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Values and beliefs in the Yi Jing

C

candid

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Lindsay, this is a small and obvious point: If you were captured and put into a prison, with no contact with the outside world for one year, not even with the guards or other prisoners, and the only material you had with you was the yijing, what usefulness would the book have to you? Would then the Yi itself not become your social context, and judge, as Jeff had proposed?

As you've said, we are pack animals, and much of Yi's context is based on our relationship with others, and I suppose its why Yi refers so much to isolation as a negative. The inference nearly always comes down to relationships with others; the Well and Cauldron being possible exceptions, both being man made objects rather than personifications or anthropomorphisms. Yet if there were no others, I believe we'd still need to reflect on some social context, real or imagined, in order to receive value, in order to activate our sense of connectedness. In a true void there would be no use for the oracle. So: connectedness as a core value? Pi (union).

hmm
 

RindaR

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Candid - the well _is_ a symbol of connectedness, it's where the common place where everybody in the community meets a basic survival need, and also meets social needs. We also each reach into ourselves for that sense of connection with the spiritual - a completely solitary activity that leads to a sense of connection with the whole... ... And the cauldron - we cook not just for ourselves, we cook (and clean out messes) for each other too.

Rinda
 
C

candid

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Rinda, the only mention I would take exception with is your reference to "spiritual connection." To one who is not "spiritual", that would have no meaning. That is why I used the term: real or imagined.
 

RindaR

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Candid, you are right, and I need to clarify.

"Water in a well results from the accomplishments of human beings. All the underground streams are there, but without digging the water is wasted."

(from Huang's "The complete I Ching" p.385.)

That's why we need to sit in stillness.

Rinda
 

heylise

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2049.gif
Jiù: fault or mistake. Foot above man. The foot is upside down (sui): walk slowly or with difficulty. Wieger: with shackles. The character at right is another old version: man, another (shackled or hindered?) man, a mouth and ? (shackles or old shoes?). Shuo Wen: dragging oneself along, hindered by worn-down shoes.
Meanings: do wrong to, inflict calamity; misfortune, calamity.

Many characters like this one are explained at http://www.anton-heyboer.org/i_ching/origins/index.html
go to the page "answers of the oracle", or "shaman".

LiSe
 

lindsay

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Once again LiSe says in a few words what I struggled to say in hundreds. She is truly a wonder!

I also loved the comments of Candid and Rinda about the ding and the well, and Gene pointed out what I think is one of the Yi?s greatest mysteries ? its polyvalent ability to deal on many levels at once, from the trivial to the sublime. Now I imagine (jokingly) that Jeff is going to say this is due to the Yi?s ambiguity and sketchiness, but I think there?s probably more to it than oracular vagueness.

Before leaving the topic, I only want to add that shame is still an enormous moral force throughout the world. Perhaps the strongest of all. Memories of shame burn eternally in the mind, even though we eventually forget most of our crimes and transgressions. I will never, ever forget the moment my old grandfather gently caught me in a lie about going to the movies. I felt so ashamed, so small and miserable ? the memory is still a dagger in my heart, and my cheeks tingle even now. ?Come, come!? you say. A six year-old boy tells an innocent, inconsequential lie, and fifty years later a grown man feels inconsolable remorse at the vivid memory of it? Ridiculous! But I say, ?Welcome to the world of the Yi.?

No law, no code, no faith can match the power of shame. This is why we are so disturbed by people who seem to be without shame. I think it is this quality (or lack of quality) in modern politicians that make them so repulsive.

But shame is not a value ? it is an ancient visceral mechanism for controlling behavior. So how should we act? What should we value in ourselves, in others, in the world according to the Yi? I feel we have only set the table in this discussion. We have put out the plates and silverware, glasses and bowls ? but where is the food? What values would the Yi have us keep?

Who will serve the first course?

Lindsay
 
C

candid

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Lindsay, I sure have missed your special shade of color that you bring to us. Thanks for provoking my thoughts in a direction I'd not have otherwise considered.

btw, my mysterious French granny found a roll of lifesaver candy I'd pinched from the local supermarket, also when I was 6, and scolded me lovingly. I know exactly the peculiar shame you speak of. The impact was immeasurable, and still is. That is value!
 

jte

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Hi, Lindsay -

"Finally, I do think ?no blame? may also mean ?you need not blame yourself,? but to say it can mean ?I don?t blame you? is to take a breathtaking leap into the abyss."

I understand what you mean, but for me it's more like an inevitable conclusion than a leap. In other words, the sum total of my personal experiences with the Yi converge on that conclusion. But yes, an abyss, since it's based on personal experience and not falsifiable (scientifically provable/unprovable). However, since I'm not really out to convince others of my belief, that part of it doesn't worry me much. I'm also very aware that this view is only one of many possible views regarding how the Yi operates.

"Who exactly is the ?I? in ?I don?t blame you??"

That, I don't know.

"Are you suggesting the Yi contains an actual personality capable of passing judgment on your behavior?"

Yes, :). I think contains isn't quite the right word. I'm not 100% sure what the right way to put this is. Maybe somethine like "...can express the views of an actual personality..." .

"What if ?no blame? means ?we don?t blame you?? This is more consistent with what we know about Shang-Zhou divination, which seems often aimed at the ancestors ..."

That would be another theory and reasonably consistent with what I've experienced, too. I try to keep an open mind about these things.

Sorry to go on about my idiosyncratic views (but, hey, you asked ;-) ). What are the values/value systems of the Yi? I must confess, I have no definite idea supported by evidence. Maybe someone else can serve that dish...

:)

- Jeff
 

heylise

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"Who exactly is the ?I? in ?I don?t blame you??"

