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Troubled relationship 59.5 -> 4

Phaboo

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Hi everyone. I have deeply disappointed and hurt my girlfriend with something I did. Since I'm anonymous and my acquaintances are unlikely to read this anyway, I'll tell what I did to simplify things up for you.

I have been with her for 1 year and we've been loving and respecting each other very much. We both experienced a connection so strong and deep that we never felt with no one else. We're both 26 (almost born on the same day) and she even talked about living together after graduating and getting a job.

She is a radical feminist. I always respected her ideas and even shared most of her opinions, although it felt intimidating for me at times. Well, we discussed a few times about pornography and the negative impact that it has on many levels. I always agreed with her as I never liked it in the first place, although I admit it is something that I found myself using to relieve tension. But I always thought there's a balance in everything and that was not harmful per se, unless you get into weird stuff or simply become addicted to it. But anyway this never was something to argue about since I never even thought about using it since we've been together. Not because she said I couldn't, she never said that, but simply because I never felt like it. Why looking at two strangers having sex when I can close my eyes and imagine being with her? That's how I always felt about it even as a single guy, but even more since I've been with her.

Well, a week ago I watched one. I'm not sure why I did it, I think that I felt neglected and maybe a little bit bored, sexually. We have a routine that I grow tired of, I have never met her parents and we're always at my place. I don't have a license yet and she doesn't have a car, so we have a very strict schedule because public transport here is really inefficient and limited. We only spent the night together two times, both unplanned, because her parents don't know about me. It happened only when they were out of town. I never wanted her to feel guilty about it, even though she knows I'm not that happy about it. But she says her communication with her parents, especially with her mother, is not simple, so she chose to avoid telling them.

Anyway, I felt so guilty about doing that I could not feel any true intimacy unless I told her, and so I did. She went really, really mad at me even though I said that I was really sorry and that it was really stupid. The problem is that I realized too late that for her whatching porn is one of the most unethical and mysoginous thing one could possibly do. There are various reasons for believing that. To simplify, for her every porn is like a rape, no matter what. That kind of bad. Not only she was angry because of it, but also because I waited three days to tell her, as I wasn't sure if that was the right thing to do. For her, I told her only because that time I could not perform sexually (something which never happened, I'm healthy) for how guilty I was. I believe it's unfair to say that since I could have kept it too myself, nobody on earth knew that except me. I thought she would acknowledge my honesty for telling that... I couldn't make love with her if I knew I was keeping a secret. For a lot of people what I've done wouldn't count as cheating, but I realized that if you did something that your partner would be really upset knowing that you did it, that's cheating.

Right after she went back home, I asked I Ching how to let her know that I am sorry and that I loved her. I got 62.1.6 -> 30. Really bad omen I thought. So I realized that words won't be enough. In fact she said that she accepted my excuses but also said that she needed some time alone to process her feelings, without even texting. But the morning after I woke up with lots of texts written in the middle of the night saying the most resentful things, that I ruined everything and she doesn't even know me, she never really known me. And aside this relationship we've been friends as teenagers, so we actually know A LOT each other! That hurts.

That morning, after replying to all those things, trying to apologise and telling how sorry I am, I asked I Ching a more open question. What should I do with her? 59.5 - 4

I thought well, dissolution... That means it's over, isn't it? But then I heard that when times are troubled dissolution could mean the dissolution of the problem...

Anyway, the 5th line told me about sharing a common goal, a strong ideal, making sacrifices (which I literally do everyday now by praying the spirits of nature, offering smoke of white sage to the wind, red wine to the earth and the trees, etc.).
It also talks about how sweat dissolves the fever. So I decided to continue talking things through even though she was still mad, but it didn't seem to help, apparently. The more I felt judged the more I felt helpless. Trying to justifying my behaviour was counterproductive, telling that I am not "that kind of guy" useless... I even recorded a song which I dedicated to her 10 years ago when we were friends as teenagers (but I was in love with her and too shy to admit it, then life brought us apart till last year) and she didn't want to listen to it. Although I hope she eventually did or will. At a lot of points in those fights it really seemed that she wanted to break up but then she would say that she doesn't know what to do, that she's desperately trying to find good reasons to forgive me, that she's feeling too upset to think rationally.

Then I realized what the 5th line, the strong ideal, could refer to. It's not that I actually cheated on her, but that I didn't care about her values enough. So I decided to read an essay of Andrea Dworkin (a radical feminist writer) about pornography and I told her about that. I humbly told her that I underestimated the importance of the matter and that I wanted to educate myself. She replied that it seemed a good idea. But after trying to text her again, she wrote me that she was still a lot upset and that she needed time apart to process her feelings. She explicitly asked not to text her and that she will be back when she made her mind.

After a couple of hours she told me that she was sorry for being rough and that she appreciates what I'm doing. Then she wrote: "I care lot about us". Then she told me to wait to hear from her and it's been 3 days already know. It feels like a torture.

At first I felt so much hope. Finally hearing that she appreciates that I'm trying to make up for it, that she cares about us...
But knowing that I hurt her, that she lost her trust, that she thinks of me as a different person... The more time passes the more I fear the worst. I keep thinking one of the first things she said. That even if she forgives me, she felt that "something has broken".

That's all. If you went this far reading all that, kudos to you. Thanks a lot!
 
