Clarity,
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PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
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Harmen, thank you for digging into this. When I asked, I didn't know it would be so complicated.
And if I use that to find the meaning of the name of H14, as a general meaning for the complete hexagram, I would translate it as 'great achievements'.
Harmen
And if I use that to find the meaning of the name of H14, as a general meaning for the complete hexagram, I would translate it as 'great achievements'.
And I am a bit jealous - but also very very thankful - of those of you who do delve deep into the language and history.I'm always slightly jealous of people who think they can translate the Zhouyi without any knowledge of its language and its history, or the structure of early Chinese texts in general, simply by copy & paste characters in (often modern) online Chinese dictionaries. Ignorance is bliss ...
And 'kerfuffle' - derived from the Chinese combined character (found on both on bronzes and oracle bone castings) which means 'a three-legged turtle whose top and bottom shells are interchangeable' - or it means 'ignorance is bliss'.
Yes, sorry, my attempt at humor - it does mean 'commotion or fuss, especially one caused by conflicting views' or 'a state of noisy, confused activity' and as far as I know it only means these things, and not 'ke - fei - lu' or some such silliness.Huh. Maybe there are two "kerfuffles"? I always thought it meant "a fuss."
But it isn't great achievements because most of the time when one casts 14 it is not about great achievements. I've yet to see a 14 cast that meant 'great achievements' I'd think much more 42 or 35 for that.
So I can't argue about it in terms of translation but in terms of meaning I think 'Great Possession' is better.
Many have commented on how often they cast 14 when they feel they have nothing at all, when they feel poor. Often this cast shows actually you do 'have' a great deal but 'great achievements' that doesn't work for me because I don't think 14 is very much about achievements and unless you are someone who's life is full of 'great achievements' then it's meaning is limited whereas 'Great Possession' is so much more inclusive of ways of having.
You are letting your experience with the oracle decide what the name of the hexagram means to you and I understand that. I wonder though, might it be possible that you never had a 14 cast that meant 'great achievements' to you because you didn't know that 'great achievements' might be a possible valid translation of the name?
"From the sun did I learn this, when it goeth down, the exuberant one: gold doth it then pour into the sea, out of inexhaustible riches, - So that the poorest fisherman roweth even with golden oars ! For this did I once see , and did not tire of weeping in beholding it."
Isn't it possible that H14 means 'Great Possession' to you because the translations that you value say that the name means 'great possession'? Otherwise said, would H14 still mean 'great possession' to you if you used a translation that does not translate the name as such (like for instance Richard Rutt or Alfred Huang). Experience with the oracle alone cannot tell you what the name of a hexagram means, at least not in a general sense that should work for every user of the book.
Your statement "But it isn't great achievements because most of the time when one casts 14 it is not about great achievements" might be true for you but might not necessarily be true for other users of the book. For me H14 can be about 'great achievements', and I also see it as (part of) a valid answer to the question that iams girl asked to the Yi, about the underlying principles of the Yijing.
It might be a better fit for you considering your experience with the oracle. My experience has taught me that the actual translation of the name, or any other part of the hexagram does not really matter, but what does matter is how I approach it. If 'peanut butter' would have been a valid translation of the name of H14 I am able to make that useful in the practice of divination as well, just as 'great possession' or 'great achievements'. But my quick research has taught me (so far) that 'great achievements' might be a valid translation of 大有. So I will stick to that until I have good reasons to change my mind.
I find that interesting because you say that the user does not experience his situation as 'great possession' ('they feel poor') but according to you the Yi tells him/her that there is actually 'great possession' . Likewise I could say that the user does not experience 'great achievements' but the Yi could tell him/her that there are 'great achievements'. (It seems to me that it all boils down to perspective.) Just as your life does not have to be full of 'great possessions' to make this hexagram meaningful you could also say that your life does not have to be full of 'great achievements' to make use of this possible meaning of the name.
What is important and relevant to me though is that (as far as I can see) there are no texts where 大有 means 'great possession' while we do find texts that use the phrase as a reference to great achievements or great deeds.
For me H14 can be about 'great achievements', and I also see it as (part of) a valid answer to the question that iams girl asked to the Yi, about the underlying principles of the Yijing.