Maybe Megabobby (see thread EGOMANIA).

(not a joke)

LiSe
 

heylise

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I guess I should add some explanation. Phew, read all this some time ago, so all became an image in my mind instead of a list of reproducible facts.
Read a (any) book by Amit Goswami, then you know what I mean. Maybe a title explains much: "The Selfaware Universe". And one sentence: . . . recognized consciousness as the ground of all being and saw that one could build a science on that metaphysical basis . . .
He calls this 'consciousness' ("consciousness is the missing causal organizing principle in today's science"), and "the concept of a transpersonal self beyond the behavioral ego, . . . a two-level self-identity".

'Consciousness encompasses both
Ego: reasoning, continuous, determined, linear, local, personal, classical logic.
AND Quantum self: creativity, discontinuous, synchronistic, holistic, nonlocal, transpersonal, quantum logic.

LiSe
 

heylise

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I edited the above post: consciousness encompasses both ego and quantum self.

LiSe
 

anon99

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Going back to the 'no blame' stuff..If everyone IS blaming you and you consult to see if you are indeed at fault and you receive 'no blame' then its hard to figure out 'what' isn't blaming you.

One time I really didn't know if I was to blame and got this response, so I was puzzled ? Something wasn't blaming me, what was it that wasn't blaming ? Thats another question, tackled here before.....
 
C

candid

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Anon, its your fault. Just accept the blame and be done with it. (just kidding)

I think like everything in Yi, that is to be discerned as best as we're able. Its like getting 4, then getting all shameful, only to find out later that Yi was pointing not to you at all but someone or something else entirely. As long as we're honest with ourselves, praise or blame becomes obvious in time. (but you already know this
happy.gif
)
 

lindsay

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Maybe "no blame" sometimes means there is no blame associated with not understanding the oracle. Sort of the oracular equivalent of the American slang expression, "Whatever." For example, perhaps 7.4 should read, "The army retreats. Or whatever." This may be the Yi's tactful way of reassuring us when we don't have a clue what it is talking about.

Lindsay
 

soshin

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Quote:

"Going back to the 'no blame' stuff..If everyone IS blaming you and you consult to see if you are indeed at fault and you receive 'no blame' then its hard to figure out 'what' isn't blaming you.

One time I really didn't know if I was to blame and got this response, so I was puzzled ? Something wasn't blaming me, what was it that wasn't blaming ? Thats another question, tackled here before....."

Seems to be a very good question for me. I would suggest the one who is not blaming you is the universe. You seemed not to have went against the universes "will" or "intentions" (wrong words because I think "God" or "The Universe" ot "The WAY" have no intentions at all, but I guess you "get me").
wink.gif


This WAY seems not always to be the way most people follow, so it can happen they blame you for something one is not at all to blame. Or even worse, if one's connection to the WAY is more or less blocked, s/he could blame him/herself for something s/he is not to blame.

On the other hand, the opposite is, I guess, happening more often. We think self-righteousness, we are not to blame, but the Yi blames us. And as the voice from the heart of the universe which is the same as the very deepest point of our heart to which the Yi is only lending a voice, th Yi is per definitionem always right.

Namaste,

Soshin
 

anon99

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Or sometimes I think it may be that one is simply instrumental in some wider picture one has absolutely no knowledge of. Like the gods are playing and you are the player they put here or there at any particular time. The effects of action reach so far out of our sight we can't know for sure that 'bad' action can't or never has a good effect, or vice versa. In which case you might think you did something bad, but it was necessary or instrumental in a bigger story (of which you are not aware) hence there is no blame, even when there appears to be ?

The Yi saying 'whatever' ? I imagine it wants to say 'whatever' very often. Or 'whatever' is applicable very often - depending on your idea of who Yi is.
 

lindsay

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Playthings of the gods? I love it, Anon99. This is pretty much the view of the ancient Greeks, back when they took their own myths seriously. Their gods were not morally predictable or accountable, and the gods were always fooling around in human affairs to settle scores between each other. I've often thought polytheism explained a lot of the strange stuff that goes on in this life better than the dominant monotheistic model. Why did polytheism die out, anyway? Maybe it's time for a pagan revival. Or whatever.

Lindsay
 

gene

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There is a Pagan revival of sorts. But even more than that, a growing recognition, supportable by quantum physics, that this indeed is a "self aware" universe. As such the I Ching really does have a personality, the ultimate personality. Not so much a personality as a universal awareness. As such, and I've said it several times, it is not an automatic response system. It does choose the answer to give you based on its own self awareness. And the answer may or may not have a lot of meaning to you. The deeper the maturity level, the more powerful the answers will be.

Gene
 
C

candid

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The bigger picture, yes. A wrong that was part of a bigger right. No blame from self-aware universe.

enjoying the hell out of these ideas!
 

soshin

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Dear Gene,

"The deeper the maturity level, the more powerful the answers will be."

I agree absolutely. From my own experience, in my beginner years I asked a lot and did recieve many answers I were not able to understand. In hindsight I am laughing about my blindness in those days. But, I guess, in some years I'll have something to laugh about again, when I am looking on my readings from 2004
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although I am asking much less and spend much more time in trying to understand than I did in the nineties.

So indirectly, the Yi is a way to helping oneself to mature, because the more one is able to connect with it, the more satisfying the answers would be. And if the theme of the questions are from any importance to one, s/he would ripen with every single answer s/he is getting, wanting that or not. As such, it is a deeply spiritual tool, and altough it is not definitely a book from the Mahayana Buddhist Canon, its use is encouraged at least in the school of Zen Buddhism I belong to.

Namaste,

Soshin
 

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