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Turn the Other Cheek? 21.1 -> 35

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So I'm seeing all these videos of pretty violent cops.
I dunno it seems like now it's going to be illegal to take any pictures when cops are working? I hear of cops going insane, recently a cop in my municipal went to someone's house and shot and killed their dog and a young man after his mother called the cops on him...

Anyway I asked:

Any advice or comments in dealing with violent or abusive cops or officials?

Hexagram 21.1 -> 35.

Seems to advise turning the other cheek. 21 seems to suggest allowing the cops to do their business, perhaps suggesting the possibility of going to court in the event of abuse.

I dunno, what do you all think?
 
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anemos

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Bradford's 21.1 , I think, describes those incidences. Those of the cops ignore that "to own two feet is not the licence to trespass" He also says in the same commentaries " Few have never been first time offenders, although many have never been caught"

I wouldn't read it as turn the other cheek. Maybe 35 means that by using every opportunity to make it "know" could lead to some restriction of those incidences.
 

bradford

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Common sense says to not overstep, particularly while it's happening.
I've encountered a few instances where I've registered complaints with their superiors, even threatened criminal charges. It didn't always work because it's a brotherhood and there is denial. That's why in the cities you take it to internal affairs.
 
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Thanks all. I'm wondering if it's not suggesting even fighting back. That is if your life is in danger. To use force to protect yourself. 21 means using force.

http://www.psychic-revelation.com/reference/i_l/i_ching/hexagram21.html

Line 1:

lowest line
He wears fetters that cover his feet.
This averts harm.

Line 1:
"A deviation occurs. It is punished. Social Balance must be maintained."

Thomas Cleary

Line 1:

restraints stopping you in your track mean that you do not act.

http://astro-centr.net/divination.html?przd=iching&id=21

says: When you are punished, realize that the punishment was just.

Is this what 21 is saying? I dunno. I've gotten 21 in many situations... I don't think it means you deserve to be punished...

Anyhow common sense says if someone is violently maiming you... you should probably not allow that? Right? I mean if this kid is now dead. What good did it do that he followed the law? Sure it's hard to outrun the city police department. But really what kind of person allows themselves to be violently mutilated?
 
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bradford

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You might remember that the Yijing was written to instruct the ruling class, particularly the King. The images in 21, then, concern the meting out of punishment, the execution of justice.
 
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I read it as, the best way to progress with an aggressive cop is to not protest too much. When a cop cuffs you, or tells you to 'stand over there', it's best to be cool about it. Their concern is to get home safe that night, and what may seem 'violent or abusive' may be the result of someone who escalates the tension. Yielding to foot stocks is the best way to reckon with it, because there's very little chance of the suspect's use of force making it anything but worse. Keep resisting and it gets worse, quickly. This is at the very beginning. Perhaps you're pulled over for a lights violation, while you're worried they might find something you'd rather they not, so right there the level of intensity is escalating. A cop picks up on this kind of thing, and they're not trained to be councilors as much as enforcers. You need to take legitimate grievances over their head, as Brad's said, and your best initial action to their restraint is no resistance. Worse thing to do is to amp them up with a bad 'tude. Line 1 is in the position of minimal restraint, which is linked to minimal resistance and escalation. Then progress can be made from there.
 

rosada

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I like Bruce's take on 21.1 for How to deal with violent cops - accept the restraint and calm down. Not saying turn the other cheek, forgiveness, blah, blah blah, just that 21.1 is BEFORE Biting through, and thus not appropriate to try to bite through restraints at that first moment. Perhaps this was the problem in the incident you mention here. Perhaps the fellow did not calm down when the police first told him he was under arrest and thus everything escalated. A second question might be appropriate along the lines of "How should one deal with rogue cops after the initial threat of danger is past?"

Meanwhile I've started putting together a collection of quotes and proverbs for each of the lines. For 21.1 I have, "Death is just nature's way of telling you to slow down."

rosada
 
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Thanks all. It's sort of the way I also took it.

I may do a follow up question to rosanda's suggestion.
 
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OK so I decided to follow up with another question

The SAME question in fact.

I wanted to cast another oracle to get some better perspective on it.

So I asked:

Please comment on what to do in a situation of abusive cops or officials?

55 Unchanging.

The two trigrams are the same, but their positions are opposite from before.

The image talks of carrying out punishments and deciding lawsuits just like 21. Other than that there are other meanings... swiftness is also implied here by the attribute of 55 being a climax period that is not long lasting.

Now a squeeky noodle boy flake may think differently... But what I these two readings are doing for me Is giving me some procedures to dealing with the situation in varying degrees of force.

Both imply justice being carried out and FORCE being put into motion. So here the Yijing is favoring the use of force no doubt about it. The question here to debate is: WHO to have the force done upon?

Well, In a perfect world 21 would mean the police is not the criminal, but the person he is pursuing IS. Thus force is performed to stay the criminal and he is brought to justice.

