Understanding 1.4

[Zimbali]

九四 或躍在淵。无咎。

There are great many mouths to divide with music
Possibly, radically, with halberd, lance and spear
Skip, jump and frolic, be alive,
Locate yourself somewhere, in a leading part of the empire
Be at, stay at the
Gulf, the abyss, the edge, bubble up and gush forth
Do not dance, prance, brandish and posture;
And therefore avoid misfortune

I think this is advice to the junzi [whose primary interest is ease of prosperity "like reaping grain with a sharp knife" progressing smoothly], to position him/herself at the cutting edge, but trade nimbly and enjoy, but don't go overboard, rather acting with some restraint, and thus mastering exploiting the situation.

 

[sooo]

If I may ask, Zimbali, from where do you find these gentlemanly restraints in 1.4? From what translation or related commentary? Everything I read is contrary to these restraints and reserve.

From LiSe:
Somehow dancing in the abyss. Without fault.
To find new ideas, dare to dance in the abyss and to relinquish certainty. Inspiration isn't found within fixed rules, old habits or formalities. Creativity isn't making something happen, it is allowing it to happen through you and the tools you work with.

From Bradford:
Somehow to dance across the deep
With no mistakes
His commentary does not permit copy/pasting, and I'm too lazy at the moment to transcribe it, but it's easily downloaded. It's quite adventurous and not for the faint of heart, nor the timid, nor the reserved.

From Wilhelm:
Wavering flight over the depths.
No blame.
A place of transition has been reached, and free choice can enter in. A twofold possibility is presented to the great man: he can soar to the heights and play an important part in the world, or he can withdraw into solitude and develop himself. He can go the way of the hero or that of the holy sage who seeks seclusion. There is no general law of his being. If the individual acts consistently and is true to himself, he will find the way that is appropriate for him. This way is right for him and without blame.
(As one who has chosen the way of solitude, I can say, neither is it for the weak or insecure. It is ones own dragons one must live and leap with, and they are neither puppies nor kittens.)

So from where do you find, or from what do you draw your inspiration for your safe approach to the dragon's abyss, these water wings to swim in the shallow end of the pool? 1.4 does not speak of avoiding misfortune, it speaks of finding fortune through dancing across the abyss. Again, it seems, we are confronted by this power of faith to fly. A young dragon must leave the safety of his or her nest sometime.

 

[Zimbali]

Soooo,

I parsed myself, after going thru the range of possible meanings and etymology.

I shall post my working paper later tonight, as its on my computer at home. I should appreciate your views.

However, for me, I am considering the abyss as "being on the edge" as is common parlance today.

Secondly junzi in my view is less enlighten person, and more person seeking to obtain benefit "like reaping grain with a sharp knife".

I think Victorian era translations have good reason for the manner in which they are presented. However my conjecture is that a number of fraternal organisations had differing interpretations, such as is the nature of such bodies.

My personal view regarding Bradford is that his gloss is more 1970's left-wing hippy [and Bradford I mean that with respect]. However the context of a junzi in say 100BCE might have been from a differing preservative.

So, I'm thinking more of a Homer's Agamemnon gloss. I think a lot of the translations are debatable.

Further I think that practically speaking Yijing 3,000 years ago was a power tool, in the domain of high level members of society. Those type of people were not pussy footing around.....rather when they ran out of food they started eating other people....at least some of them...

Thus as controversial as it might be I am working on gives some revised "glosses" from a perspective that I think is consistent with the powers behind the throne....who wrote....."When the emperor is at the boundary he is not in power", meaning "we are"....Yijing is a book about personal gain, but I doubt in the manner and context of some of the translations we read today....

....."who holds the the meat?" seems to me to come from differing contextual origin, IMHO.

I am case there will be no harm in discussing such between friends.

Perhaps for some, that have strong beliefs that might be offended by different perspectives, it might be time to sign off this thread.

I think this is a good starting point for a complete rethink on the literal meaning.....

 

[sooo]

Interesting perspective, Zimbali. Personally, I seldom find literal meaning in the IC, and view it primarily as a book of metaphor, from which it is up to us to assign the literal meaning which fits our question or circumstance. I mean, I've only actually flown in dreams, and there it is also symbolic and a metaphor, usually meaning exercising a kind of freedom, fueled either by being 'awake' or lucid in the dream, but still requiring that leap of faith, or at least a lot of guts.

I wouldn't worry about offending anyone here though. You seem to be quite a gentleman, even if your spin on things is different from anyone I've read here in the last decade or so, and there have been some very different personalities and perspectives. To my knowledge, no one has yet jumped off a cliff into the abyss because others have disagreed, and that includes myself. The only thing is that when someone exerts a radically different view of the IC, and they pose it as "this is what it means", "this is how it is", they're likely to not be taken seriously after awhile, and they are bound to raise criticism here and there, or at least have their notions challenged, which is fair.