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diamant

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Hi Phaboo,

how to let her know that I am sorry and that I loved her 62.1.6 > 30
62 is about remaining low key. It says that the bird shouldn't fly. Here, however, the advice is not followed and the bird flies, thus inviting misfortune. What is more, the hexagram is concluded and played out very fast, so we immediately get to line 62.6, in which the bird flies away for good. 30 is about looking after your survival, even if something has been lost. The bird that flies away here is your girlfriend, since you said that you always meet at your place (the nest).
So, how to let her know - this is a small issue, it doesn't sound severe enough to break a couple, but if that's what she wishes to do, then so be it.

What should I do with her? 59.5 > 4
I've had this cast again and again about people who enjoy shouting, and more specifically shouting stupidities. The common point of said people was that they just enjoyed shouting, so they found any old excuse to do that. I can easily see how this would apply to her. Her reaction is extreme and disproportionate to what happened. What should you do with such a person? Not much really, they'll keep shouting, for one reason or another, that's what they like doing.
 

Trojina

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Anyway, I felt so guilty about doing that I could not feel any true intimacy unless I told her, and so I did. She went really, really mad at me even though I said that I was really sorry and that it was really stupid. The problem is that I realized too late that for her whatching porn is one of the most unethical and mysoginous thing one could possibly do. There are various reasons for believing that. To simplify, for her every porn is like a rape, no matter what. That kind of bad. Not only she was angry because of it, but also because I waited three days to tell her, as I wasn't sure if that was the right thing to do. For her, I told her only because that time I could not perform sexually (something which never happened, I'm healthy) for how guilty I was. I believe it's unfair to say that since I could have kept it too myself, nobody on earth knew that except me. I thought she would acknowledge my honesty for telling that... I couldn't make love with her if I knew I was keeping a secret. For a lot of people what I've done wouldn't count as cheating, but I realized that if you did something that your partner would be really upset knowing that you did it, that's cheating.

Oh dear, you poor thing, I feel for you in your kind innocent soul.

You have done nothing wrong at all and you didn't need to tell her.

You haven't cheated on her and FWIW I think it's okay to watch porn unless it's clearly against the will of the participants or it's child porn. Pornography is as old as humanity and it is not going to vanish because of her alleged 'radical' feminism. it's not ever going to vanish no matter what ideals anyone has because there is money to be made and a market to meet and there always has been and there always will be. Also countless sex workers actually enjoy their work, I don't believe all porn is only about women or men as victims being exploited. I mean it can be dark, no doubt it's not ideal to get addicted to the stuff but ffs who hasn't looked at porn online in private !!? Your mind and body are your own, she doesn't own you and you have a right to masturbate whenever you want to without her knowledge and without her permission.


I should think the vast majority of men in relationships look at porn, it's just not a threat to a relationship. In the old days men had porn magazines in the garden shed. A thousand years ago men probably had images hidden away to look at when their wives were nursing babies or whenever. Watching porn is actually an aid to staying faithful since men are biologically programmed to spread their seed with many women. At least with porn they aren't actually going with other women.


None of this is the reading yet I just wanted to tell you you haven't done anything wrong. If you try to hold to this highly idealised vision where any thoughts about other women have to be shared before her it will kill off your sex drive in the end I'd think, it's just so repressive.

Right after she went back home, I asked I Ching how to let her know that I am sorry and that I loved her. I got 62.1.6 -> 30. Really bad omen I thought. So I realized that words won't be enough. In fact she said that she accepted my excuses but also said that she needed some time alone to process her feelings, without even texting. But the morning after I woke up with lots of texts written in the middle of the night saying the most resentful things, that I ruined everything and she doesn't even know me, she never really known me. And aside this relationship we've been friends as teenagers, so we actually know A LOT each other! That hurts.

That morning, after replying to all those things, trying to apologise and telling how sorry I am, I asked I Ching a more open question. What should I do with her? 59.5 - 4

I think she's being ridiculous ! Utterly ridiculous, childish, living in a fantasy land. You didn't need to make excuses, you didn't need to be sorry and you have said you love her so her problem is she's getting upset about nothing and needs to accept you are allowed private time in your own mind. Without Yi the question 'what should I do with her ?' er tell her to grow up ? Er 59.5 stop holding it all in and let it all out. In this line any reserves are spent, the times are extreme, generosity is called for. I think you are in danger of being bullied so why not just let all your feelings out, stop apologising and say you felt like looking at porn. As it is it's like you are cringing like a child who did something wrong, don't be like that.

Then I realized what the 5th line, the strong ideal, could refer to. It's not that I actually cheated on her, but that I didn't care about her values enough. So I decided to read an essay of Andrea Dworkin (a radical feminist writer) about pornography and I told her about that. I humbly told her that I underestimated the importance of the matter and that I wanted to educate myself. She replied that it seemed a good idea. But after trying to text her again, she wrote me that she was still a lot upset and that she needed time apart to process her feelings. She explicitly asked not to text her and that she will be back when she made her mind.

Oh yeah I studied Andrea Dworkin 30 years ago, it's a fairly flawed intellectual position you know which is actually quite sexist as it defines women as a whole other species which is precisely what feminism is trying to get away from. There's many flaws in her work, and one wonders according to Dworkin just exactly what kind of sex is permissible. Many feminists wouldn't agree with Dworkin or radical feminism. I don't because it's sexist. So it's not a final word it's just one branch of feminism with a very shaky philosophical basis.


