Trump's Karmic Debt: 25 uc and 15.3.4 to 16

[Fanofenka]

Yesterday, after watching a YouTube video of Trump's daily tarot, the readers said that Trump is part of COVID-19. We are feeling the effect of the Trump presidency. He has a lot of karmic debt to pay.

How much karmic debt does Trump have? 25 uc Without Entanglement/Innocense/The Unexpected/Sincerity/Integrity.
Is it saying that he has fallen into many traps?

How is his karmic debt affecting the US? 15.3.4 Integrity/Modesty/Humility to 16 Enthusiasm/Repose/Harmony/Contentment.
15.3 speaks of Trump being successful.
15.4 speaks of everything will work out in his favor.
16 speaks of exitement, referring to him winning.

Why is the second reading positive for Trump?

 

[Trojina]

Trump did not cause Covid nor is he 'part of Covid'. The way he deals with it is the thing to critcize but it's just fantasy to say he is part of it.

How much karmic debt does Trump have? 25 uc Without Entanglement/Innocense/The Unexpected/Sincerity/Integrity.
Is it saying that he has fallen into many traps?

No it says the opposite of that, the title of 25 is 'disentangled' one is not caught up in anything.

There's 2 ways to see this answer and both are fairly clear.

1. It really is none of your business. You don't even have any business asking about other people's karma or even your own. It needn't bother you, it's not something you're involved in evaluating, it's beyond you. If there is such a thing as karma then it is beyond human evaluation.

2. If Yi is answering directly then you have to take it that Trump really isn't entangled with this stuff called karma. I mean you can't get a less entangled answer than 25. Karma is a kind of entanglement, action that binds you to it's effects, something that you are through your actions entangled in. Now to my mind this answer calls into doubt such a thing as karma even exists or at least it calls into question that it exists on the gross level you and your tarot pedlars imagine.


It could be saying both 1 and 2 at the same time, indeed it probably is. You will never ever know anyone else's karma nor will you ever even know your own, it is beyond human understanding. Sadly the uneducated now use the word 'karma' to simply mean 'payback' but it's not like that because it isn't a points system based on limited human understanding.

The reason I say it throws doubt on your concept of karma is that if it were answering directly on your level (which it can't because neither you nor your tarot readers are in a position to know so you won't be able to understand) then one would expect trump to have karma of some kind but Yi is simply saying 'not involved'.


Whether this calls the whole notion of karma into doubt or just your understanding of it I do no tknow.

In any case how the heck would you or anyone ever know about Trump's karmic debt !? Karma is not something human beings can sit and pick apart, it's not our business. Even our own is not our business let alone other people's

How is his karmic debt affecting the US? 15.3.4 Integrity/Modesty/Humility to 16 Enthusiasm/Repose/Harmony/Contentment.
15.3 speaks of Trump being successful.
15.4 speaks of everything will work out in his favor.
16 speaks of exitement, referring to him winning.

Why is the second reading positive for Trump?

So you think the I Ching answers all your questions about other people's karmic debt and you expect, from your tiny limited human perspective, that his karma will be really really bad as compared to yours or one of these very bad tarot readers ? But you see we really don't know, can't know because it is something operating on such a vast level, vast in time and space, that you and they have no idea who or what you are as compared to Trump. If you believe in karma you believe in past lives and therefore both you and they may have committed heinous crimes in those past lives far worse than Trump's. You simply don't know. And what about the charlatans online that you watch spreading false information, who knows what the karmic debt for that is ? We don't know.

So to sit there and expect an answer displaying what you'd understand as really really bad karma is not realistic. What I am saying is that whilst we can be highly critical of Trump's policies in terms of his spiritual 'currency' we have no idea because that is up to God, the Divine Intelligence.

It doesn't make sense to ask how is his karmic debt affecting the US again that is beyond human understanding and moreover you could equally ask what the karmic debt of the US is to produce such a plonker as a president. The rest of the world wonders what kind of population this is who voted him in ?

Leaders don't elect themselves, you put him there and so there he is, the figurehead that represents the US.

The 15 could be saying he just does what he's supposed to do according to the electorate.

People who ask political questions need to understand the answers won't necessarily come on the level they were asked at.

