much more about this, and about all types of trauma and recovery in the human experience.)

Think about how big this really is -- with such numbers, the women and girls who have experienced awful abuse aren't just a few living in a shelter somewhere. They are your mothers, sisters, aunts, grandmothers, girlfriends, wives, and friends. They are you and me.

Again, think about how big this really is -- the men committing this abuse aren't just the occasional psychotic. They are fathers, brothers, uncles, boyfriends, husbands, grandfathers and neighbors. It's people you know. It may even be you.

A truly equal society cannot and does not exist with such abuse of trust, safety and basic human rights. This gender stuff isn't really about who takes out the trash. The true struggle for equality runs much, much deeper, in places we still don't openly discuss.

We do live in a patriarchal society. Men do set the tone for the majority of what is considered "normal" in our world, although there are little shifts happening. As the above statistics illustrate, our society has a value of it being "normal" to inappropriately touch infants, girls and women. To objectify women and sexuality just happens. The verbal rhetoric is strongly against all this. Yet it continues to happen every single day. Regular men are committing this abuse towards regular women and girls. Every day.

I empathize with the men who feel their power is being "taken away" as women are beginning, slowly, to recognize and exercise more of their own power. And I feel sad. This shift towards equality doesn't need to be about winning or loosing, or who has more power or who doesn't. There is, I believe, an opportunity for each of us to enjoy taking up an equal amount of space in the world. Yet for this equality to occur, it does mean some people will begin to take up a little more space while others begin to take up a little less space. It is natural for some of those currently in a position of power to feel threatened and uncomfortable.

Gene, I do not wish to deny nor minimize your experience in any way. However, I do invite you to view it from a much wider context, one that includes what I've written above.

Chris, thank you for the article re-print. I agree that there are differences in the way men and women tend to approach their view of the world. This doesn't mean these differences are unwavering, e.g. men can and do empathize.

I am reminded about some other interesting work in the study of knowing (which I tend to believe Yi is ultimately about!) known as the field of Epistemology. In the ground-breaking study of how women "know," Belenky et al in their book "Women's Ways of Knowing" learned that the types of knowing were broader than previously understood by the men who has dominated this field of study before them. Beyond Objective Knowing (to know from an outside source) and Subjective Knowing (to know from within) there is also Connected Knowing, which is to know from the "empathetic connection with another's experience." Developmentally, we all start out as objective knowers. Our parents tell us who we are, etc. Then we become predominately subjective knowers, as we gain a greater sense of self. Only then, do we move into the possibility of being Connected Knowers (not everyone does this) as we learn through the empathetic connection with other people's stories and experiences.

Men can be, and are, connected knowers also. It's not exclusive to women. But it isn't as common or as likely for men to learn in this way (back to the article Chris shared with us above.) And this is why it wasn't until the 1980s that we even knew about connected knowing - after women started researching women. The men who previously dominated in this field of study hadn't picked up on the phenomena (they were only studying men) though they likely saw it without recognizing it.

I believe Yi is an opportunity to be a connected knower. Yi guides me to connect with a story, a metaphor, a scenario, and to learn about and know my own experience through the empathetic connection with Yi's stories. And of course, we also do this with each other here on the forum. We share. We connect. We "know" through making an empathetic connection.

I am not bothered my the language of some Yi translations, as I accept them as coming out of the context of their time. I can still learn from them. I consider the challenge to be able to go the heart of the scenario, the root of what Yi is saying, the part that I believe transcends the egos and language of any particular individual or society, and to reveal the heart of truth.

Blessings,
Malka
 

davidl

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Just a quick comment re: the Yi and male/female.
When a question is asked of the Yi, that question may include an inherent context of male/ female, hence the Yi gives us an answer that reflects the context of the question. Males asking about females, females asking about males. Of course these questions must be covered to be of value in our day to day lives. If though the question is asked without the context of male/female then the appropriate answer will be more universal.
So line 5 of 44 could be 'beware of the woman with the big boobies' or something relating to mans deeper relationship to the cosmos.
Put simply the answer to the question is what the Yi provides. These answers will strike a cord when one is not confused about what the real question is. So are you interested in sleeping with the woman with the big boobies or are you asking about your relationship to the cosmos.

As far as the 3 or so types of brains, there are 2 kinds of people , those that believe that and those that don't.
 

martin

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Aha, so that is what line 5 of 44 means.
"Beware of the cosmos with the big boobies"
biggrin.gif
 

malka

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Or...

"Be aware of the powerful feminine energy."