Yes educate yourself but Dworkin's position is badly thought out and way out of date.
 

marybluesky

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Hello;

To be honest I don't know if I can offer an unbiased reading here as I feel for your GF for I'm a feminist, I have a strict mother with whom I can't communicate many things -well, I do, as I'm not good in keeping my mouth shot, but the result is permanent tension- & I consider pornography a mysogynistic industry, at least the male-dominated type we often see these days. Plus, I don't agree with the traditional view that sees using pornography & going to brothels a natural "man" thing, basically reducing women to sex objects that either 1) are placed under slut category and deserve no respect, or 2) are "maintained" gracefully in order to be a good pot to transform sperms into legitimate children. I hate pornography because it has stemmed from such roots.

Then what the heck I do on a forum dedicated to I Ching with that ultra chauvinistic view on women? It's my own question, too.

That said, I find your query & your lack of tolerance for non-transparency extremely honorable.

I agree that 62.1.6 doesn't sound hopeful, like much "what's done is done".

59.5>4 says proclaim what's in your mind, whatever be the results.
 

marybluesky

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Watching porn is actually an aid to staying faithful since men are biologically programmed to spread their seed with many women. At least with porn they aren't actually going with other women.
Trojina, my view is different from yours as I consider no gender to be inherently monogamous.

You believe that men are biologically programmed to spread their seeds, while based on many comments of yours, I know that you see the "casual" to be harmful to majority of women.

I don't intend to discuss who is polygamous and who's monogamous, I just wonder if men & women are so inherently different, what's the point of encouraging commited relationships when one should permanently find decent ways to get rid if his sperm in order to remain faithful while the other is always on the verge of being hurt because her man would cheat on her if he doesn't find alternative ways to what the nature wants him to do.
 

Trojina

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Trojina, my view is different from yours as I consider no gender to be inherently monogamous.


I haven't said any gender is inherently monogamous.

You believe that men are biologically programmed to spread their seeds, while based on many comments of yours, I know that you see the "casual" to be harmful to majority of women.

I wouldn't say it is a belief so much as an evolutionary fact. Doesn't mean all men have to go ahead and spread their seed around but yes young men are going to be sexually interested in many women which doesn't mean they won't be faithful or that they don't love the one they are with. I'm not saying what you think I'm saying. I don't know for sure if casual sex is harmful to women, many enjoy it but it seems to me the majority of women on these forums are trying to read men's minds because they want more than what they offered if all they are offered is sex. Or more to the point there seems to be many women willing to put up with really shabby treatment from men who are clearly using them in the hope of getting more of a relationship eventually.


I don't intend to discuss who is polygamous and who's monogamous, I just wonder if men & women are so inherently different, what's the point of encouraging commited relationships when one should permanently find decent ways to get rid if his sperm in order to remain faithful while the other is always on the verge of being hurt because her man would cheat on her if he doesn't find alternative ways to what the nature wants him to do.

The thing is ideology is all very well but it can't dictate anyone's sexuality, sexuality is a pretty wild anarchic thing. I can't see any harm in masturbation, I can't think of any reason anybody should ever be sorry for that. I think it's a private matter for men and women and of course women masturbate too and watch porn or read porn too and I really can't see, if in a couple, why partner is duty bound to tell the other they just masturbated. The idea that masturbation is cheating is ludicrous to me. Imagine a 40 year marriage without masturbation, it wouldn't happen. There will be times one partner wants sex and the other doesn't. There will be times where one partner just wants to indulge in a certain fantasy, or just wants to relax so they can sleep. There's many self soothing functions of masturbation, sometimes people masturbate more when they are anxious, it's part of one's relationship with oneself. It doesn't really detract from a relationship unless I guess people end up never turning to each other but I mean I think it's pretty much a fact that most men masturbate and probably most women. Women talk less about it so it may be less obvious but yes most people masturbate.


Here I am on an I Ching forum writing paragraphs about masturbation...how did that happen :rofl:

I think it's a very youthful attitude for a woman to be upset by her boyfriend masturbating. I would think most older women wouldn't worry about it. Of course they won't generally 'see' it because it's a private thing and it's his business or her business. Now I can understand it may be upsetting if you found your boyfriend was watching some violent porn or something really ugly but just regular porn, so what, big deal.

I think it's just completely nuts to expect one's partner of either sex not to masturbate. Really I think it's bonkers, it's like saying 'don't scratch your own backside it belongs to me'. If they want to do it let them do it, male or female and as it's private you won't see it anyway.

That said, I find your query & your lack of tolerance for non-transparency extremely honorable.
I think it's a very sweet question, this is clearly a very nice guy. But I worry for him that he feels he has no right to masturbate and that he feels he must apologise for it. That's just awful, very repressive. I don't think it bodes well for the relationship if she thinks she can control him masturbating. Of course ideally he would not have told her.
 

Trojina

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Back to the reading I didn't see



Right after she went back home, I asked I Ching how to let her know that I am sorry and that I loved her. I got 62.1.6 -> 30. Really bad omen I thought. So I realized that words won't be enough. In fact she said that she accepted my excuses but also said that she needed some time alone to process her feelings, without even texting. But the morning after I woke up with lots of texts written in the middle of the night saying the most resentful things, that I ruined everything and she doesn't even know me, she never really known me. And aside this relationship we've been friends as teenagers, so we actually know A LOT each other! That hurts.
Well the fact is you do not need to be sorry. The reading looks like you feel overwhelm on some level, you must be a very emotional person but be careful your emotions don't take you way too far away from yourself. In 62.1 way too much is attempted and 62.6 the message is missed. I think you need some Clarity (30) don't ask this of yourself.

