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Trust problems with therapist

NemeanMagik

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How approach this problem of trust regarding D?

HEX 47.1.2>17

CONFINED/BURDENED/STUCK/CONSTRICTIONS/OPPRESSION 1.2.> FOLLOWING

1.Don't be influenced by doubt, or hope, or hopelessness, but keep an open mind. The way out will show itself at the right time.

2.Basically telling me I must still ---still!? ----wait! If I don't, I risk losing what I have so far preserved. Also it would be good to give service of some kind.

It is an obstruction in my attitude that prevents progress.

NOW, I can't help but think a) I Ching does not understand the intensity of my distress/tension
and b) I Ching does not realise HOW LONG I HAVE ALREADY BEEN 'PATIENT'! I mean since the beginning of JANUARY!

I wonder about the Confucian influence and whether that is over-emphasized. I find the guidance sometimes so frustrating it actually seems to cause ill health.....Surely enough is enough, however much I want to 'grow'?

Any other interpretations/comments welcome here.

My situation does seem to have developed in what I felt was a positive way, yet key questions remain that interfere with my feeling free enough to go forward............

Thanks for any.
 

anemos

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Hi,

It's my personal belief that if there is no trust in such setting, not much work can be done. 17 is a volunteer following- without resistance , noone pushes noones, 47, on the other hand suggests the opposite , taken it broadly. My first though ore your reading is don't keep it inside you. If you don't trust them, say it to them clear. " I don't/ can't trust you" . You says there is a resistance from you part talk about it with them.

I'm not sure if the reading says exactly be patient as not do anything about it. To built a trusting relationship needs patient . Maybe Yi refers to that. You and your therapist work together. Maybe you have tell them in some ways you don't trust them - don't know, but maybe a straightforward conversation, from an attitude that you don't complain or whining but that you need to fix that trust problem and be "present" in that relationship might help.

good luck with that.
 

Trojina

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How approach this problem of trust regarding D?

HEX 47.1.2>17

CONFINED/BURDENED/STUCK/CONSTRICTIONS/OPPRESSION 1.2.> FOLLOWING

1.Don't be influenced by doubt, or hope, or hopelessness, but keep an open mind. The way out will show itself at the right time.

2.Basically telling me I must still ---still!? ----wait! If I don't, I risk losing what I have so far preserved. Also it would be good to give service of some kind.

It is an obstruction in my attitude that prevents progress.

NOW, I can't help but think a) I Ching does not understand the intensity of my distress/tension
and b) I Ching does not realise HOW LONG I HAVE ALREADY BEEN 'PATIENT'! I mean since the beginning of JANUARY!

I wonder about the Confucian influence and whether that is over-emphasized. I find the guidance sometimes so frustrating it actually seems to cause ill health.....Surely enough is enough, however much I want to 'grow'?

Any other interpretations/comments welcome here.

My situation does seem to have developed in what I felt was a positive way, yet key questions remain that interfere with my feeling free enough to go forward............

Thanks for any.

But if I had this reading being still wouldn't even be part of the advise I'd see :confused: I think you are over using a Carol Anthony I Ching book or something.

47.1.2>17 This isn't about being still....where do you see that ?

This answer is so apt for you...it's amazing !

The 47 would be your inner oppression, your distress....how awful it all is...and what does 47.1 say ? It says you are wandering onto gloomy paths where your needs cannot be met in your own head. More often than not 47 can be a bit of a piss take. Like you think this is sooo bad, soo bad...how much badder can it get.
It isn't.

Don't dwell in gloom.

17 as relating hexagram shows there is guidance available here on an inner level...you are being led somewhere but you must not blind yourself to this by telling yourself horror stories.

47.2 you are called on to make offerings to minor officials (CPNs ?) and you need to do this in a willing spirit. You need to participate with and work with what presents itself to you.

You do of course in 47 need to draw on your own inner reserves. Even if this woman, D, were as close as she could be she could not provide all you want. You know yourself your pain is over the phantom of the relationship with her. I don't mean that disrespectfully....but you don't have access to her as you would with someone in a real voluntary relationship. She is a therapeutic substitute.

I have read critiques of therapists who in effect 'sell' their care and concern and so on. Some say it really is a false deal. To some extent it is I think. You crave the attention of a woman who is just doing her job with you.

