The Yi and Quantum Entanglement

[Lavalamp]

Probably been mentioned before, but an idea I've been ruminating on.
In the physics of Quantum entanglement you have what Einstein called "spooky action at a distance." With a pair of entangled particles, the state of change of one particle is reflected by it's object pair, even over great distances. This is a proven physical phenomena. And what causes entanglement in the larger sense is the very act of observation and measurement. In the case of Schrodinger's cat in a box, the cat is already entangled with the Universe. When you open the box to observe the cat, the cat becomes entangled with you.
This is an alternate view to some discussions here that posit the idea we inject meaning into what we are observing.
In a quantum mechanics view of the Yi, everything is the universe is already profoundly entangled. When we cast the Yi to more directly observe it - like popping the lid on Schrodinger's cat in the box - we become entangled as well. Then the coin toss yarrow stalks etc., like the physical spooky action at a distance of entangled particles, directly reflect the changes in the larger universe.
So divination is then direct observation of reality in the Universe. Perhaps what makes the Yi special as a system of divination is the structure it offers to reflect that universal reality.

- LL

 

[Freedda]

And since I don't know that this isn't true for other divination systems or more broadly, for other stuff, perhaps ...

Divination is one way to directly observe reality in the Universe, and as a system of divination, the Yi's structure reflects that universal reality. ​

 

[Lavalamp]

Divination is one way to directly observe reality in the Universe, and as a system of divination, the Yi's structure reflects that universal reality.

But why? How?
This is the orthodox view.
But to say this is what it does, does not explain why it does that, or how it does that.
Quantum entanglement - entanglement which is initiated by the act of observation - is a pretty good explanation.

- LL

 

[Valmar33]

I'm personally not convinced that it can be explained by "Quantum entanglement". Frankly, I'm not even sure how to tie the two together...

How does throwing three coins, or dividing the yarrow stalks, coincide with "observation by hypothetical entanglement" resulting in somehow magically getting an intelligent, sometimes startlingly precise answer? Sometimes, answers of a future which inevitably comes to pass?

The Yi's answers tend to be very much personal, and always deliver, even if the caster has never used them before, and has no real faith that they work. Even without a solid connection between caster and Yi, Yi still delivers...

The Yi has a mysterious power to it... and to explain the ancient with the popular methods of the time has always been a thing... and "Quantum entanglement" is indeed a popular, fanciful thing with lots of hype behind it, because it sounds all scientificy and stuff. It feels too... Materialist, philosophically, at times.

I'm much more inclined to see the Yi's source as a spiritual existence, as a wise old Sage who is always compassionate and understanding of those that ask because they require help to overcome various difficulties ~ from seemingly insignificant and foolish, to seemingly significant and important.

Just my five cents, for whatever they're worth.

 

[Freedda]

But why? How? This is the orthodox view.
But to say this is what it does, does not explain why it does that, or how it does that.

Well, I'll leave it to you to find an answer - which I suspect might be unknowable.

I am not a scientist, nor physicist, nor yogi, nor guru. And I really have no idea what Quantum entanglement or entangled particles are, and I seriously doubt I'd come to understand them reading this forum, or even from Wikipedia - which seems to many people's only source of information these days.

Any 'answer' I might come up with is going to be partial, speculative, subjective and at best only resemble a belief, or theory.

So, I'll stick with what I said, and leave the 'splainin' to you.

 

[Lavalamp]

Any 'answer' I might come up with is going to be partial, speculative, subjective and at best only resemble a belief, or theory.

Well this is the point of my post, that quantum mechanics - entanglement - is a rational scientific explanation for synchronicity and the divination of the Yi.

- LL

 

[Lavalamp]

How does throwing three coins, or dividing the yarrow stalks, coincide with "observation by hypothetical entanglement" resulting in somehow magically getting an intelligent, sometimes startlingly precise answer? Sometimes, answers of a future which inevitably comes to pass?

We know that when particles are entangled, they mirror each other. They could be miles apart, but the movement of one particle is reflected by the other. This concept rubbed Einstein the wrong way, he called it "spooky action at a distance." Amazing these discussions were taking place back in 1900 - 1920.
So I wondered what causes entanglement? And as it turns out it is, at least on one level, observation.
In Quantum physics observation is a powerful thing. Particles behave like waves and are predictable as waves in quantum mechanics until they are observed. Then once observed, they behave like particles in classic physics.