If you turn it around can you imagine her saying to you 'darling I'm so so sorry I watched porn and masturbated'. How would you react ? I guess one useful reaction would be to ask 'is there anything you like that you're watching that we could share or do together, you know fantasy exploration is a lot of fun.'. That's a heck of a lot more sane than 'Andrea Dworkin says you can't watch porn nor masturbate to it'.
 
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marybluesky

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@Trojina , I see masturbation & pornography two different domains, even if the latter leads to the first more often than not.

My question about the point of committed relationships wasn't based on masturbation in the way you explained here:
why partner is duty bound to tell the other they just masturbated. The idea that masturbation is cheating is ludicrous to me. Imagine a 40 year marriage without masturbation, it wouldn't happen. There will be times one partner wants sex and the other doesn't. There will be times where one partner just wants to indulge in a certain fantasy, or just wants to relax so they can sleep. There's many self soothing functions of masturbation, sometimes people masturbate more when they are anxious, it's part of one's relationship with oneself. It doesn't really detract from a relationship unless I guess people end up never turning to each other but I mean I think it's pretty much a fact that all men masturbate and probably most women. Women talk less about it so it may be less obvious but yes most people masturbate.

It was based on the hypothesis that pornography would help men to remain faithful as it makes them less keen to pursue other females as they are wired to do.

yes young men are going to be sexually interested in many women which doesn't mean they won't be faithful or that they don't love the one they are with.
Then what's the point of doing performance art to keep someone who is naturally inclined to have multiple partners?
 
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Phaboo

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Thanks a lot for your replies. I'm really grateful that you all shed some light on the matter.

I'll do my best to reply to everyone. In the meantime, I just wanted to tell you that she finally texted me, just a couple of hours after my post. She said that she just read Dworkin's essay on pornography, the one that I've been reading. I replied that I'm still reading the 3rd chapter, and told her about all the things that I've been busy with.

She replied that we could talk about it after I've finished it. Then I didn't try to engage further into the conversation because at that point I felt like she reached to me only to check if I was truly reading the book as I promised or not. But after half an hour she said that she misses me. She said that she really cares about us and even if I disappointed her, she appreciates that I want to educate myself on the matter.

At the end of the day I think this was the 5th line's "great idea which provides the focal point for recovery". It gave her the confirm she needed that I do care about her beliefs and that I want to support her in that.

I believe that even if she is "wrong" about pornography, that doesn't matter. The thing is that as her boyfriend I must respect her values and what she believes in. I should add that she never said not to masturbate, we used to tell "I was thinking about you" as an euphemism to say that we just masturbated. It's sweet but this gave me the idea that I couldn't fantasize about anyone else, which is frustrating at some point. Of course I'm going to think about her 99% of the time but the mind just wants to wander sometimes.

Ironically, that night I saw a selfie of a woman I know and I found her really attractive. But fantasizing on her would have felt bad and that's why I searched for porn - cause at least I wouldn't have known them.

I can happily live without porn, there other ways to engage into autoeroticism which are far better.
 

Trojina

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It was based on the hypothesis that pornography would help men to remain faithful as it makes them less keen to pursue other females as they are wired to do.

I don't know, can't know if masturbation does serve that function of helping men stay faithful but it is an outlet of release for both sexes and I should think in difficult times, for example after a woman just had a baby, masturbation could be quite an essential release for the man. His partner may not feel up to it. Can you imagine a man in that scenario going and apologising for watching some porn and masturbating....I'm afraid I have to shut up...people in long term relationships all/most masturbate at some point, it's quite normal. It is not wrong, it is not cheating.




Then what's the point of doing performance art to keep someone who is naturally inclined to have multiple partners?
:???:

I don't understand what you mean by performance art ? You mean pornography



There's several strands here

Ideology about sex, what people believe about it
Practical issues around sex and lineage/morals
Evolutionary and biological factors



We are apes. We are animals. We are programmed to want sex. Nature made sex so much fun we'd do it a lot in order to propagate. All life forms, plant, animal, whatever are designed to propagate themselves to perpetuate life. The male has many seeds and could impregnate many females in a month. The female only produces one ovum and she's the one to physically nourish the fertilised ovum. We can't escape certain evolutionary biological components in our species.

I don't really understand your question but it boils down to I didn't make evolution up and moreover no ideology of any kind will ever change evolutionary predispositions.

But of course we aren't just animals, we have complex social systems, we make families and societies and promiscuity can undermine the structure in society so we have moral codes. We also have religious and spiritual considerations in channelling sexual urges...and of course there's love and affection also connected to sex and all that so our genetic predispositions in sex can get pretty well buried. But they can't be wholly supressed which is where masturbation has a useful psychological and physical function.

And what about a man whose wife becomes severely disabled and she can't have sex. He's still going to want sex, he won't want to leave her or go with other women so he will naturally masturbate. Imagine the tension in him if he could not do that. It would be the same for a woman whose husband became severely disabled too. She will still want sex, why should she not still get pleasure from her body in masturbation.


@Trojina , I see masturbation & pornography two different domains, even if the latter leads to the first more often than not.