However I do understand these feelings you speak of....but I think Yi shows in this answer that you really aren't the desperate needy creature you almost portray yourself to be, you aren't that creature you tell yourself you are. You have resources, inner and outer resources, you don't actually need this woman at all....you only believe you do and oppress yourself with it.


Some of these desperate feelings I think you might manage to push off but you have to find the will in yourself.


Nothing about being still though ...this is more of a 'buck up' reading. ;)

BTW oddly I first read the title as 'trust problems with the rapist'. I often read the word 'therapist' as 'the rapist'...weird
 

NemeanMagik

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Thanks anemos, I have told her/them that 'trust' is the issue but little effort to address it. I am not presently with the therapist and the situation is rather more complex. I am neither convinced I can trust her again, nor feel I have yet worked through the implications of that for me.
 

NemeanMagik

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Hi Trojina,
Thank you for this.

The 'still' thing. this was not 'still' in sense of 'keep still' but in sense of 'Oh my god, not more of this 'waiting' stuff.'

I seem glued to my life-long fantasy of absolutely needing someone to stick with me through all the therapy work, and not give up until we are done. The reality is no one so far has apparently been able to grasp the essential work that needs to be done, and bales out before its finished and I am left in breakdown state. It is too complicated to go into here and I cannot myself make sense of it anyway. I just feel so utterly impotent and sometimes so utterly powerful at the same time, or at different times, and my identity is impossible to know. I feel tremendously strong and tremendously weak and fragile. The therapists and psychiatrists frequently contradict each other wildly, unhelpful decisions are frequently made, and I feel/collapse in bits. I can be very personable, sociable but frequently feel totally empty inside; I feel extremely lonely and often isolated, and nurtured by the latter at times,--- desolate and suicidal in that isolation at others.
The security of having just one person, one therapist to work with me through all this feels vital, yet it is the one thing that is ever denied me.
No adequate mothering or fathering---------ever, despite all my efforts to get it. And when I give up --well, then I am just left on the Roman hill to perish, --except of course so far I haven't. Eventually, after electro convulsive therapy, anti-psychotics or whatever I re-emerge, after lesser or greater breakdowns, and then off I go again...And come back to the same dilemmas over and over...
I know therapists cannot provide ordinary relationships and yes, she did, and they do, promise far too much, but at the same time how can I ever be held unless that love approaches 'unconditionality'? But it never does, not in residential therapy, not in outpatient work, no in psychiatry, not in religious groups...nowhere..
LOVE is such a rare, rare thing yet I cannot live without it, and what many call, 'care'... say they 'care' is to me such an insipid thing, in reality. What is the point of that? It never delivers. I can do without it.
The real thing or nothing.
I suppose we then talk of something quite extraordinary. Mystical or something?
Nothing is enough.
I do not know what is of value to do in this life, this world. Every idea I have comes to a sense of futility.
Yet vision I have. Sense of mission I have.
Maybe I am just -grandiose- then? Maybe all of this is just fantasy?
Interested in your comments..or anyone's for that matter...?
 

ginnie

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I seem glued to my life-long fantasy of absolutely needing someone to stick with me through all the therapy work, and not give up until we are done. ... The security of having just one person, one therapist to work with me through all this feels vital, yet it is the one thing that is ever denied me. ... LOVE is such a rare, rare thing yet I cannot live without it ... Every idea I have comes to a sense of futility.

47.2 says to get involved in something greater than yourself, and whatever that may turn out to be, it will take your mind off what is lacking in your life. Self-help is an important concept, because there will probably never be that therapist who will go with you to the very end, as there is no end to therapy, anyway. Usually the therapist has to retire or something else happens that cuts the process of healing short. But in the meantime we have perhaps learned to love ourselves a little more and sabotage our own happiness a little less. Louis Hay used to tell people to look at themselves in a mirror and say these words: "I love you." It's not the unconditional love of someone else you really need, it's your own ever-flowing self-love.

And 47.1 says don't sit and be gloomy. To stop doing that.
 

beatpoet

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Hi.

How approach this problem of trust regarding D?

HEX 47.1.2>17


The focus of your question is on HOW TO APPROACH. Yi replies simply:

You feel drained of inner resources (like the dried up lake from the image of hex 47) and your exhaustion has led to an inner feeling of hopelessness which makes it difficult for you to know what to do (1) but you actually have everything you need to succeed in truth (meat and drink) and the Prince on high has come for you ready to work with you (therapist), and all you have to do is simply give thanks and have faith (2) and let yourself go, let go of control, be led or follow him/her back into your natural state, back into the flow of life (hex 17).