In the Schrodinger's cat example, the cat becomes entangled with the observer when the box is opened. But the cat is also already entangled to everything else in the universe.
If we view the coins or yarrow etc. of the Yi as our own version of Schrodinger's cat, the act of throwing the Yi is like opening up the box for observation. Then we see the cat/reading which is already entangled with the universe, mirroring the reality even far across time and space.

Or something like that? Lol... In this video Professor Carroll says a lot of people use quantum mechanics but can't explain it and fewer still understand it! Which is a lot like the Yi, wouldn't you say?

- LL

 

[Freedda]

Well this is the point of my post, that quantum mechanics - entanglement - is a rational scientific explanation for synchronicity and the divination of the Yi.

Well, it's good to know that you believe that.

 

[Valmar33]

In the Schrodinger's cat example, the cat becomes entangled with the observer when the box is opened. But the cat is also already entangled to everything else in the universe.
If we view the coins or yarrow etc. of the Yi as our own version of Schrodinger's cat, the act of throwing the Yi is like opening up the box for observation. Then we see the cat/reading which is already entangled with the universe, mirroring the reality even far across time and space.

Interesting ~ but I don't see how this explains the very precise answers Yi will give.

It certainly doesn't explain why Yi will sometimes just give me 63 as an answer, as if to say that Yi has already answered my question, or that I already have a decent clue as to the question I'm asking.

And I've gotten 63 more than I care to count, lately... along with a few 64s.

Quantum entanglement cannot explain the sense I get of an intelligence behind Yi that cannot fooled or manipulated.

Quantum entanglement might partially explain scenarios of mind over matter, though.

Yi... it can refuse to answer our questions, for whatever reason, by giving a hexagram and changing lines indicating this.

 

[Lavalamp]

Interesting ~ but I don't see how this explains the very precise answers Yi will give.

It certainly doesn't explain why Yi will sometimes just give me 63 as an answer, as if to say that Yi has already answered my question, or that I already have a decent clue as to the question I'm asking.

And I've gotten 63 more than I care to count, lately... along with a few 64s.

Quantum entanglement cannot explain the sense I get of an intelligence behind Yi that cannot fooled or manipulated.

Well I'm starting with Quantum entanglement explaining synchronicity.
Are you saying these "unexplained" aspects are simply outside the realm of synchronicity?
In a way the Yi is kind of a fixed format. There are images, judgments, advice all pretty much defined.
Is there a difference between cosmic consciousness - and the great collective unconscious? Is one synchronicity and the other not? Is the Yi one of them or both?

- LL

 

[Valmar33]

Well I'm starting with Quantum entanglement explaining synchronicity.

Sure, but I'm also not convinced that's the case.

Synchronicity is about meaningful coincidences ~ not about two distant particles being entangled.

Quantum entanglement is all well and good when applied to material things ~ but it kind of begins to not much sense when you're involving conscious beings.

Why? Well, in my worldview, the mind is immaterial, thus, Quantum entanglement makes no real sense in that regard.

Are you saying these "unexplained" aspects are simply outside the realm of synchronicity?

Not at all, lol.

But, they certainly seem outside the realm of Quantum entanglement.

In a way the Yi is kind of a fixed format. There are images, judgments, advice all pretty much defined.

Sure, but that has nothing to do with Quantum entanglement, from my perspective.

Is there a difference between cosmic consciousness - and the great collective unconscious?

Definitely ~ the human Collective Unconscious is not at all equal to Cosmic Consciousness.

Because there is a... feline Collective Unconscious, a tiger Collective Unconscious, a turtle Collective Unconscious, etc, etc, etc.

Is one synchronicity and the other not? Is the Yi one of them or both?

Synchronicity... meaningful coincidences... most indeed does the Yi abound with synchronicities.

But, in no way does that mean that Quantum entanglement is the cause.

The Yi is not purely physical, and doesn't bow down to the whims of our mind. It has its own intelligence, seemingly, from what I've observed of it.

 

[Lavalamp]

Synchronicity is about meaningful coincidences ~ not about two distant particles being entangled.