 

[my_key]

How much karmic debt does Trump have? 25 uc

The amount of karmic debt Trump has is not specified in the answer as far as I can see.

Karmic debt relates to the lessons, that soul-wise, you want to learn in this life. It can be recognised quite simply as the repeating patterns in your life e.g. money issues, addiction, low self worth, acting selfishly etc.
The reading, it appears to me, is speaking more of the general nature of what Karmic debt is and how to reduce it.

Karmic debt is brought forwards into this lifetime as a way to disentangle yourself from past weaknesses or unhealthy / un balanced thoughts, feelings or behaviours. Paraphrasing the judgement - When a person is faced with this unhealthy pattern of behaviour in this lifetime they will be open to calamity and misfortune should they choose to go in the same direction again. There is a natural state of innocence in all things and so a wise person, like the ancient kings did, will foster stepping out alternaive directions, commensurate with this life-times' goals and nourish and grow the aspects of being that have to date been under-nourished.

How is his karmic debt affecting the US? 15.3.4 to 16

His karmic debt is impacting the US because it is being worked through in a context of Hex 16 in which his inspiring leadership is arousing the masses to follow. From Hex 15 he is learning how to become agile. I am drawn to Karcher's words that represents 15 as an animal the is 'solitary and untamable'.

15.3 - He is learning how to see things through to the end.
15.4 - He is learning that all things can be beneficial.

Perhaps, this is still a new learning for him of the balance of power and humility.Perhaps the affect he is having on the US is showing them what Integrity/Modesty/Humility isn't. In many cases, you can only learn what something is by first seeing clearly what it is not.

.......or it may be nothing like this at all.

 

[rosada]

One of the particularly galling things about Trump is how he always seems to be able to get away with everything. He himself claimed he could shoot a man on the corner of Fifth Avenue and not be charged. When asked about the Covid-19 deaths he literally said, "I take responsibility for nothing". Furthermore, although he has had multiple businesses many seem to end up bankrupt. He doesn't learn. This all sounds like what we read are the characteristics of hexagram 25. "Innocence" or "Without Entanglement": not taking responsibility and not learning and ultimately calamity. Thus perhaps the I Ching is saying that Trump's karma is the result of his refusing to accept responsibility, to learn and the result is one blunder after another and nothing he does works out well or "bears fruit".

 

[Viru10]

25uc indeed seems to point to a complete lack of karmic debt. When I conceive of karmic debt I imagine external restrictions that one has to pay off in this life based on previous lifetimes of behavior. For example if you tortured one of your employees in your previous life as a manager, they might become your boss and torture you. Or if you were a poor leader or irresponsible in a previous life, you may have to become a 'servant' in this life and work for others in menial tasks etc throughout your work life to learn what it means to be an underling and what the responsibilities of a leader really are.

All this to say the things everyone mentioned, failing upward, getting a nice million dollar loan from dad, literally being billions in debt and somehow doing just fine year after year, saying/doing whatever you want without repercussions etc. etc. Understandably from each person's perspective these things are more or less egregious. Ultimately 25uc seems incredibly apt, like there are no universal barriers and you can do whatever you want.

I think the karmic debt lies in the masses more than in him as an individual. Many people say he's a symptom rather than the cause.

 

[rosada]

Yeah, Trump by himself couldn't cause all the chaos. The real blame is on those who could have stopped him but instead enabled him.

Trump is back at the White House today seemingly unmoved by his bout of covid-19 . It appears the experience taught him nothing - still claiming the virus is no big deal and no compassion for the thousands of Americans who suffer from it with no access to drugs or healthcare. Sounds like 25.6

 

[Trojina]

But 25.6 was not the cast. Aren't you just picking out something you think fits ?

Problem is I feel like the west/the US has stolen the entire concept of karma and made it a part of every day speech whereby it means something different to what was meant by it.


People really want to think it's tit for tat/payback/getting what you deserve and that it would all be very fair in their eyes. Then they start using the term when they want vengeance on someone, when they want to see someone suffer for what they did. It's all a bit of a distance from karma as it is thought of in Hinduism for example. It's not going to look like what we think it should look like and also, most importantly it is unknowable by humans. This is something people can't seem to digest, it's a vast universal network of the ways in which actions bind one to the cycle of rebirth. It's a lot more complex than human justice.