Beautiful answer. Seems like your answer is like a winged dove in the form of a therapist. Yi is saying have trust and let yourself be helped.

Best of luck to you.

beatpoet
 
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Trojina

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Beautiful answer. Seems like your answer is like a winged dove in the form of a therapist. Yi is saying have trust and let yourself be helped.

you obviously haven't read the back story. The therapist is an NHS therapist in the UK. She is not currently available to NM . That is the point. She won't/can't work with NM right now. This isn't just a therapist that you pay....it is part of our National Health System. Anyway you need to read the back story..the lack of trust is there because therapist won't see NM.
 

beatpoet

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you obviously haven't read the back story. The therapist is an NHS therapist in the UK. She is not currently available to NM . That is the point. She won't/can't work with NM right now. This isn't just a therapist that you pay....it is part of our National Health System. Anyway you need to read the back story..the lack of trust is there because therapist won't see NM.

I read the thread (funny there is no mention of the NHS in mine and am familiar with the NHS).

The question was how to approach the trust issue related to D. Yi says: by having faith and following (following through?) that D will help NM.

Unavailability is not indicated in Yi's answer as an obstacle to trust, rather it seems that feelings of hopelessness, exhaustion and lack of faith are.

beatpoet
 
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Trojina

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beatpoet

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I mean if you read the numerous previous threads by NM you will learn that the therapist is an NHS therapist and is currently not available to her. Trust me, I do know. She has already confirmed this is the case a number of times. Wisewoman is another name NM used ...some back story http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?18335-Will-D-return-to-me

Thank you.

I will read it. As a further comment before reading it, my thought was that the therapist may be using a strategy of non participation as a part of the therapeutic process or that there may be a benefit to NM by having this break in the process.

Interestingly, Wilhelm's description of line 3 supports this thought:


A prince- in ancient China princes wore scarlet knee bands- is in search of able helpers. But there are still obstructions to be overcome. Therefore it is important to meet these obstructions in the visible realm by offerings and prayer. To set forth without being prepared would be disastrous though not morally wrong. Here a disagreeable situation must be overcome by patience of spirit.


beatpoet
 

NemeanMagik

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Thank you.

I will read it. As a further comment before reading it, my thought was that the therapist may be using a strategy of non participation as a part of the therapeutic process or that there may be a benefit to NM by having this break in the process.

Interestingly, Wilhelm's description of line 3 supports this thought:


A prince- in ancient China princes wore scarlet knee bands- is in search of able helpers. But there are still obstructions to be overcome. Therefore it is important to meet these obstructions in the visible realm by offerings and prayer. To set forth without being prepared would be disastrous though not morally wrong. Here a disagreeable situation must be overcome by patience of spirit.


beatpoet

Beatpoet that sounds about right.....trouble is the feelings of abandonment have led to feeling betrayed, or the obsessive need to establish whether I have been betrayed. I have experience terrible DREAD for months because of this, yet the therapist still vows allegiance but no promises for further work.

I am doing my best to work with this, but it is really really overwhelmingly painful and distressing........ I still cannot be sure of the sense of it.
 

NemeanMagik

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This seems spot on.

I am working with this winged dove as best as I can but at the same time negotiating chasm after chasm in relation to D. because of this 'human' trust thing. But personality is split from lack of 'human' nurture and I feel this basic input as a child never happened on human level, and the only way I survived at all was from a very lonely spiritual path and battle that made me feel separate and alienated from humankind. My desperate search has been to have that human element integrated. But it never happens. Always, in significant relationships I end up in a situation of betrayal and have to pull myself up by my own boot straps, never being able to feel comfortable with human intimacy as I can never trust, yet desperately needing. Transpersonal experiences have been all that has kept me ----------ALIVE, and only those it seems. Let down after let down, and no moderation or equality.
 

beatpoet

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NM,

I had written a post in response to Trojina's last post. But I am so glad you posted, and I have ditched the rest.

I did read the previous posts from the link provided out of due diligence, but they are immaterial to this particular query. I will explain why...