There has to be a reason why "meaningful coincidences" - synchronicity - occurs.
Simply saying "it just is" is the same thing that happens with quantum physics. Can't explain it! Don't understand why! We just use it is all, because it works!
You are apparently making a distinction between particles and conscious beings. I think this is artificial, and Schrodinger's cat in the box example includes not only living beings but the entire universe as a field of entanglement.
Why do the coins coincidently describe what's happening over there? How are the coins or yarrow stalks somehow connected to some person in another country, people we don't even know, what is happening in society or politics or economics, medicine?
That everything is connected through Entanglement is at least an answer to the question.
If one is even asking it.

- LL

 

[Valmar33]

There has to be a reason why "meaningful coincidences" - synchronicity - occurs.
Simply saying "it just is" is the same thing that happens with quantum physics. Can't explain it! Don't understand why! We just use it is all, because it works!

Yes, there is a reason ~ but that reason has nothing to do with matter or physics.

It has to do with the mind.

Synchronicities happen due to the mind being guided by unconscious forces towards something meaningful and helpful.

It has nothing to do with Quantum entanglement, as I understand it.

You are apparently making a distinction between particles and conscious beings. I think this is artificial, and Schrodinger's cat in the box example includes not only living beings but the entire universe as a field of entanglement.

I do make such a distinction, because it is very clear to me that there is a difference between living, conscious beings, and inanimate matter that has absolutely no observable qualities of consciousness.

Why do the coins coincidently describe what's happening over there? How are the coins or yarrow stalks somehow connected to some person in another country, people we don't even know, what is happening in society or politics or economics, medicine?

Why? Hmmmmmm... the explanation I have is that when we have the intention to cast a reading, we unconsciously connect with Yi, which then guides our hands ever so subtly as we cast the coins, so that they land in just the right way.

It is a synchronicity, a meaningful coincidence. Which is a very different concept to Quantum entanglement.

That everything is connected through Entanglement is at least an answer to the question.

It is an answer that you seem rigidly obsessed by.

My own experiences of non-physical conscious entities lead me to rather different conclusions.

 

[Lavalamp]

Yes, there is a reason ~ but that reason has nothing to do with matter or physics.

It has to do with the mind.

Synchronicities happen due to the mind being guided by unconscious forces towards something meaningful and helpful.

In Quantum theory, it totally has to do "with the mind." It is the action of observation that creates entanglement, which means the imposition of consciousness - the mind - creates the relationship.
In entanglement, what happens with this particle here is directly mirrored by that particle there.
Your explanation - the mind causes it - is exactly what happens with entanglement.

Why? Hmmmmmm... the explanation I have is that when we have the intention to cast a reading, we unconsciously connect with Yi, which then guides our hands ever so subtly as we cast the coins, so that they land in just the right way.

It is a synchronicity, a meaningful coincidence. Which is a very different concept to Quantum entanglement.

It isn't different at all. It's just a bit hard to grasp as concept I think. Watch the video.
What the Professor does not explain which is my question, is if the entire universe is a field of entanglement, so Schreodinger's cat is entangled just not with you until you open the box - and entanglement is caused by observation - what is the consciousness observing the Universe creating that entanglement with the cat?

- LL

- LL

 

[Valmar33]

In Quantum theory, it totally has to do "with the mind." It is the action of observation that creates entanglement, which means the imposition of consciousness - the mind - creates the relationship.
In entanglement, what happens with this particle here is directly mirrored by that particle there.
Your explanation - the mind causes it - is exactly what happens with entanglement.

Quantum entanglement has to do with particles... the mind, also, yes, but with atomic and subatomic particles in particular. Not was massive objects like coins or yarrow sticks. Massive, compared to single atoms, or subatomic particles.

It has nothing to do with the throwing of the coins or dividing of the yarrow sticks. These actions are not influenced by the stuff that happens on the subatomic level.

All that's really happening here is that you're making one massive extrapolation, a massive stretch, to make your pet interpretation of Quantum entanglement somehow fit as an explanation for synchronicity.

When it's really nothing more than your own unproven hypothesis.

It isn't different at all. It's just a bit hard to grasp as concept I think. Watch the video.
What the Professor does not explain which is my question, is if the entire universe is a field of entanglement, so Schreodinger's cat is entangled just not with you until you open the box - and entanglement is caused by observation - what is the consciousness observing the Universe creating that entanglement with the cat?

