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mihanna

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Hello, I'm pregnant 38 year old woman. My screening test and ultrasound are both ok but based on my age alone I am advised to do amniocentesis to confirm the fetus is healthy. This would be my second child it took a lot of time to concieve this time and the test doesn't seem worth the risk of miscarriage to me but I still wanted to consult I Ching since it usually helps me with such life changing situations. Trying not to make a mistake eather way.

Question: What if I refuse to do amniocentesis? resulted in hexagram 11 changing lines 5and 6

Question: What if I decide to do the amniocentesis? resulted in hexagram 40 with a LOT of changing lines (all but the first one are changing)

Both seem positive in their own way but I would appreciate your help with these readings since they are quite important to me.
I have to decide in a few days because that is only time option for procedure...hence -urgent...

Thank you!
 

canislulu

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For your first question, the hexagram that results when you change lines 5 and 6 of H 11 is H 9. (H11.5.6 > 9).
I agree that it seems positive. In what way does it seem positive to you?

Perhaps it may help for you to consider what you would do with the results of the amniocentesis. If the amniocentesis were abnormal would you terminate the pregnancy? What type of abnormalities would you tolerate? What are the odds of different types of abnormalities being present in your case? Has the doctor answered these questions for you? What is the risk of miscarriage and how does it compare to the risk of an unhealthy fetus being present?

If you would not terminate a pregnancy in the event of an abnormal amniocentesis then it doesn't make sense to have one to me. But that is my opinion and not related to your readings.

Is there a father involved in the decision and if so what is his opinion? (This is a question for you to consider and I do not need to know the answer to the question. It just seems relevant.)

To me the line 5 of 11 means that to refuse the amniocentesis would be to make a commitment to your inner sense of how you want to proceed. (The "king" being your "inner ruler".)
I am not sure how to interpret line 6 except that the part that says "from you own capital, declaring the mandate" seems to repeat the sense that you would be making a commitment to your own inner sense of how you want to proceed.
 
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radiofreewill

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Hi mihanna,

Welcome to Clarity! Thanks for bringing your important question to the forum. Here's my reading:

If you don't do the amniocentesis, then the strength of your Peace (11, line 5) will be tested and the outcome could go either way ~ meaning the worry of not knowing could contribute to a negative outcome (line 6).

However, if you do the amniocentesis ~ leading to relaxation (40) in 'knowing' ~ then you will experience gradual progress (53) ~ stage by stage, lines 2,3,4,5,6 ~ resulting in birth.

So, in this case, it appears that the relief of knowing outweighs the worry of not knowing, despite the small risk of the procedure itself.

I hope this helps ~ good luck!
 
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ginnie

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I'm afraid line 6 moving in hexagram 11 implies a troubled destiny, and it's a warning. And so, if I were you I would get the amniocentesis, to see what it shows. It would be better if you knew all the facts.
 

canislulu

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Mihanna,

What radiofreewill and ginnie have shared in terms of your reading makes sense to me. Something troubles me about line 11.6 in a question about a pregnancy. And yet in being paired with 11.5 I am wondering if perhaps line 6 is less a warning of a troubled destiny and more of a warning not to persist in putting up walls of fear and trying to defend against something being wrong.

Is radiofreewill's sense that you will worry if you don't have the amniocentesis correct? I am guessing the sense is correct. You likely would not have consulted Yi if you were entirely comfortable with your inclination not to have the amniocentesis. I am not sure fear of a miscarriage is a good motivator to avoid the procedure. Some of the 1 in 500 or so miscarriages following amniocentesis may have happened even without the procedure and it may be difficult to say for certain that it is the procedure that caused the miscarriage. Sometimes a miscarriage is nature's way of releasing an unhealthy fetus. I wish I had more time to research the medical literature to see more details about why amniocentesis is recommended for women over 35, i.e., how that age was chosen, etc.

The second answer, 40.2.3.4.5.6 > 53 does seem positive. Deliverance's Gradual Advance sounds good for a pregnancy doesn't it? and I don't see anything that would make me think you would have complications from the procedure.
 
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canislulu

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I notice in both readings the phrase, "constancy, shame" appears. It is in line 40.3 and also in 11.6. I am just wondering if it has relevance.

I was thinking that in 11.6 it would mean that constancy in fear based action would be a shame. (Would the fear-based action be fear of a miscarriage or fear of not following the advise of the medical authorities?)

In Wikiwing 40.3 is translated as
Shouldering a burden while also riding in a carriage
Invites the arrival of bandits.
Constancy, shame.