Perhaps she has been "hidden" in our culture recently, but make no mistake, she lives. And her capacity for extraordinary creativity may be beyond comprehension for those not yet prepared to receive her...

May we all be blessed with the readiness to accept the wonder and awe of the divine feminine.

Malka
 

learner

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Dear all,

I was travelling during the weekend and only right now I realize how extraordinarily interesting this thread ended up.
I am sorry for the delayed comment but I cannot help adding ideas here about some aspects of the discussion. But I will try to make them short!

When I said that men do not have the same ability to vent their feelings as women
I was just expressing a personal viewpoint based on my experience as a ?member of the female community?. *grin *. Therefore, my words were neither ?the truth? nor
?a big lie?.
However, I did not mean that men are less capable because of that. Rather being a kind of formal assessment, my comment was more like a lament, which men should listen to.

Gene, I strongly disagree when you say that ?women can rage and no one will fault her for it.? My friend, women do not get away with that so easily. Besides, there is no evidence whatsoever that the men are at a disadvantage in society nowadays.
But I did like very much when you clearly pointed out in your post the subtleties of the situation ?the weaknesses and strengths of both men and women.

Hi Val, I think I am a little bit more optimistic than you are. Some changes took place in the last one or two decades. I think women are really moving forward and not just acting accordingly. But of course a better understanding between men and women is still a long way off.

Dear Hilary,
Thank you for helping to solve the puzzle about fifth moving line.

All the best,
Mirian
 

learner

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Hi Martin, your wrote:

?OK, what is man's position in the world today?
(I think I asked in fact: what should it be?)

The Yi says 25 (line 1) to 12.?


Well, I suppose there is more than one approach to the meaning.

Considering as a background the male/female relationship, I would say that the first moving line suggests that men should be sincere, acting in accordance with their inmost heart. Disharmony would pose a threat otherwise. I think that being wholehearted is strongly recommended.

?Thunder heaven thunder rolls:
All things attain the natural state of innocence.
Thus the kings of old,
Rich in virtue, and in harmony with the time,
Fostered and nourished all beings.?

Considering as international issues ?politics or social rules and regulations:

It seems that men should go back to innocence in order to:

- bridge the gap between the rich and the poor
- avoid racial divisions leading to conflicts
- ban weapons of mass destruction and promote peace

Just some thoughts,
Mirian
 

learner

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Hello all,

Just to explore a different angle.
If we decide to compare the two interpretations: What are (or should be) the women?s and the men?s position in the world nowadays?

Hex 44 fifth moving line / Hex 25 first moving line.

It might be something like that: women are still developing themselves and should avoid the abuse of sexual power, whereas men should listen to their heart and act sincerely.

I am not sure if it does make sense!


All the best,
Mirian
 

cal val

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Mirian...

Hi! I think there may be a misunderstanding here because of the language differences. "Acting accordingly" does not mean play acting. It means taking action accordingly...which means to say that women, realizing their subordinate position was one into which they'd allowed themselves to be pushed, are taking action to move forward out of the subordinate position...to positions where they can use strengths other than their sexual power.

It was hard work by women that has affected these changes...and I would say I'm even more optimistic than you, in that, although there have been suffrage movements of one sort or size or another through the ages, I believe the movement really started rolling in 1848 at the Seneca Falls Convention...over 150 years ago. It took Susan B. Anthony and her growing army of women 50 more years of hard work, but they finally got the vote for women in the 19th Amendment passed in 1920.

And it was in the 1920s that writers and other notable women like Simone de Beauvoir began to raise their voices together...loudly...for more reform.

Actually, Mirian, women really started storming into the executive offices of the workplace in the 70s. I was there, and I was bewildered...because I was an artist, and for most of the 70s I thought that wasn't enough...and I was confused...and tried to be something I wasn't...to keep up with my peers.

It wasn't until 1978 that I realized the movement didn't mean I had to be in management...it meant I can be who I am, and that's when I picked up pencil and paper, brush and canvas again.

Cheerio the noo,

Val
 

cal val

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Actually I should say the army of women worked for over 70 more years. Susan Anthony and Elizabeth Stanton didn't live to see the passage of the 19th Amendment...and the 19th Amendment is what women needed to affect changes...the VOTE!

I'm not kidding myself either here...there is still a lot more work to be done...fortunately men are helping women achieve their rights today. As long as it's still legal to stone women to death in Africa, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc...we've still got to keep our voices raised.

