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dobro p

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In Karcher's versions of the Da Xiang, there's this little 'to' word that he very often inserts between the first and second parts of the second line. For example, the Da Xiang text for Hex 49 goes something like this:

March center having fire: Skinning
Chief son uses regulating times, lighting seasons

But Karcher puts a 'to' between 'regulating times' and 'lighting seasons' as if the meaning is that the chief son carries out the first action in order to achieve the second part which is the result.

Wilhelm doesn't do that, neither does Legge, and neither do I lol.

What do you think? Is there a word in Chinese that means 'in order to' that would have been included in the Da Xiang texts if that had been the intention of its author(s)?
 

pargenton

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Hi Dobro,
my understanding is that multiple translations are indeed possible, and all potentially equally valid.
You could look at Bradford's matrix translation, there is chinese text in the left row, and in the right row the multiple possible english meanings, including optional little words, like 'to', 'and' etc.
bye
Paolo
 

dobro p

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Brad's Da Xiang page is under construction.

And yeah, I know that different translations are possible. But what I want to know from people who live here is two things:

* which translation do you think is more accurate?

* which version is more useful in your considered opinion? Which one works better for you?
 

bradford_h

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Hi Dobro-
My Da Xiang tranlation has been done for years,
and online, in both simple and matrix versions. It's the commentary that's still under construction (two more months).
Paolo's right. My Matrix will walk you through every single Chinese word in the text and suggest several translations for each.
 

dobro p

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Ah, found it! You've worked it into the main text for the Yi. (I was looking at the heading without a link that said 'under construction' - duh.)

Which meaning works best for you, though? The one where the young noble carries out the action for the sake of the outcome? Or the one where he/she carries out two actions? Cause and effect, or double action?

That two-part construction following 'the young noble' that runs through the Da Xiang must surely echo the two trigrams that give the text its inspiration, right?
 

bradford_h

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Hi Dobro-
You know by now the word you were looking for was the Yi3 in jun zi yi.
This word has lots of meanings, as you can see from my glossary entry below.
Your "in order to" or "to" is among them. It's usually about instrumentality.
I usually take it as "uses his understanding of the aforesaid to ...".
What he uses is the understanding that a synthesis of the two trigram images
into one big picture (or Da Xiang in Chinese) gives him.
I'll usually simplify this and say "the noble young one, accordingly ..."
or ", therefore...."
Sometimes " the noble young one makes use of ..."

More meanings:
yi3 ¥H 2932 976b 9+3 04.1 (a, the) how, instrument, means, method, way (of/to), use (of); cause, intention, motive, purpose, reason, usefulness (for/of/to); (to) use (as, by, in, for, with, to); make (use of); utilize; take (advantage of); apply, try (as, in, to); act (by, with); avail of; employ (as, in, for, to); serve, help (as, in, for, to); (thereby) become, come (from/to), follow; resort, reach, extend, lead; approach, consider, deal with, deem, mean, regard, take, think of/about, treat (as); profit by, benefit from; (s, ed. ing); by (using, taking), by (way, means) of, by that which, by such means; for (in, this; the purpose/sake of), useful for; with, with which (to), with (this, these); along with, together with; of, out of, the use of; through, through which, through using, through the use of; (in order/serving) to, to be/have; (and) accordingly, consequently, therefore, thus, thereby, therewith, since (it is, they are), because/on account (of), wherefore, on the ground(s) of which, from/out of this, due to; according to, in accord with; although, though; until, until one can, when, where; inasmuch, insofar as; is on the way to; into, before, behind, out of, into; it, itself, that; (to be) beneficial, profitable, useful (in/for/to); as (if) (a, the) (way, means) (to); (it, which) serves to; so as to; how, that, in this way, why
 

dobro p

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Okay, I checked your glossary, and there were two results: I'm impressed and helped by it, and I'm probably more confused about how to think of the term now.

On the one hand, 'by means of' really works well in a lot of cases - in the Da Xiang, it works a treat because of the two-part nature of what it precedes. The idea of instrumentality works: "The young noble one, by means of differentiating above/below, establishes the people aims." At least, it works in the sense of reaching B by means of A.

But in the Yi proper, it occurs very often in a phrase that exists on its own, and then the 'by means of' translation doesn't work as well.

eg 4.1

...employing loosing fetters, shackles
By means of going distress/shame

I'm thinking it works in all cases with the meaning of instrumentality, not so much 'by way of' but more along the lines of 'using'. That's what Karcher plumps for. The problem I have with that is that I want to differentiate 'using' and 'employing', as in 4.1 above.


Here's another one:

"Stripping away bed by means of bedframe" - there's no 'in order to' anywhere in there, near as I can tell.

Argh.
 

bradford_h

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Hi Dobro-
This may help:
Chinese has maybe 8,000 words to cover the range of human experience.
English has maybe 250,000.
Chinese words are going to have to be a whole lot broader in uses and applications than English words.
That's why my glossary has so many meaings for each word.
There is, however, only one dragon, only one tiger.
 

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