What does that mean to you? Is "shouldering a burden" wanting to be responsible for the decision and "riding in a carriage" giving the responsibility for the decision up to the medical authorities and to those of us interpreting your reading here?

Somehow, I don't think you can go wrong. I think your sense that both readings are "positive" in their own ways is correct. I do not see anything in 40 > 53 that would make me think you would have problems from the procedure. And so if your only reason to avoid the procedure is fear of miscarriage, perhaps you can relax about that.

I would be more comfortable coming to an understanding of the readings if I knew more about your feelings and how important it is to you to, as ginnie says, "know all of the facts."

And I just want to repeat. I don't think you can make a mistake. Your desire to "do the right thing" is of course understandable and I don't think there will be any great "shame" in whichever way you decide to go. This sounds like a much wanted pregnancy and I wish you many blessings

When the I Ching has helped you with life changing situations in the past --- how did you arrive at your understanding of the readings and how did it help you proceed in those times?
 

mihanna

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Hi, thank you all for responding, I couldn't respond sooner because I was preocupied my daughter, husband and our dog...but still was thinking about this. Here are my clarifications or more info.

I've consulted I Ching in some way throughout my life, I found some very simplified version in chinese horoscope book when I was around 10 years old or so and found it meaningful and kind of felt it was just right for me. Since, I read/consulted several translations of the book but I settled on Stephen Karcher version because I felt most in tune with it.
I consult it when there is some decision I can't resolve based just on intelect and emotion.
I do rely on my inner sense of the right way and truthfulness a lot, especially in big decisions and in such situations I usually consult I Ching if I have unresolved questions. It helps me clarify and center my thinking. Also communicating about a reading here is helpful in laying out the elements of situation and thinking about them. I do not expect anyone to tell me what to do just trying to clarify my views.

Situation background: took us a while (year+) to get pregnant this second time, all the months I thought it was a
sure thing and we covered all timing posibilities nothing happened and then one month when I even forgot when my period was and we had sex only once because we were too busy with other things I got pregnant (of course no miracle there it probably happens when you don't think about it). From the ultrasound baby is probably boy and due date is very close to my husbands birthday, which may sound trivial but it all has meaning to me.
In previous childbirth I had torn cervix which wasn't stiched so this pregnancy is not so carefree as previous, I have to rest more and have more check ups so there was some wory from the start. As I said prenatal screening gave low risk, age risk alone is about 1:100 but recalculated with bloodwork and ultrasound measurements its 1:2500 for Downs and 1:10000 or more for the rest. The doctor at prenatal screening said when I asked if they will send me for more tests to see is amnio necessary that the results are fine but because of my age they are doing amniocentesis to confirm and there is no point doing other tests. Then I talked with geneticists at the same place and they said mostly the same, your age risk is 1:100 risk with amnio is 1:200 and it is only diagnostic method so it is on you to decide.
I was very upset with the whole situation, when I called my husband I was extremely stressed and started crying so he decided to take me to do expert ultrasound (which hospital did advise but after the amnio to see if there are other problems) and we were both relieved because everything was normal, heart, spine, nasal bone etc. Doctor said there is very little chance there are chromosomal abnormalities if both ultrasound and double are good but of course its not 100%

So husband is supportive, but says its primarily my decision. We talked about it some more last night after he talked with gynecologist friend who supports the view of amnio after 38, and we will talk more tonight after I think about it some more.
I do feel troubled about having to say to my doctors that I don't want to do the recommended procedure. But I'm more uneasy about doing amnio and making a problem with pregnancy where there wasn't one. It of course doesn't end there I feel responsible for making a decision that affects not just me and fetus but the whole family.
What you said about what would I do if the findings are abnormal I'm not completely sure but can't really imagine aborting child in 5-6th of pregnancy especially now I've seen everything works and is developing normaly on ultrasound. (Going for another expert ultrasound in a few weeks when there could be new developments and markers but that is after scheduled amnio)
Not sure if I clarified whole situation, I sure wrote a lot... (english is not my native language so hopefully I expressed myself clearly)
 

mihanna

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Just to add this, since I'm using Stephen Kartcher book here is the hex 11 line 6 from it:
Pervading. The Great Ritual.
The city walls dissolve and return to the moat.
Don't use the legions now.
This oracle originates from the capital.
Trial:distress.
Your fate is in disarray. The structure of things is collapsing. Don't try to force a change by acting aggressively. This dissolution has fate behind it. You may feel confused, but you are in the right position to change your thinking. Take your time. Be of good cheer. Collect energy and insight to try again.
Direction: Find a new central idea. Turn conflict into creative tension. The situation is already changing.
 

ginnie

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I really don't like to use Karcher's line readings, because in the past I've been misled by them. Whatever happens with line 6, it is obviously not good. In my experience it can be nothing, something very brief, or it can be significantly distressing. I think it best to be cautious, and gather all the facts.
 

canislulu

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I don't agree that line 11.6 is "obviously not good". Doesn't it depend on what the "city walls" are in the particular situation? Sometimes isn't it good for "walls to dissolve?" And what does it mean for the oracle to "originate from the capital?"