Seems to me like you've merely become captured by the idea of Quantum entanglement, and have extrapolated it far beyond what it's actually capable of doing.

The act of divination with the Yi has much less to do with Quantum entanglement, and far more to do with how Yi unconsciously influences our actions so that we cast, or divide, the coins, or yarrow sticks, in just the right way so that the result is an answer that Yi wishes to communicate to us.

From my understanding, there is nothing here to do with Quantum entanglement, in any manner.

Except for your fanciful, very far-reaching interpretation.

You seem to want it to be true, no matter how much you have to resort to making it appear true.

It's simply the case that Quantum entanglement and Jungian synchronicity are two quite different concepts.

Can they coincide? Sure. But not in the act of divination.

There is no "spooky actions at an distance" here. Merely Yi's communication with our personal unconscious to produce the necessary results.

 

[my_key]

A blast from the past on similar themes with some interesting contibutions from a number of the the 'old masters'.

Hex 25 - Without embroiling quantum physics

I came across this today.....or perhaps it came across me, but anyway and immediately thought of Hex 25 Innocence / Without Embroiling / Not Entangled. "Entanglement is a quantum physics term that refers to two distinct particles that become connected and start behaving as a single system...

www.onlineclarity.co.uk

May be helpful for some and may be not for others

Be well.

 

[Lavalamp]

Quantum entanglement has to do with particles... the mind, also, yes, but with atomic and subatomic particles in particular. Not was massive objects like coins or yarrow sticks. Massive, compared to single atoms, or subatomic particles.

It has nothing to do with the throwing of the coins or dividing of the yarrow sticks. These actions are not influenced by the stuff that happens on the subatomic level.

All that's really happening here is that you're making one massive extrapolation, a massive stretch, to make your pet interpretation of Quantum entanglement somehow fit as an explanation for synchronicity.

Well no, we are talking about wave functions that only transform into particles when consciousness interacts with them. And it is this imposition of consciousness that causes entanglement.
But it is kind of flattering for you to call it "my pet interpretation." There are certainly better minds...

Michio Kaku - "This means, in some sense, that what happens to us automatically affects things instantaneously in distant corners of the universe, since our wave functions were probably entangled at the beginning of time. In some sense there is a web of entanglement that connects distant corners of the universe, including us."

"Synchronicity," no?

- LL

 

[Valmar33]

Well no, we are talking about wave functions that only transform into particles when consciousness interacts with them.

Only on the subatomic level...

And it is this imposition of consciousness that causes entanglement.

Not with massive I Ching coins being thrown or yarrow sticks being divided.

There is no magical "entanglement" to be found at this level.

But it is kind of flattering for you to call it "my pet interpretation." There are certainly better minds...

Because it really is your pet interpretation.

Michio Kaku - "This means, in some sense, that what happens to us automatically affects things instantaneously in distant corners of the universe, since our wave functions were probably entangled at the beginning of time. In some sense there is a web of entanglement that connects distant corners of the universe, including us."

"Synchronicity," no?

Rather, he's spouting fanciful bullshit he has no knowledge of, based on a single concept related to the communication between particles at the subatomic level. The latter, he understands. The former is one massively stupid extrapolation that amounts to approximately nothing in practice.

Gotta market those physics theories to the public, though!

 

[Lavalamp]

Only on the subatomic level...

Not with massive I Ching coins being thrown or yarrow sticks being divided.

There is no magical "entanglement" to be found at this level.

Because it really is your pet interpretation.

Rather, he's spouting fanciful bullshit he has no knowledge of, based on a single concept related to the communication between particles at the subatomic level. The latter, he understands. The former is one massively stupid extrapolation that amounts to approximately nothing in practice.

Gotta market those physics theories to the public, though!

Well you speak with considerable absolutism - based on what one might ask? How do you *know* with such certainly I am wrong in what I am postulating? You express an almost religious absolutist certainty of the construction of the universe.
Divine revelation of arcane knowledge perhap? Did you publish some peer reviewed paper? You help build the Universe maybe?
Then you say it's only my idea, while trashing Michio Kaku for expressing the same idea.
It kind of a Luddite attitude, Valmar. All the hubris of science with no basis in evidence or rational theory offered as a counterpoint.

- LL