Cheerio the noo,

Val
 

martin

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Hi Mirian,

It's interesting to compare 44 and 25.
In both hexagrams the upper trigram is heaven, but in 44 the lower trigram is the oldest daughter, while in 25 it is the oldest son.
So the male - female dichotomy is nicely reflected in the answers of the I Ching!
happy.gif


Heaven above in 44 and in 25, perhaps this means that women and men come from heaven and bring the heavenly truth down (realize it on earth) in their own way.
Like the archetypal Woman (Eve) and the archetypal Man (Adam) incarnating in and as each individual woman and man.
There are of course many other possible meanings. Depends on the eyes of the beholder ..
Apart from that there is a man (Animus) in every woman and a woman (Anima) in every man.
Carl Jung believed that we seek - and project - our Anima/Animus in our lovers.

All the best,
Martin
 

martin

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About Freud and Jung, I find them both fascinating. Freud's books read like detective novels. He has even earned a literary price (Goethe price IIRC) for his work.
Jung has a different style, he is less systematic and allows himself much more "unscientific" freedom.
The man has led an amazingly rich and creative life, experimenting with relationships (with the consent of his wife Emma, although she had perhaps not much choice. Some have criticized Jung for his behavior), building a world of his own in Bollingen, and so on.
If I had to choose between these two I would prefer Jung as a guide in the inner worlds.

Another fascinating guide is Fritz Perls (Gestalt therapy). If you feel that you are lost in Jung's inner worlds he can help you to find your way back to the surface, the 'contact zone' as he called it.
 

martin

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By the way ....

The trigram heaven may of course also denote the "earthly" father, so in 44 we have the father and his oldest daughter and in 25 the father and his oldest son.
I've heard many complaints, from women as well as from men, about their relationships with their fathers.
Often he was experienced as unreceptive, authoritarian, and so on.
The unresolved issues may carry over into adult life.
Men, still fighting with their fathers (unconsciously wanting to kill them, says Freud) get stuck in overly competitive behavior.
And women get stuck in relationships with unreceptive men.
"Why do you stay with this guy?"
"You don't know him, I know what's in his heart. One day I will reach him."

Evidently there is a lot to heal there, in many cases, even if there was no abuse.
 

learner

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Hi Val,

Yes, I missed the point there due to language differences, as you say. Thanks for clearing things up!
You know, communication is always a challenge, even when people speak the same language as, for example, men and women. Well, perhaps they don?t, actually. *grin*

By the way, I used to be an executive myself and worked for fifteen years for the largest media company in Brazil. Actually, I have just given up deciding to start from scratch. That?s what I am doing right away, going to Oxford in five days to study! That?s why I think that I know how you feel when you say: ?I can be who I am?.

With the benefit of hindsight I can understand now that I was focused on efficiency and success, but had lost the ability to listen to my inner voice and my real essence as a woman almost vanished.
But I hope that I am back on track!

Glad to know that you are also back to pencil and paper, brush and canvas again!

All the best,
Mirian
 

learner

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Hi Val,

Just adding another thought.

There is still too much inequality in the world. I mean, not just thinking about differences between women and men, but also social and economic. Well, there is still a lot to be done, for sure....

Mirian
 

learner

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Hi Martin,

It sounds perfect to me the archetypal idea in the comparison between Hex 44 and Hex 25.
I loved the picture of male - female dichotomy that you drew from the I Ching?s answers.

By the way, I have been thinking about buying a Jung's book in order to understand the Anima/Animus background in every relationship between a man and a woman. Perhaps, I will do that in Oxford, where I am going to be pretty soon.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated!

All the best,
Mirian
 

martin

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Hi Mirian,

The autobiographical 'Memories, Dreams & Reflections' (based on interviews with Aniela Jaffé) is a very good introduction to Jung's world.
I don't remember a book by Jung that deals specifically with animus/anima. Comments on that are probably scattered throughout his works.
I guess that Aniela Jaffé has a compilation on the subject, so look for her name if you go to the bookstore (or the library).
happy.gif


I know that Emma Jung (Jung's wife) also has written about anima/animus.
Moment please .... (google google
biggrin.gif
)
Ah, there is a book:

Title: Animus and Anima
by Emma Jung, Hildegard Nagel, Cary F. Baynes
ISBN: 0882143018
Publisher: Spring Audio & Journal

Another name is von Franz, moment please ...

Title: Animus and Anima in Fairy Tales (Studies in Jungian Psychology by Jungian Analysts, 100)
by Marie-Luise Von Franz, Daryl Sharp, Marie-Louise Von Franz
ISBN: 189457401X
Publisher: Inner City Books

Have fun!

I hope you like it in Oxford.
And that you also have internet there, so that you can stay in touch with us.