People seek out pornography when they need sexual release. Pornography, like the I Ching, does not seek them out, they seek it out. For sure there is much awful exploitation in the industry and much that shouldn't happen but on the other hand there's plenty of people who make a good living from it and consider it their art and their job and I think it has a role and always will have a role in society.
 

marybluesky

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I don't understand what you mean by performance art ? You mean pornography
No; by performance art I mean the efforts a woman makes to have/ save a committed relationship.
:D

I mean why a woman should try to have/keep a committed relationship with a man who, as you as, is naturally inclined to have multiple partners? Isn't it contradictory?

Yes we are apes. So why is it beyond a woman's dignity to sleep around/have multiple partners/casual relationships? I think the fact that sex is an animalistic instinct is only recognized for men, and women are regarded objects who'll become worthless if act upon the same animalistic instinct out of the stifling social norms.

The other day I came across Maslow's pyramid. While sex is a basic need, and it should be regarded as a priority, women are taught to have sex only with someone who loves them and is committed to them; in other words, they should first satisfy an upper level need to be able to satisfy a basic need. Ultra contradictory.
 

Trojina

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I mean why a woman should try to have/keep a committed relationship with a man who, as you as, is naturally inclined to have multiple partners? Isn't it contradictory?

In evolutionary terms she needs him around to bring food for the babies like animals do and to protect her young and so on. The male is interested in protecting his offspring also to a degree and his lineage in humans.

But I don't think you are recognising the subliminal levels this would operate on, as I said these urges can be well buried. Evolution also wants protected young and nourished infants and of course most men don't want to actually sleep with hundreds of women (it could be tiring) ....well I have no data on that, clearly rock stars do quite well at it....

Anyway I can't account for evolution.



Yes we are apes. So why is it beyond a woman's dignity to sleep around/have multiple partners/casual relationships? I think the fact that sex is an animalistic instinct is only recognized for men, and women are regarded objects who'll become worthless if act upon the same animalistic instinct out of the stifling social norms.

I haven't said it's beyond a woman's dignity it's just in practice, from what I've seen it doesn't make women happy. And in evolutionary terms even why would it. We aren't governed wholly by evolution but there's enough there I think to make women less inclined to be fulfilled by casual sex because there's no guarantee their pregnancy will be protected - when I say 'pregnancy' here I'm not being completely literal of course because these days pregnancy may not come into at all.


Where I live in the UK casual sex is seen as quite usual and even desirable for women. There is no sense that a woman becomes worthless from casual sex at all, indeed it is celebrated. There aren't stifling social norms in most mainstream sections of society. However I think pushing casual sex as desirable is a con and it just makes women miserable most of the time since they end up pretending it's all fine and denying they have any other needs for security etc. Then they come to I Ching forums and ask

'What does he want from me ? We sleep together every 6 weeks and it's fabulous but then he doesn't call me. What is he thinking about me ?'.

There's a virtual epidemic of those in this forum and I think it shows a real confusion that's been fostered by the promotion of casual sex in the media etc. These questions are all from women so something went wrong and casual sex is not actually a feminist act at all as it is falsely sold since they are all unhappy, confused and waiting desperately for the man they had casual sex with to call and then when he does call they have to pretend to be casual. Oh yeah really feminist eh ? it's all a big con, no way does it have much to do with feminism although I guess women being free to be sexual is to do with feminism. But you see that's where ideology and reality clash again. Casual sex is also high cost emotionally for women since I think they just invest more emotionally whereby it's less so for men. That's not all to do with society I think there is biology there too. Of course these are my impressions that's all and I'm not an expert on Sex in Society......I'm chuckling here wondering why I am writing so much on the topic given I do not have extensive data to support my thesis.


I do however have extensive data from unhappy women in casual sex relationships on this forum and so possibly that's coloured my outlook. After 20 odd years of being here I could write the archetypal problem women will come with and it's along those lines

'We have great sex, he doesn't call me, I'm hanging on desperately to hear from him but hey it's all casual, no pressure, he's busy, he's so creative (he's actually a dick we all know that), but why doesn't he call me ?' .

Men do not post threads like that. If they have I have rarely seen it. Men will more likely be asking about how to get a woman back, they tend to be slightly more obsessive about holding on to a woman but they are far less common.


Of course the women who are emotionally happy and engaged in casual sex may not post on these forums and so I may be getting a skewed view of Sex and Society. All I see on these forums is the women who got ripped off by the 'casual sex is a feminist act' lie.
 

Trojina

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Sorry Phaboo I don't want to swamp the thread so much...
 
B

becalm

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Certainly. And she as your girlfriend should be reasonable and not bully you.
Personally I find this relationship quite troubling. The thing that seems to happens a lot in relationships is that each partner thinks that the other SHOULD believe the same thing as they do. There's nothing wrong with pornography if it doesn't become an addiction and for all the other reasons that have been spoken about on here.
Her sex drive might not be the same as yours so no harm in finding a way to get aroused enough to orgasm if the urge is there.
Geezus, we're separate human beings with natural urges.
 

Phaboo

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Certainly. And she as your girlfriend should be reasonable and not bully you.
She is truly hurt about that, it wasn't just bullying for the sake of it. I know her and I know she gets angry as a mechanism of defense. If I could convince her that she is wrong about porn I would have done it. But I actually do feel like it's degradating for women.
 
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becalm

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She is truly hurt about that, it wasn't just bullying for the sake of it. I know her and I know she gets angry as a mechanism of defense. If I could convince her that she is wrong about porn I would have done it. But I actually do feel like it's degradating for women.
Anger is not defense, it's a lack of having a coping mechanism.
 
