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pgdn

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that is what i have found in changing lines and resulting hexagrams.... cast your hexagram, and the judgement provides a clear answer. but find you have changing lines, some which agree with the judgement, some which contradict it, and discover your resulting hexagram gives you another answer altogether.... things become confusing.
i think for a concise answer its better to read the judgement part alone. for a more detailed picture cast the 'resulting' hexagaram yourself. by comparing the two you can find out which lines have changed.There are bound to be several (no doubt contradicting the judgement or one another) but that won't be a problem anymore,since they are now just 'events' on the way to an outcome you already know.

its a weird way of doing things but it seems to work. please tell me what you think.
 

hilary

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I think that if you omit the lines, you're going to miss some things you really need to know. The basic solution to the 'TMI' problem is to realise that the different parts of a reading fit together like the different parts of an engine. They're not all there to perform the same function. If you try to read each part as 'the answer', then they do all tend to contradict one another and generate confusion by the cartload. It's like sitting on the workshop floor surrounded by engine parts, picking up one piece after another and asking if this is the part that 'works'.

Or something like that, anyway.

As for which part is which and how they fit together... there isn't a book that gives you The Right Answer on this. What works for me, roughly speaking, is to read the first hexagram as basic scenario, the second hexagram as how I relate to it - the bigger personal picture it's part of - and the moving lines as 'you are here' or 'you could be here' signs in that basic scenario.

For a concise answer I would cast an eye over the names of the two hexagrams and my 'mental picture' of them both, and then read the moving lines. But I'd rather take the time to immerse myself in the whole reading (and there can be much more to that than just two hexagrams and a few lines) and go through the whole experience of the divination.
 

Trojina

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I can see the logic that all parts of a reading must be relevant but for me, in practice, especially for very simple questions I reckon getting hung up on trying to make 3 or 4 changing lines make sense has in the past hindered what was a pretty straight forward answer. I always used to to look at all the lines till someone here suggested if there were many moving lines to look at the two hexagrams and I just find it works well for me. The first time i did it this way i was asking if i should do a course that came up unexpectedly and got 25 -58, so lines 2 and 6 moving in 25. If I'd focused on line 6 I wouldn't have gone, but instead read it as unexpected communion with others which is how it turned out - I'm glad I went ahead.

I just find answers can be very simple, just jump out at you if you don't narrow focus too much.
 
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magictortoise

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I was taught that the judgment on the lines take precedent over the judgment on the entire hexagram because the lines represent specifications of the general situations. Case in point: Hexagram 54, line one moving. If I had asked about initiating a new project I would definitely go ahead with it based on the judgment on the moving line: Undertakings bring good fortune. This in spite of the judgment in the hexagram as a whole: Undertakings bring misfortune.

As for the derived hexagram, as Hilary stated the different parts of a reading fit together like different parts of an engine. I was taught that the derived hexagram could either be the upshot of following the counsel in the primary hexagram, or it might represent the consequences if one DOES NOT follow the counsel. Yet again it may amend and expand the counsel of the primary hexagram. In the example above 54(1) changes to 40, Deliverance. Were this a new project I would interpret it to mean that moving forward with plans will result in release of tension at some level. Or if one received hexagram 6, Conflict, line 6 moving, in reply to a question about relating to a co-worker
one would be counseled to not become arrogant and pursue things to the bitter end. The upshot, hexagram 47, Exhaustion, implies the outcome if one did not follow the counsel in the primary hexagram. A classic example of the derived hexagram reinforcing the primary hexagram is hexagram 57, line 5 moving and changing to hexagram 18. The primary response turns upon achieving a descive beginning and setting about at reform. Hexagram 18 in the judgement has a similar counsel. It amends the counsel of hexagram 57, to work with diligence in dealing with the mistakes of the past that have brought about decay.

These examples are simplified, of course. Sometimes, many times, the reply is not cut-and-dry and will require some time to weigh and consider, to reflect on what you are being told. One should bring all their intuitive facilities to bear.

Best regards,
Ken Wanamaker


PS W/R 25(2,6)-->58 This one is tough, where you are seemingly getting two differing counsels, but I would definitely had read it as a counsel to move forward with plans(line 2) but to make certain that in moving forward you do not try to get ahead of the natural pace of things.(line 6) Being intent on undertakings and having received a good line in support you may be a little anxious to get it going when the hexagram is counseling to take it easy. Just my take, though. ;)
 

magictortoise

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Anyone else here ever get 60, lines 1 and 2?

I have received it frequently in my daily consultations. It requires a particular sensitivity to the time and a great deal of attentiveness, since one doesn't want to miss the right time and get on the wrong side of either line. It reminds me somewhat of the counsel in 52: when it is time to move, then move, when it is time to stop, stop. And that can be something as simple as going to bed at the right time. Whenever I receive 60(1,2) I know that timeliness is very crucial. And In hexagram 41 in the appended texts Wilhelm states all that matters is that things happen at the right time.

Ken Wanamaker
 

Trojina

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Ken that situation played out and it turned out in retrospect very important i went ahead, i would regret it greatly if i had not. BTW if one line is moving I give it much attention and pay less attention to the relating hexagram. I never thought of the relating hex as the outcome if one did not follow the counsel - thats interesting.

Bruce yes I have had 60 lines 1 and 2 moving lol - that has to be the most annoying answer ever :rofl:
 
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bruce_g

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The Yi is just plain freaking amazing. It/he/she/they/whatever truly are water, can flow around any obstacle and through any opening we have.

Trojan, thinking about your method a little while, I can see how that would provide everything one would need. It's as though you build a canal (I imagine it of wood), winding through the neuro-pathways. Water flows from point A to point B, and voila! The answer.

Others, for some reason, have more twisty pathways :rofl: so, more lines are all the more fun to indulge in.
 

Sparhawk

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It's as though you build a canal (I imagine it of wood), winding through the neuro-pathways. Water flows from point A to point B, and voila! The answer.

Woodhead! :D
 

Sparhawk

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My brain is more like this...

Steelwool.jpg
 

Sparhawk

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I knew you were at home sharing some wine with me... :D

thefly1500.jpg
 
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bruce_g

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But seriously, and back to the original posted question, I believe people are just wired differently. There's no "right" way, there is only what works.
 

magictortoise

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I never thought of the relating hex as the outcome if one did not follow the counsel - thats interesting.

Keep in mind that all this is not written in stone. It will vary of course with the question and the circumstance. Practice plays a big role. I do not know how long you have been working with the I Ching, but over a long period you'll get a feel as to exactly how the derived hexagram comes into play.

Good thread and thanx,

Ken
 

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