Duration is a state whose movement is not worn down by hindrances. It is
not a state of rest, for mere standstill is regression. Duration is rather the self-
contained and therefore self-renewing movement of an organized, firmly
integrated whole [1], taking place in accordance with immutable laws [2] and
beginning anew at every ending. The end is reached by an inward
movement, by inhalation, systole, contraction, and this movement turns into
a new beginning, in which the movement is directed outward, in exhalation,
diastole, expansion. [3]
Heavenly bodies exemplify duration. They move in their fixed orbits [4], and
because of this their light-giving power endures. The seasons of the year
follow a fixed law of change and transformation [5], hence can produce effects
that endure.
So likewise the dedicated man embodies an enduring meaning in his way
of life, and thereby the world is formed. In that which gives things their
duration, we can come to understand the nature of all beings in heaven and
on earth. [6]
Thunder rolls, and the wind blows; both are examples of extreme mobility
and so are seemingly the very opposite of duration, but the laws governing
their appearance and subsidence, their coming and going, endure. In the same
way the independence of the superior man is not based on rigidity and
immobility of character. He always keeps abreast of the time and changes
with it. [7] What endures is the unswerving directive, the inner law of his
being, which determines all his actions.
Hilary says 'Great possessions gained' and although that follows the Chinese sentence nicely it does not seem right to me because to my knowledge the verb was not put at the end of the sentence. Wilhelm translates 大有得 as 'He achieves great things' but that doesn't sound right to me either - in order to say that we would have to change the sentence to a standard Subject-Verb-Object structure (with the subject missing but being implied): 得大有 '(he) obtains/achieves great things'. In the sentence of H16.4 得, the verb is at the end which changes the meaning. If we keep the standard SVO pattern then 大 is the subject, 有 is the verb, and 得 the object: '(the) great will have achievement' or something like that. And if I use that to find the meaning of the name of H14, as a general meaning for the complete hexagram, I would translate it as 'great achievements'.
andI'm gradually working my way through 10 now so everything I say about 14 at this point is preliminary.
my quick research has taught me (so far) that 'great achievements' might be a valid translation of 大有. So I will stick to that until I have good reasons to change my mind.
Possibly but 'achievements' isn't a great word in English for 14 IMO unless it's specified in what sense you mean it and if you had to explain how you meant the word you may as well use a better word. 'Achievements' tends to refer to actual rewards/gains of status or power, qualifications gained, career moves, changes made for the better and acknowledged by others.
I think of 14 as blessings, all that we have all that is gifted us. In English 'achievements' is quite a narrow word IMO given it is generally something recognised by others. There can be personal achievements of course but we don't speak of our emotional or spiritual or personal lives in terms of 'achievements'. We don't measure our inner wealth in terms of achievements.
It is not an achievement to blessed with sight or blessed with the sun it is simply wealth we have. We don't earn these riches nor achieve them they are freely gifted to us.
Achievements are those things that you attain for yourself . Would you want to make the name of 14 limited only to those things one attains for oneself through merit or work ? 14 is far more than that isn't it ?
14 could mean great achievements as one aspect of it's meaning but it does not cover all the having, the blessing and gifts of 14.
I think it's a word it's quite narrowly in English. For example someone might suffer a bereavement and cope very bravely and they might do very well but this is not generally referred to as an achievement. Someone might possess great skill or great beauty but we don't call that an achievement but a gift, a blessing. If you call it 'great achievement' then you take away the whole generous free gifting giving fullness of the hexagram, you're narrowing it down to something someone earned. But you do not always have to earn the wealth in 14. We do not earn or achieve the sun we are gifted with it.
If you believe 14 to be called 'Great achievements' do you also think the hexagram is about earning those achievements ? You see all achievements have to be earned that is the nature of them. Blessings and gifts and havings of all kinds do not have to be earned. I mean sure at times 14 might refer to an earned wealth but it isn't always earned is it ? There's nothing written for the hexagram about earning is there ?
Would you have any more information on the actual character for "achievement" that might help broaden the scope of it's meaning?
I have already been cloned twice and I am not going to do it again.(and he has so far resisted all pleas to clone himself, or to go without sleep).
I have already been cloned twice and I am not going to do it again.
(I'm a triplet.)
You think of 14 as blessings, all that we have, all that is gifted us. Which is a really great interpretation of 14. I try to think, how would this have worked in early China? Blessings and 'what is gifted us' came from a source, like the ancestors, or spirits, gods. But they didn't give away blessings etc. for free: only when you had shown yourself worthy by doing certain deeds or having accomplished certain tasks you were blessed or given rewards. In other words, to me blessings & rewards are connected to achievements and this is what H14 might be about: certain prerequisites or attitudes that are necessary to get what is given at the end of the hexagram, at the 6th line.