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diamant

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@Phaboo I understand anger as an initial reaction, caused by shock.
Her sustained irrational disproportionate anger, and her domineering attitude, are not good for resolving issues between you. If you two are to stay together long-term, I don't see how you'll be happy if she doesn't learn how to resolve issues in a caring and respectful manner. She's bullying you.
 

Phaboo

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Thank you for your support. I really appreciate that. I don't know if she has a "domineering attitude", I may be too in love to see that even if it's true. I don't see myself threatened by her attitude anyway. I just think she is scared of men and lacks trust in general. But she eventually admitted that deep inside she knows that I am not "that kind of men" even though she thought that "I was perfect" and knowing what I did she has been disappointed. Yes, we need clarity (62.1.6 -> 30) and yes, we need to dismantle the idea that I don't respect women (59.5 -> 4). But in order to do that what is required is gentleness, patience, time. 59 is wind above the water, right? So these are the quality of the wind, in order to disperse water. Correct me if I am wrong...
 
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diamant

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Nobody's perfect. Long-term relationships heavily depend on what compromises each is willing to make. Such compromises should be made via free will, not via emotionally blackmailing the other person.

Anyway... you're in love with her, that's great, and it's great that you want to put in the effort to make this work. How about you ask: "how to act towards her in order to successfully resolve this and continue together?" (or something like that, but be specific in how you phrase it).
 

Phaboo

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Thank you.

How to act in order to successfully grow together as a couple?

10.1.2.6 -> 45

Interesting...
 
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diamant

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How to act in order to successfully grow together as a couple? 10.1.2.6 > 45

10.1 keep your steps simple and pure for now, 'walk forward alone in virtue and honesty'. I think this is self-explanatory. Don't take any steps towards her, keep to yourself. The line says 'no fault/blame', so perhaps stop being apologetic. You've made your case, you know you didn't have dark motives, so now you just need to put one foot in front of the other and not make any moves towards her.

10.2 a solitary man walking in a truthful open-hearted smooth manner, an omen of good fortune. The additional Xiang Zhuan text adds, 'he will not allow himself to be thrown into disorder/chaos/confusion'. So make your view on this matter solid and secure in your own mind.

10.6 says check out the steps described before. Do they predict good fortune? If yes, then complete them in the way they describe. Line 10.1 says 'no blame', and 10.2 says 'good fortune', so I'd say do as advised and for now go your own way. That means, do not attempt to patch things up with her at this point.

Hidden line 6.2 says do not argue, you can't win this argument, so back off, run, escape. Hidden line 12.6 gives hope that things will eventually get better, if you proceed in the manner described.

45 shows a social gathering. So after you've taken some considerable time alone, and when/if things start looking up with her, do not agree to meet one-to-one. Opt instead for a date in a public place.
 

Phaboo

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Thanks Diamant. Yes I will stop being apologetic and I won't accept any more blame not only because I don't deserve any at this point but also because I think it doesn't do any good to her or us as a couple either.

Now she just invited me to the birthday party of her friend. Looks like a gathering (45) but it's the 11th of this month. Isn't it too soon?

About the first two lines: are you sure that it literally means to stay alone? Treading says "treading a tiger's tail" so I have to be cautious but it doesn't tell to walk away from trouble either. Even if I'm not asking her out or anything she is going to, and in fact she already did.

What I thought about 45 and the 6th line is that it needs some time to see where this relationship leads to. First and second line to be modest and not to strive to do anything more than letting it be, going along with caution but unafraid of the results at the same time, only then we will observe the results.
 
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diamant

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@Phaboo that's what the text says 🤷‍♀️
In both lines 10.1 and 10.2, a person is shown walking alone.
Great news that she invited you to a party, that's very 45!
Refuse to argue (or meet with her) till the party. Fingers crossed for you.
 

Phaboo

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@Phaboo that's what the text says 🤷‍♀️
In both lines 10.1 and 10.2, a person is shown walking alone.
Great news that she invited you to a party, that's very 45!
Refuse to argue (or meet with her) till the party. Fingers crossed for you.
All right, thanks! I know it shows a person walking alone but I thought it referred to keeping this argument to myself and not bringing that up yet. If it literally meant to be alone I would have to refuse meeting her because she already said that she wants to see me again. And refusing might lead to arguing. But I can wait a couple of days until the party, that's for sure. I'm super busy so I don't even need to find an excuse anyway.
 
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diamant

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I take it literally. If you prefer to take it metaphorically, that's up to you.
Great that you're busy and don't need to find excuses, that should solve the issue without further arguing.
 

Trojina

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Much of this is repetitive but I will leave it in anyway


Well, a week ago I watched one. I'm not sure why I did it, I think that I felt neglected and maybe a little bit bored, sexually. We have a routine that I grow tired of,

If you are tired of the sex routine now at age 26, this is a warning sign for the relationship.

I believe that even if she is "wrong" about pornography, that doesn't matter. The thing is that as her boyfriend I must respect her values and what she believes in. I should add that she never said not to masturbate, we used to tell "I was thinking about you" as an euphemism to say that we just masturbated. It's sweet but this gave me the idea that I couldn't fantasize about anyone else, which is frustrating at some point. Of course I'm going to think about her 99% of the time but the mind just wants to wander sometimes.
Right after she went back home, I asked I Ching how to let her know that I am sorry and that I loved her. I got 62.1.6 -> 30.

