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What do I need to know about dating women in x place? 19.4 to 54

bologna_tendra

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I moved to a new country recently and so asked this question as it has more relevance than normal - it's easier to make a mistake when you're operating in a different culture in maybe letting a "bad one" in etc. This was my motivation, to try and highlight possible dangers. 19.4 says "complete approach, no blame" and Wilhelm speaks of having an open-mind. This sounds positive.

The resultant/future/contextual hexagram of 54 however appears different - it says "undertaking brings misfortune" in the judgement - is this saying actually I shouldn't date at this time? In Wilhelm's interpretation of the image of 54 though it sounds more nuanced - like you need to be aware of the end you wish when getting involved so as not to drift along aimlessly in the sea of flesh? And then there is all this talk of "marrying maiden" and so I'm not sure how all that fits in with the other parts, there is a lot to unpack.
 

Matali

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Hello ! 19.4 - 54 : "Perfect approach"! You will meet a talented person and you are the "top man"! So, yes it's positive. I think 54 means that for now, it's still secondary to you...
 

Olga Super Star

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Is there any effect on the reading if it's a relationship between two women or between a man and a woman?
I wasn't asking about what kind of relationships you have honestly, although I now see you asked about dating women (hadn't even noticed!), but if you think I was playing the nosy woman you're very very far from the truth.

Matali says top man so it would be nice to know whether it is literal, although I didn't find it in the text so I don't know where she got it from.
Generally speaking I like to know if I am speaking to a woman or a man in a forum, as in real life, but no need to disclose that after all, if you think it's a personal detail.
 

Matali

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Is there any effect on the reading if it's a relationship between two women or between a man and a woman?
In my reference text (Wengu Tartarie): the relationship is symbolized by two men!
19.4: "While the three strokes at the bottom refer to the ascent to power and influence, the three strokes from above show the superior's attitude towards the inferiors to whom he spares influence. Here is shown the perfect and unprejudiced approach of a superior man towards a talented man whom he attracts into his sphere, without caste prevention. This is very favourable. »
It's the same for two women, that's for sure !
 

Olga Super Star

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In my reference text (Wengu Tartarie): the relationship is symbolized by two men!
That's very interesting, that's why he says top man.
In Hilary there is no mention to a man, that's why I was asking.
I don't know this Wengu, I am still very ignorant but little by little I will make up!
 

Matali

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That's very interesting, that's why he says top man.
In Hilary there is no mention to a man, that's why I was asking.
I don't know this Wengu, I am still very ignorant but little by little I will make up!
wengu.tartarie.com, in french and in english ! A lot of references to Richard Wilhem and Chinese texts (Confucius...)
 

bologna_tendra

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I am a man who dates only women, not other men, so I think Yi must have misunderstood something!
 

Trojina

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Hello ! 19.4 - 54 : "Perfect approach"! You will meet a talented person and you are the "top man"! So, yes it's positive. I think 54 means that for now, it's still secondary to you...

Where does the reading say he will meet a talented person and that he is the 'top man' ? What does 'top man' mean here ?


Oh


In my reference text (Wengu Tartarie): the relationship is symbolized by two men!
19.4: "While the three strokes at the bottom refer to the ascent to power and influence, the three strokes from above show the superior's attitude towards the inferiors to whom he spares influence. Here is shown the perfect and unprejudiced approach of a superior man towards a talented man whom he attracts into his sphere, without caste prevention. This is very favourable. »
It's the same for two women, that's for sure !

It's a commentary, it's not what the I Ching says. So there is absolutely nothing in the line about a talented person or a 'top man' whatever that is.


You have mistaken commentary for the I Ching. You got the word 'talented' from a commentary and so think that is what the line says but it doesn't.
 

Trojina

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Hilary's translation from wiki


'Influence nearing.
Constancy, good fortune.'


That's what Yi says.
 

Trojina

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The resultant/future/contextual hexagram of 54 however appears different - it says "undertaking brings misfortune" in the judgement - is this saying actually I shouldn't date at this time? In Wilhelm's interpretation of the image of 54 though it sounds more nuanced - like you need to be aware of the end you wish when getting involved so as not to drift along aimlessly in the sea of flesh? And then there is all this talk of "marrying maiden" and so I'm not sure how all that fits in with the other parts, there is a lot to unpack.