I personally enjoy reading your views, but I usually scratch my head and wonder where the devil you come up with them. But then, I too am an old 60's/70's hippy curmudgeon, though I pale next to Bradford in being a stickler for remaining faithful to the Yi's authors' original intended meanings. You really do most often seem to be writing your own book and oracle, not even your own Yijing. If you wish to write all literal meanings, rather than symbols and metaphor, I can not even imagine how many volumes that might take.

 

[Zimbali]

Sooo,

Here's to the 1960/70's.....

九
Nine
an indeterminate number
the myriad
a great many

四
Four
亖
? Mouth and divide
dispersal of breath
Musical note la

或-conjunction
or

或-adverb
either
perhaps
possibly
maybe
probably

或-auxiliary verb
might
戈 -from
from - halberd, spear
lance
radical
躍-noun
jump
spring
bounce
skip

躍-verb
jump
leap
spring
skip
bump
capriole
skit
skip
jump
frolic在
在-preposition
in
at

在-verb
be
exist
remain
dwell
be alive
belong to an organization
be located somewhere
depend

be at, in, on
consist in, rest

淵-adjective
deep

淵-noun
abyss

deep pool


淵。
Yuan



gulf, abyss, deep
surge up, bubble up
gush forth
无-pronoun
nothing

无-noun
naught

nix
nihility
nought

negative, no, not
lack
Ety- dance, posture, prance
brandish
舞 -orginates from

利
利-noun
interest

profit

benefit

advantage

利-adjective
favorable

favourable

sharp
gains, advantage, profit, merit
to reap grain with a knife
咎-verb
blame

fault

punish

fault, error defect, mistake

ends...

It would be interesting to read some of the academic translations or get the take of people like Owens, Puett, and Bol from Harvard....

....maybe "There are dangers and so we use secret codes
to cover our footprints".......has some relevance here - but not everyone might see or read like that in Hex2.

Whatever the true reality, I'm certainly not trying to force an opinion, rather just exchanging ideas...

Compare with 3 top line [is that the 6th line?]
屯 元亨利貞。勿用有攸往。利建侯。
The station of basic capital
is smoothly progressing without trouble
being sharp and gaining profits
through being virtuous and loyal
do not employ, apply or operate
the hand holding the meat [a metaphoric reference to controlling resources in a domineering manner, i.e. insisting on submission to authority].
in distant, far off places
as that departs from
gains or advantages
build yourself as a lord

 

[sooo]

Thanks, Zimbali. I'll leave it up to those who understand the nuance of early Chinese to critique your translation. I know when I'm out of my depth.

 

[Zimbali]

Thanks, Zimbali. I'll leave it up to those who understand the nuance of early Chinese to critique your translation. I know when I'm out of my depth.

That will be great. The University of Tsinghau, think it is extremely difficult to get anything definitive, so that will be interesting.

 

[Zimbali]

I'd say the Abyss is similar, maybe the same thing in a way as Dante's Limbo, "the edge of things". Perhaps there is even a relationship to the concept from Dante?

 

[sooo]

Yes, I've defined 29 as "edgy". However in 1.4, the dragon does not only stand on the edge, he somehow (key word), as in a dream, by magic, or by wings he didn't know he had, dances across the abyss. Standing on the edge sort of takes my breath away, taking that leap of faith is exhilarating, assuming I dance or at least waver, rather then plunging to my death. But the point is, the dragon doesn't fall. Somehow he defies gravitational pull. He is a supernatural creature after all.

 

[sooo]

[video=youtube;xFntFdEGgws]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFntFdEGgws&feature=player_detailpage#t=62[/video]

 

[rosada]

The fourth line is the position of the advisor, guide or teacher. As hexagram 1 is the first hexagram there is no previous experience to rely on for advice or guidance. Therefore it would seem to make sense that the line would mean "Go forward or stay back. Do whatever you want. There are no rules. Just have a grand experience. It's all up to you however you choose to CREATE it."

my2cents

 

[bradford]

Do not be afraid to take a big step if one is indicated. You cannot cross a chasm in two small jumps.
David Lloyd George

 

[hmesker]

或躍在淵.無咎.

Huo 或: According to the Jinwen Gulin Bu 金文詁林補 and the Guwenzi Tongjia Zidian 古文字通假字典 you 又–> you 有, ‘there is also’. According to 古代漢語通假字大字典 loan character for ru 如, ruo 若, ‘(as) if’. See also hexagram 2, third line. It is interesting that huo occurs mostly at the third line in hexagrams:

1st line: 0x
2nd line: 1x
3rd line: 7x
4th line: 2x
5th line:1x
6th line: 2x
( 1-4, 2-3, 6-3, 6-6, 7-3, 25-3, 32-3, 41-5, 42-2, 42-6, 53-4, 61-3, 62-3)

Yue 躍: Mawangdui text has [魚+龠], but 龠 and 翟 are probably exchangeable, like with 46-2: where the received text has 禴 the MWD text has 濯. 躍 and [魚+龠] can be similar to 䠯, which also means ‘to jump’.

There is a leap over an abyss.
There is no curse from the ancestors.

(http://www.yjcn.nl/wp/about-tuan-彖-and-hexagram-1-judgement-and-lines-1-4/)
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