Mihanna, your English is very clear. Would it be fair to say that you are more comfortable accepting the possibility of a natural problem with the baby, which seems unlikely in light of all of the normal tests so far, than accepting a problem, also unlikely, that may be caused by an elective procedure?

I am wondering if what needs to dissolve is your trouble about telling the doctors how you feel about not wanting the procedure.

At the same time I must admit that something about line 11.6 bothered me at first in relationship to the question until I considered the option that what "was originating from the capital" was mihanna's sense that she would rather not have the amniocentesis.

So when Yi says "Don't use the legions now" is Yi saying don't get the amnio or is Yi saying don't go against the doctor's advise?
 
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canislulu

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I think my interpretation of the reading is based on a bias I have about the two questions as a family physician. I would feel horrible if one of my patients had a who was worried about a diagnostic procedure causing a miscarriage went through with the procedure at my insistence and then had a miscarriage. I would feel less responsible if it turned out that the baby had Down's syndrome and it was not discovered until delivery. It somewhat astonishes me that people on this site are advising Mihanna strongly to have the procedure and I am wondering how they would feel if she gets the amniocentesis and then has a miscarriage.
 

Tohpol

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Just a reminder to folks that I think we have to be incredibly careful in giving advice about medical matters and most especially regarding pregnancies which are, for obvious reasons, best suited to professional evaluations outside of line interpretations on an I Ching forum. It's far too delicate a matter. Of course, there is an automatic disclaimer about such things but it does bear repeating.
 
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deflatormouse

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Just a reminder to folks that I think we have to be incredibly careful in giving advice about medical matters and most especially regarding pregnancies which are, for obvious reasons, best suited to professional evaluations outside of line interpretations on an I Ching forum. It's far too delicate a matter. Of course, there is an automatic disclaimer about such things but it does bear repeating.

It does indeed. Repeating it.
 

ginnie

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Although we turn naturally to the I Ching with our medical concerns, because of anxieties and doubts, it is really true that it is very difficult to interpret medical responses. If it's our own reading, then the responsibility is all ours. It is really tricky interpreting the medical responses of others. It is always good to be reminded of this.
 

rosada

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"What if I don't have the amniocentesis?"

11.5 Not opting for the amniocentesis sends the message that you are confident you have a beautiful healthy child (a daughter, perhaps?).

11.6 Not opting for the amniocentesis sends the message you have no intention of debating this further. You are at peace with your decision, end of story.

In sum, I interpret the I Ching as saying that if you decided not to have the procedure you will need to be clear and strong about your decision and may even have to be prepared to deal with medical professionals who do not agree with you.

I don't think this answer is a comment on how having the procedure might effect the pregnancy. For that you should probably ask, "How would having this procedure effect the baby?" But don't ask us to interpret your answer for you!!!
 

mihanna

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Hi, after a few days of going in circles and feeling trapped and a few talks with my husband and my sister who both more or less say that my fears and anxiety are the most problematic for both me and the baby right now and no matter what I decide I should feel good and in peace about it.
So I calmed a bit and (mostly) realized neather option is that scary.
Asked Yi again a little refraised about the situation,
first: Will the fetus be unharmed/safe if I fo the amniocentesis? Answer hex 22 with lines 3and 5 changing to 42
Second: And what if I decide not to go to amniocentesis? Answer 33 with line 3changing to 12

So it seems to me that doing that amnio might be a better choice or I might be stuck in this loophole of questioning everything. I still feel I don't realy need it but not doing it seems to be more problematic for my wellbeing...
Thanks for help again, it might be of use to someone so I'll try to update this with how things whent in a few months...
 

mihanna

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Jumpingmouse - Thanks for support in both options, your questions were helpful (actually questions are usually more hepful than interpretations to me)
 

Pallas

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Mihanna,
Good luck as it sounds like you have decided to proceed. Please update to let us know how things go.

Do not worry.
Be like the sun at midday.
 

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