But 21 does not make that distinction. It doesn't say blindly follow the law to the detriment of your family, your own life or others, becuase some scumbag is in a uniform and holds a official badge. It says the SINNER is to be checked before he is to intact permanent damage. (21.1)

Also 21 doesn't always mean a police man. It can symbolize any kind of force used to remove a bad influence. just FYI. It actually means biting. A bite. Something a dog does when provoked too far. A natural consequence.

It's a archetype of the cosmos not a social construct of civilization.

Finally 55 just turns the situation on it's head and say punishment an criminal lawsuits are to be carried out. That is do whatever it takes to stay the criminal (police or official violating your rights or being abusive) and then proceed to press charges.

Now if it was telling me to turn the other cheek let the TSA stick their hands down my pants and abuse me, I think I would have gotten 36.5 or maybe 23. But this is not what I got.

So I think my interpretation is sound. :bows:
 
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sooo

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55 illustrates my point. Maximum resistance, maximum restraint. You WILL be taken down iffin you choose to fight.

Now, if you're speaking in terms of long lasting ideals, then, as has been said twice before, you need to take it to a higher authority than the ones you're dealing with, if you have a legitimate grievance. But fighting them on their terms is a no win. You'll get the maximum allowed by law.
 
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Look, I'm not talking about raising up the intensity. Picking a fight or giving a cop a hard time.

I'm talking about criminal cops. What advantage would it be to cooperate with a criminal? If the guy is a rampant murderer or rapist (which cops have been known to do) you cannot sit there and allow yourself to be crippled... watch your family or others be abused and brutalized.

If he is going to kill you, how are you going to stand there and comply and expect to win?

as has been said twice before, you need to take it to a higher authority than the ones you're dealing with, if you have a legitimate grievance.

Did not see anyone say take it to a higher authority... but thanks for that idea in interpretation.

... oh you probably meant a higher worldly authority... I was thinking a different kind of higher authority by your suggestion.
 
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U

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Well I did one more so maybe your right Sooo...

any further comments to me on dealing with a situation confronting a criminal cop?

51.2.3 -> 34

Line 2: resistance is contrary to the movement of the time.

Line 3: The individual overlooks all opportunities for action and mutely lets fate take its course. But if he allows the shocks of fate to induce movement within his mind, he will overcome these external blows with little effort.

34 is of course not treading upon paths that don't please the Matrix. lol...

right and justice united with great power, perhaps suggests pressing charges.

So line 3 suggests a kind of response, but Wilhelm mentions using the mind to overcome external blows... Hm.. would be an interesting kind of yoga if taken literally.
 
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sooo

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Way I see it, a criminal is a criminal, whether they're a cop or school teacher.

It's difficult to know exactly what you mean by criminal cop, other than a cop who is guilty of committing felonies, in which case they need to be legally apprehended and tried, same as any other criminal. The procedure doesn't change. Going to a higher authority was mentioned by Brad and myself on another of your threads relating to the same or similar matter, but Brad added that they tend to stick together, so the case brought against one such cop needs to be strong.

I've watched “Police Women of Broward County” series" a few times, and unlike the article you've linked to writes, I do not see these female officers nor the Learning Channel as an "apparent attempt to promote police brutality". I've not witnessed one criminal act or brutality, nor do anything that isn't and hasn't been standard operating procedure. Tough? Of course. They have to be in order to deal with what they deal with every day.

But if a cop does go outside the correct limits, they should be prosecuted, and reported to internal affairs. In a real such case, 55 could support that.

A lot isn't black or white from either side. If a cop tasers a resisting perp, and the perp dies of a heart attack, the question becomes one of, did the force used to detain the perp equal the degree of resistance or hostility from the perp? Same for any other use of force: was it justifiable in that given case? If so, the cop's actions were not criminal. If they went too far in any given case, they are to be held accountable. A cop must justify every round fired in a fire-fight, and that includes the safety of bystanders.

With all the cell phone cameras roaming about these days, you can believe cops know their actions can be easily captured as evidence of brutality.

I've known a lot of cops, have ridden with them, firearms trained with them, had heart-to-heart conversations with them. Their main concern is coming home to their family in one piece, and in the every day world they live in, that's an accomplishment each day. They're no different than anyone else that way. Can they get out of line, or go overboard? Yes, and they should be held accountable if they do.

If you're talking about the bigger picture of the legal enforcement system, that can rightfully always be debated, and it is.
 
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Line 3:

Thunder is everywhere, driving one to distraction. Acting impetuously now will bring no misfortune.

When one is overwhelmed by shock, it is easy to lose one’s presence of mind. But there are times when it is wise to act upon the spur of the moment. This is one of those times. Even though the act of impetuosity may bring little advantage, it will certainly do no harm.

http://www.compassionatedragon.com/hexa51.html

This is what I thought. If the guy is a criminal nazi, I think this line suggests taking action against the official. If you can perhaps restrain him and wait for his brotherhood to arrive, then one may be better off.
 

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