You can fantasize about what you want otherwise you are living in some kind of mental/sexual straitjacket where you have zero privacy. Again if you are slightly bored of the sex routine already plus you are denying yourself the right to have free reign in your thoughts don't be too surprised if at some point in the future you lose interest in sex with her altogether or find you cannot perform.

The 62.1.6>30 looks like a picture of what happened, over exposure. You went too far (62.1.6) and overexposed yourself to scrutiny (30). I do find sometimes when asking about arguments Yi just gives a fairly clear picture of what the argument centred around.

In 62 we have a small bird trying to cross a large sky and the risk he takes is not staying close to the ground where he would be safer. Instead he soars high up into the sky, and I think this would be you putting idealism and ideology above your own simple sexual appetite. 62.1.6>30 you went too far(62.6) in your wish to be transparent (30) and it's hurt you like it hurts the little bird to fly too high


The question was about being sorry, but the answer cannot address how you are sorry if you have nothing to be sorry about. The whole issue is standing on very shaky very unreal ground and it will be so as long as your sexual appetite is regulated by Dworkin's book. That isn't feminism, it's one branch of it and it's written by a woman who actually believed all penetration is rape. It's hardly a balanced standard for a healthy sex life.


In many ways her insisting you read the very dated Dworkin is like a religious fanatic forcing a boy to read his bible each night because he masturbated over the idea of his teacher in black stockings. Do you think the bible reading can bash all images of the teacher from the boy's mind ? I don't. I think if he is very loyal to his religious community etc he will try to repress his thoughts. That won't work, they will surface. Sexual repression does not work.

But I actually do feel like it's degradating for women

So where does one draw the line ? Do sexual fantasies in your head degrade women ? If so do you have to slice those fantasies out ? If you have fantasies about women does it mean you don't have respect for women ? (rhetorical questions)

I believe that even if she is "wrong" about pornography, that doesn't matter. The thing is that as her boyfriend I must respect her values and what she believes in. I should add that she never said not to masturbate, we used to tell "I was thinking about you" as an euphemism to say that we just masturbated. It's sweet but this gave me the idea that I couldn't fantasize about anyone else, which is frustrating at some point. Of course I'm going to think about her 99% of the time but the mind just wants to wander sometimes
Mmm but what she believes in can't really dictate your private sexual relationship with your own self..

If you are in love with her then great all I'd say is if further down the line you run into sexual difficulties with her don't be too surprised nor be too quick to self blame.

Thank you.

How to act in order to successfully grow together as a couple?

10.1.2.6 -> 45

Interesting...

It is interesting in that this answer isn't about a couple but a hermit, a lone person. Taking the lines from wikiwing/Hilary

Line 1

'Plain treading going on.
No mistake.'

Line 2

'Treading the path, smooth and easy.
For hidden people, constancy brings good fortune.'

Line 6

'Observing the footsteps, blessings from the ancestors.
They come full circle: good fortune from the source.'


What's the tiger here for you ? It's treading through a dangerous situation scared of getting bitten, walking on eggshells. Line 1 is plain and simple going forward in a straight forward way. There's no complication, you are advised to make no complication. In line 2 one keeps oneself to oneself and navigates a course through danger that way. In line 6 if one has made it through to tell the tale one has succeeded.

45 is gathering together to maintain and strengthen defences.


This might be how to act to grow successfully as a couple except it's more or less telling you to keep your own counsel, keep your boundaries intact and look after your own interests and to keep hidden (line 2) you don't need to expose everything to the light (30) and it's dangerous for the little bird (62)

If you are happy with her now of course continue but I don't feel all this, what you've said and the readings, bode too well for the things you have asked about.

I don't think the 45 is the party nor are there any instructions to go/not go to it, the I Ching does not dictate in this way. I think the main take away for you from this thread is this

Yes I will stop being apologetic and I won't accept any more blame not only because I don't deserve any at this point but also because I think it doesn't do any good to her or us as a couple either.

Whatever relationship you decide to have with her hold your boundaries and the right to privacy otherwise you are vulnerable to a certain kind of bullying here.
 
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Phaboo

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The 62.1.6>30 looks like a picture of what happened, over exposure. You went too far (62.1.6) and overexposed yourself to scrutiny (30). I do find sometimes when asking about arguments Yi just gives a fairly clear picture of what the argument centred around.

In 62 we have a small bird trying to cross a large sky and the risk he takes is not staying close to the ground where he would be safer. Instead he soars high up into the sky, and I think this would be you putting idealism and ideology above your own simple sexual appetite. 62.1.6>30 you went too far in your wish to be transparent and it's hurt you like it hurts the little bird to fly too high

Very interesting. There's too much idealism on both sides. My self blaming for being not transparent, my almost religious faithfulness to her from my side, her radical femminist ideologies on her side.

She even used to ask me to practice soft bondage in the first months we've been together. It wasn't something that we practiced before with other people but she wanted to try it with me. Now she says that she's too feminist to roleplay about male dominance, something like that. It's ridiculous I think, tbh. She liked it, there was no harm in it, it didn't gave me the right to "dominate" her irl, so why restricting yourself like that? What's next? Oh right. Almost breaking up because I watched a porn.

The whole issue is standing on very shaky very unreal ground and it will be so as long as your sexual appetite is regulated by Dworkin's book. That isn't feminism, it's one branch of it and it's written by a woman who actually believed all penetration is rape. It's hardly a balanced standard for a healthy sex life.
Yes I'm already skeptical about her works but I have at least to finish the essay and doing researches before I can bring up this conversation.