Isn't the reason why you, why we all, consult the Yi is to move from emotional confusion to clarity? To move away from emotions like your sense of betrayal to get to a meaningful solution?

Your previous thread was an emotional response to the possibility of the permanent retreat of D. By the time you started this thread, you had gotten past the shock of that possibility (progress) and wanted help from Yi on: "How approach this problem of trust regarding D?" You felt you needed an APPROACH to your "problem" of trust.

In my view, you got a very sweet, love letter from Yi that would be written something like this:

Dear NM, I am so glad you asked me for my advice! Here is what I want to tell you: Though you are feeling full of doubt, hopelessness, though you are feeling weary with life (47), feeling overwhelmed and that nothing ever goes your way (1), the right approach to the problem of trust with D, is to surrender control (17) and to believe that all things are working for your good, even this seeming obstacle with D. (3). That by having faith, you can and will overcome all obstacles (3) and that by recognizing that if a Higher Power sent D's presence to you (3), that D's absence would also be a part of the plan for you. Have faith that you be delivered from your fear/exhaustion of life by renewing your faith in its natural rhythm. Trust the flow of life! (17). Let the way be shown to you (17). Please NM, be patient(3) and trust the process (17. Let things unfold--don't fear as they do-- as you are being led by not only D, but by life itself. (17, 3).

I think really you are very well taken care of. The whole Universe seems to be conspiring to help you, through you. Your posts reveal your evolution of thought and show, to me at least, a very capable human being with great sensitivity and a lot of natural will to face life.

Don't give up and if anything see Yi as a person who won't leave you. Truth is, though, NM, you have you, and you are more than enough. This can be seen from your posts.

Best of luck to you always.

beatpoet
 
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ginnie

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My desperate search has been to have that human element integrated. But it never happens.

You yourself are a human being. It matters a lot how we talk to ourselves, our self-talk. We mustn't always be thinking about and verbalizing to ourselves what we don't have. By doing that, we make ourselves unhappy.

Happy is something we choose to be, each day. (Happy does not come to us through relationships.)
 
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Trojina

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This seems spot on.

I am working with this winged dove as best as I can but at the same time negotiating chasm after chasm in relation to D. because of this 'human' trust thing. But personality is split from lack of 'human' nurture and I feel this basic input as a child never happened on human level, and the only way I survived at all was from a very lonely spiritual path and battle that made me feel separate and alienated from humankind. My desperate search has been to have that human element integrated. But it never happens. Always, in significant relationships I end up in a situation of betrayal and have to pull myself up by my own boot straps, never being able to feel comfortable with human intimacy as I can never trust, yet desperately needing. Transpersonal experiences have been all that has kept me ----------ALIVE, and only those it seems. Let down after let down, and no moderation or equality.

What Ginnie said here is important


You yourself are a human being, even when you are feeling isolated. It matters a lot how we talk to ourselves, our self-talk. We mustn't always be thinking about and verbalizing to ourselves what we don't have.


You say at various times you are isolated and so on and have always been betrayed yet you have a boyfriend don't you....and you are part of this community. If you look around you in everyday life you will see many who feel isolated who are in a worse position than you. I know that doesn't always help much when you feel in pain but I do think it helps overall to count blessings. I'm not suggesting this way of thinking can solve all your mental health issues...but it might help just a tad surely ?


Probably this comment belongs on the latest thread where we were sort of going in that direction weren't we...which is why I linked........

Well the reason I linked to the latest thread is that in a strange way I think the forum has sort of journeyed collectively with you....:) I'll go post it there
 

quippin

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Hello,

I am Jerelyn (quippin) on here. I have not responded to anything on Online Clarity before but only diligently read and studied the IChing. I have, for a good number of years, meditated and practiced Taoism.

I rarely take clients anymore but I spent much of my adult life as a family mental health therapist. Your lines have touched my heart and soul. I wish I could give you a hug but just know I send you love. I wished that I had been your therapist or even your Mother and given you the assurance I would not desert you. As I am a Symbolic Experiential therapist, I allow myself to get emotionally and spiritually involved with my clients.

There are therapists that do not practice my discipline that, like me, get involved. I feel with my entire being that we are worthy of unconditional love from other humans. My Mother loved me that way. I was fortunate and have always longed for that depth of devotion from a man. I don't know why that has not happened but it feels like a loss. Maybe someday. Maybe not.

Best regards, Jerelyn
 

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