...all of which I find great associations for H14, although I don't see 'achievements' as something that should always be ackowledged by others. That I am able to read Chinese Yi related texts after more than 30 years of studying the book might seem stupid to some ("it took you 30 years!?") but I see it as a personal achievement. In any way I don't see anything bad in the word 'achievement'.
To me this sounds like a Western (and modern) perspective of the word 'achievement': in (early, ancient and modern) China 'achievements' are very important, your whole life was considered a list of achievements (and failures), and when you died your achievements were engraved on your tomb stone. If achievements were important in early China it doesn't strike me as odd that a hexagram would talk about it.
You think of 14 as blessings, all that we have, all that is gifted us. Which is a really great interpretation of 14. I try to think, how would this have worked in early China? Blessings and 'what is gifted us' came from a source, like the ancestors, or spirits, gods. But they didn't give away blessings etc. for free: only when you had shown yourself worthy by doing certain deeds or having accomplished certain tasks you were blessed or given rewards. In other words, to me blessings & rewards are connected to achievements and this is what H14 might be about: certain prerequisites or attitudes that are necessary to get what is given at the end of the hexagram, at the 6th line.
The flowers of the cherry-tree,
Are they not truly splendid ?
Of men that now are,
None equals a brother.
You say, "we don't speak of our emotional or spiritual or personal lives in terms of 'achievements'", but that doesn't hold true for me. I consider every step towards positive progress an achievement, every decision that I make for the better is an achievement to me and I am not afraid to see them as that as I have no negative connection with that word whatsoever.
Which might be the reason why I don't connect these things to H14, because I don't see them as 'great possessions', nor do I see them as 'achievements'. But I can understand that these are your personal associations with H14 based on your experience with the oracle.
To me the concept of 'achievements' is broader than 'those things one attains for oneself through merit or work'. If I am able to step out of my comfort zone, if I am able to see a situation from another person's perspective, if I can step away from automatic prejudice - I consider all of these 'achievements'. Not achievements in the sense of 'look how good I am', but as stepping stones that have taught me something valuable and meaningful.
In other words, I don't see the idea of 'great achievements' as a limitation of the meaning of H14, far from it. It opens up another field of meanings, that's all.
The idea of blessings being bestowed and having to show worthiness through thoughts or deeds to attain an associated reward makes a sensible context for a lot of the discussions in this thread. In the light of this, the Possessions v Achievements situation reminds me of the good old spiritual maxim " We already are what we want to become." Perhaps in this context we could say 'have' rather than 'are'..... or even 'we already possess what we want to achieve'.You think of 14 as blessings, all that we have, all that is gifted us. Which is a really great interpretation of 14. I try to think, how would this have worked in early China? Blessings and 'what is gifted us' came from a source, like the ancestors, or spirits, gods. But they didn't give away blessings etc. for free: only when you had shown yourself worthy by doing certain deeds or having accomplished certain tasks you were blessed or given rewards. In other words, to me blessings & rewards are connected to achievements and this is what H14 might be about: certain prerequisites or attitudes that are necessary to get what is given at the end of the hexagram, at the 6th line.
Welcome Marty. The idea of 'underlying principles' was put forth by one person here, so I suggest you look back through the posts to find out what they meant by that term. Another person, Iams Girl, decided to ask the Yi about these principles and that's what started this thread.martyjones said:... Are there principles or not. Where would I find them laid out in the I Ching.
I'm always slightly jealous of people who think they can translate the Zhouyi without any knowledge of its language and its history, or the structure of early Chinese texts in general, simply by copy & paste characters in (often modern) online Chinese dictionaries.
Harmen, what do you think of Gregory Richter’s translation?
And have you seen The Basic Yi Jing, Oracle of Change by Dany Chin and Budhy Chen?
No, I don't think I will do that. I don't see any value in a word-for-word rendition alongside the actual translation.I always thought that if I made my own “translation” it would follow this kind of format, a word-for-word interlinear-type translation followed by one in natural English which I would hope nailed the meaning. But of course it would be one of those copy and paste translations because I do not know any Chinese; I would basically be putting my own spin on Richter, which I sort of do in my head as it is.
When you publish your translation, do you think you might do it in this kind of double format? Just curious about what you think of the concept. And hoping that it is what you do. Together with all your word and grammar commentary.
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).