Hence it's no use trying to make 25 means Trump's karma is very bad. It couldn't be clearer in 25uc that either it is not the business at all of the querent to ask OR that the way people want to think of Trump as caught up in karma just isn't like that. Indeed there isn't a less caught up hexagram than 25.

Clearly the fact he is 'president' isn't all down to him as an individual, the American public put him there.Trump is back at the White House today seemingly unmoved by his bout of covid-19 . It appears the experience taught him nothing - still claiming the virus is no big deal and no compassion for the thousands of Americans who suffer from it with no access to drugs or healthcare. Sounds like 25.6

Maybe he never had Covid 19 at all as has been said elsewhere. The fact that he is back at the Whitehouse makes it seem more likely to be a lie because overweight 74 year old men don't tend to just get over it like that !! Boris Johnson, much younger, needed a few weeks recuperation and when he came back he looked ill.

 

[Trojina]

Oh just watched BBC news, he's spreading false information that Covid is no worse than flu. I had to switch off....peeling off his mask as if in defiance, what a bloody insult to all those who have died and lie ill right now.

 

[IrfanK]

People really want to think it's tit for tat/payback/getting what you deserve and that it would all be very fair in their eyes. Then they start using the term when they want vengeance on someone, when they want to see someone suffer for what they did. It's all a bit of a distance from karma as it is thought of in Hinduism for example. It's not going to look like what we think it should look like and also, most importantly it is unknowable by humans. This is something people can't seem to digest, it's a vast universal network of the ways in which actions bind one to the cycle of rebirth. It's a lot more complex than human justice.

You've touched upon a pet peeve of mine. Karma really just means that actions have consequences. There ain't no angel sitting up there deciding that he may let you get away with this for a little while longer, but you sure are gonna be sorry next year. Bad actions do have bad consequences, that's why they're bad. But it doesn't necessarily mean that they are directly bad for the person who did them. Someone else could suffer.

The way people use the word now is the imposition of a primitive Christian view of divine punishment onto a much more subtle, simple Vedic concept.

PS It's interesting, in Indonesia, where Vedic concepts still hold a lot of sway, it's considered shockingly rude, an unforgivable insult, to tell someone that they are going to be punished by Karma. Much more than just threatening to kill them yourself! Of course, some Muslims do threaten other people with the prospect of divine punishment, but the more sophisticated view is that it is a great sin to preempt Allah's judgment. My former wife told me a story about a preacher in her grandmother's village who was always threatening hell fire. When he died and was buried, she said, the grass around the grave inexplicably turned black, as though it had been burnt by some supernatural fire.

 

[Trojina]

The way people use the word now is the imposition of a primitive Christian view of divine punishment onto a much more subtle, simple Vedic concept.

True. They use the word with no idea of what it really means at all. Christ denied the idea. From John 9

As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" "Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.

Bad actions do have bad consequences, that's why they're bad. But it doesn't necessarily mean that they are directly bad for the person who did them. Someone else could suffer.

Quite and the reason for that might be that the reason a person who did a bad thing was due to people who lived years before them. We can't see the chain of events. There may be a junkie robbing for food but look into her history and you might find a gravely abusive childhood that pushed her into escapism. And then you might find, if you could actually see back hundreds of years, that the grandmother and the great grandmother suffered similar. And it won't be that linear or necessarily in families either, we can't possibly know how chains of events perpetuate over thousands of years.. So yes I wish people would stop throwing the word around just like it was tit for tat and worse using it against others as if they really can see.

PS It's interesting, in Indonesia, where Vedic concepts still hold a lot of sway, it's considered shockingly rude, an unforgivable insult, to tell someone that they are going to be punished by Karma. Much more than just threatening to kill them yourself! Of course, some Muslims do threaten other people with the prospect of divine punishment, but the more sophisticated view is that it is a great sin to preempt Allah's judgment. My former wife told me a story about a preacher in her grandmother's village who was always threatening hell fire. When he died and was buried, she said, the grass around the grave inexplicably turned black, as though it had been burnt by some supernatural fire.

I agree I think it is an insult and presumptuous to suppose one knows another's karma.