Be blessed,

Martin
 

chrislofting

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Martin, et al,

To get it from the horse's mouth but in an abridged form try:

V.S. de Laszlo(Ed.) (1990)"The Basic Writings of C.G.Jung" Princeton University Press. (560+ pages).

nice collection of material from his collected works volumes (also published by PUP) and includes a section on Anima/Animus, covering pages 162-185 (23 pages worth).

Editor's intro para:

"This volume is intended to present as fully as possible some of the most important areas of Jung's conception of the nature and function of the human psyche. It is intended as a basic reader for those who wish to acquaint themselves with the original structure of his conception"

Chris.
 

learner

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Hello Martin and Chris,

Thank you so much for your suggestions.
I am already writing the books? titles (to look for them in UK).

And, just before you ask, yes the I Ching will also be in my luggage!

We are going to stay in touch?.

All the best,
Mirian
 

gene

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Well, nice analogy between 44 and 25. Along those same lines, the upper nuclear trigram in 25 is wind, or wood, which corresponds to the oldest daughter. Here the lower trigram is chen, the eldest son, the lower nuclear is ken, the yougest son, the upper nuclear is sun, the eldest daughter, and the upper trigram is chien, the father. The meaning of the hexagram as a whole is, "Without falsehood." The counsel here I think is for men to become more honest with their significant others. We need to learn to deal with the opposite sex in tenderness and fairness, and treat them like our elder sister, (upper nuclear). The problem with men all too often is we tend to take advantage of the willingness of the female to believe and trust. This especially takes hold in the area of sexual contact. The bottom trigram represents that strong male force which can at times act way too aggressively, and without discipline. The upward thrust in this hexagram is into the mountain, which tends to arrest movement. Here the strong force is held firm by the immovable mountain. In this is hidden the counsel to maintain ourselves and not to move too swiftly. The nuclear hexagram here is 53, Gradual development. Often we men try to rush things. A lot of this comes from a fear of not being able to "score" before we have been rejected. In taking this attitude, and fearing this, we tend to bring upon ourselves the thing we fear. The hexagram counsels us to treat the ladies with respect, and move in accordance with their timing, not ours. In 53 and 25 we are counselled to let action take its own course, not to try to force things. Let them move in their own way and in their own times. My generation grew up with the "playboy" philosophy, the magazine of "how to score." So to speak. In so doing we have developed "lines" and subtle artifices to get the romantic mood that is required before a real seduction can take place. When this has happened the lady is often discarded as a bone with no meat left on it. Sometimes it has been called sport sex. But we are not to deal with ladies in such a fashion. The mountain tells us to restrain ourselves. The first line indicates that the original impulses of the heart are always good, but when we cover up that innocence with falsehood and lies, we bring down misfortune on ourselves. So the judgment of the hexagram says, "If one is not as he should be, he has misfortune." One problem we men have, is we are not honest with ourselves, so how can we be honest with our partners? It is hard to think about who we are and have inner truth when we are only concerned about who the Jets play next week. When our thoughts never go beyond who the best team, the best player, the fastest car is. We deal with trivialities. We don't take the time to get to know ourselves. So if we don't know ourselves, how can we be honest with ourselves, and by extension, with our partner? The hexagram counsels us to be as we should be. To know who we truly are, to act naturally, not to try to be someone we are not. And ladies, it does not help a man to be this way when you won't go out with him because, he is "too much like big brother." The nuclear trigram sun is also penetration. But the penetration of sun is gradual, it is not forced or contrived. So should we deal with women. Dogs and cats come to us on their terms, not ours. They chose when we pet them, when we do not. And we do not pet them when they are eating. Or in other words, when they are preoccupied with other things. There is a protocol. Courting must be a very gradual thing. The lower nuclear trigram ken shows the younger soon beneath the elder daughter, thus he gives her consideration. And one more thing. Women marry their dads, usually, men marry their mothers, usually. But dads have a strong influence on how we treat women. When the father does not treat them well, neither does the son. Usually. The upper trigram is chien, the father. This is where we first learn how to use the masculine energy in a positive, and nurturing way, not by force, not by coercion. The energy is used indirectly, as in hexagram 34.

Hexagram 25 is the hexagram where line two in hexagram 6, conflict, has dropped down to the first line. When we give up artifice, when we get back to our true and natural energy, we give up conflict. Until we learn to have respect for the opposite sex, there will always be a conflict, always a struggle. For falsehood leads to falsehood, and cheating leads to cheating, or worse, disaster.

Well, that is my perspective on 25.1

Gene
 

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