Line 1 is plain and simple going forward in a straight forward way. There's no complication, you are advised to make no complication.

So basically I can't change her mind, but that shouldn't bother me.

If you are happy with her now of course continue but I don't feel all this, what you've said and the readings, bode too well for the things you have asked about.

I know it might sounds like a toxic relationship from these readings and what I've told, but she has proven to be a beautiful person so many times. I'm going to move out of town in October for the master degree and I could move with her where she is studying right now (she lived in my home town with her parents this year and a half because of the lockdown) but I decided to go to another city because there's a better opportunity for my major. She has been 100% supportive even if that is going to lead to a long distance relationship. Which is what she was afraid of since the beginning when we started last summer, when we didn't know there would have been another lockdown and ingenuely took for granted that she would have to move far from our hometown in autumn. She clearly stated not to want a long distance relationship when we started out dating. Which meant we would have broken up. Well, she actually did go for a couple of weeks before the second epidemic wave came, and we didn't break up at all. She changed her mind a month before moving and she even started dreaming about living together in the future ever since!

She is just insecure and brings up self defenses. It's not like she wants to be mean to me, although I understand I can get hurt if I don't know how to face this kind of reactions.

This is youthful folly (4). What should I do with her? 59.5 -> 4. Dissolving her worries because they are mostly due to her overwhelming emotions.

Last october before moving out, she asked I Ching what to do about us. Because she still was insecure if a long distance relationship would work, on my advice she asked I ching. She got 41.1 -> 4. Again, youthful folly. She was just worried and wanted to feel safe but she already made her mind long before asking. Same about these 3 days of reflecting alone without texting me. I think she never wanted to break up, she never really believed the things she told me while ranting, she was just mad at me.
 
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veavea

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What an extraordinary thread! I’ve got nothing useful to contribute, except just to pipe up on behalf of the apes (since none are available to contribute directly) that they don’t actually watch porn… just in case any apes were offended or felt slurred 😃
 

Trojina

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Well apes have it all out on show, no need to look at porn online or in magazines :rofl: One assumes there is less sexual frustration and complication for them though I watched a hilarious wildlife documentary recently when a female gorilla, I think, was desperately trying to get the uninterested male to notice her fantastic behind. I felt for her. The funny thing was it all looked so human, she acted not unlike any human woman in that situation. She'd walk off as if she didn't care and then sidle back in front of him.

I know it might sounds like a toxic relationship from these readings and what I've told, but she has proven to be a beautiful person so many times

I wouldn't say she was toxic it's more like young and naive, idealistic with a dash of jealousy perhaps. Also she needs to read around more widely, there's no much discourse around feminism and female sexuality, she can move on from Dworkin.


She even used to ask me to practice soft bondage in the first months we've been together. It wasn't something that we practiced before with other people but she wanted to try it with me. Now she says that she's too feminist to roleplay about male dominance, something like that. It's ridiculous I think, tbh. She liked it, there was no harm in it, it didn't gave me the right to "dominate" her irl, so why restricting yourself like that? What's next? Oh right. Almost breaking up because I watched a porn.

This is where radical feminism as espoused by Dworkin has the exact same impact on a female's expression of and enjoyment in her sexuality as patriarchy does. If patriarchy has historically sought to curtail or proscribe or confine women's own sexual desires then Dworkin does it again right here. She is now curtailing and proscribing what fantasies or play your girlfriend may now enjoy. As I recall from essay writing 30 years ago there aren't really that many sexual practices that are okay by Dworkin. It could be argued that just as patriarchal ideology invades even the private sexual relations between people 'the personal is political' and all that, so does radical feminism also curtail a woman's sexuality. Indeed it has right here. She now can now no longer enjoy soft bondage with you, that avenue of play that might have helped to keep your sex life alive has now been denied.


This is where I see the youth and naivity. If she was older and knew more about being in long term relationships she'd know sexual boredom really can be an issue. She'd know things need to open up between you sexually not close down. She'd give space to her own fantasies and yours not prohibit them. But she's not older, she's only 26 and it's not her fault she can't see this.


I believe you that she is a lovely person but I don't think the way forward for you is to follow her lead on all this because she may end up killing the sex stone dead or rather killing off yours and hers sexual desire altogether and that would be a shame. There is more to bondage than patriarchy since men enjoy it too often. Some say it has to do with the infant's experience of being held, changed, manipulated, very early autoerotic experiences where the infant is out of control of it's own body. Don't get me wrong there is some awful terrible degrading porn out there but there is likely a world of difference between that and couples using a pair of fluffy handcuffs or tying each other up.

I'd say to her that what she plays at in the bedroom isn't going to change the world for the better or for the worse in terms of female freedom of expression. What will change the world is for her keep on talking and speaking out at college, in groups of friends, on forums, everywhere. I heard on the radio a few days ago that although women are seen often as talking more than men the opposite is true in public situations. Data shows in any public group where there are men and women men take the floor more, interrupt women more and their voices are heard more and often the points they make are given more credibility than if a woman made them. I can't name the studies but the upshot was this pattern is still prevalent in business and in academia. It was found even little girls speak less in class than boys mainly because they don't want others to view them as pushy, they found speaking out meant they were disapproved of by girls and boys. So to move forward in changing society to include the female voice keeping talking is more effective than ruling out enjoyable sex games.


I have gone off topic. I forgive myself.
 

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