54 here only means that being unfamiliar with the customs of dating in new country you have to fit in, it won't fit in with you. 19.4 shows you are quite well aware of that and so approaches you make go well, you are fine to go ahead, you aren't blundering in.
 

Matali

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Hilary's translation from wiki


'Influence nearing.
Constancy, good fortune.'


That's what Yi says.

The balance sheet remains positive :rofl: 19.4 : "Perfect approach. Good fortune!"
I know it's a comment, but I like Wengu Tartarie because I understand it...
 

Viru10

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It's a commentary, it's not what the I Ching says. So there is absolutely nothing in the line about a talented person or a 'top man' whatever that is.

Out of curiosity @Trojina (since I've seen you mention this before) to what extent do you look at the commentary, if at all? Are there particular translators you think are better for reading a commentary or do you stick to the Yi line itself only?
 

Trojina

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The @ doesn't work unless you are in CC.

There's nothing wrong with looking at commentary the problem is when a person takes one or two words from that commentary and makes the line all about those words...such as 'talented'. A commentator used the word 'talented' to express some ideas about the line. I don't think it was intended that certain words be taken from that commentary to supplant Yi's words. But I get that Matali liked it so she used it.


I don't need to look at commentary much just because I have my own in my head and I'm writing my own. But I still look up what Hilary and Bradford have to say sometimes and sometimes I look in wiki to see other member's ideas are and sometimes I look at my trashy Yi books too.

I think all meanings are still evolving and their evolution does not lie solely with scholars but with people who live answers for themselves and know Yi that way. I don't think anyone should get too dependent on learning from any 'expert' because they can only give their piece of understanding but the rest is entirely one's own journey.
 

IrfanK

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Out of curiosity @Trojina (since I've seen you mention this before) to what extent do you look at the commentary, if at all? Are there particular translators you think are better for reading a commentary or do you stick to the Yi line itself only?
If I may also offer an opinion ...

Just remember what a commentary is: it's what someone else thinks the text means. Sometimes they argue their case well, sometimes not. Better to look at the text, get as much as you can from it. If you're still confused, why not see what someone else thinks? It's not much different from coming onto a forum and asking other people's opinions, except that they can also comment on the specific question.

I like Balkin, but with reservations. Sometimes I can't see how he reaches a specific conclusion. I'm sure his working notes have lots of additional rationales (mostly based on Wilhelm's Book Three), but he doesn't include them in the book.

Even some very experienced, skilled commentators on this forum often just say something like "In my vast experience, line 3 means this." Cool. But why? To be fair, it is quite hard to explain an intuitive response. Hilary generally does that very well, it's one of her great strengths, in my opinion.

But sometimes my intuitive response may be different. Then I want to know why she (or Balkin or Karcher) get what they got.
 
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IrfanK

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I should add that I don't think all intuitive responses are equal. If I have a friend and she's a journalist and has studied Indonesian politics and society for years, I trust her hunches about those issues more than ... well, someone else. Obviously some commentators know a lot about structure, history, cultural references in the Yi. So, they are worth listening to. You still have to trust your own intuition, though.
 

Viru10

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Sad to know I don't have @ powers :bounce: (no clue what this emoji is meant to emote)

I may be around the 1000 ish cast mark, and at this point starting to develop a 'shorthand' or messages that seem attuned to my own intuition, resonates with what you say.

Obviously some commentators know a lot about structure, history, cultural references in the Yi

This is true. I've been close to Huang's book for the last year and his translation of ancient Chinese differs slightly from other common translations. He seems to have a good grasp of the old Chinese.

Appreciate the insights, sorry for taking up your post Bologna! Although your post does bring up another interesting question I've been grappling with. Often times single changing lines that presage good fortune transform a hexagram into a 'negative' hexagram. For example Hex 11.2>36, and 8.2>29 also do this (there are definitely more examples but I don't feel like looking them up). I tend to take the line itself as a sign of good fortune but not quite sure how to integrate the resultant 'negative' hexagram into the reading.
 

Olga Super Star

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Often times single changing lines that presage good fortune transform a hexagram into a 'negative' hexagram. For example Hex 11.2>36, and 8.2>29 also do this (there are definitely more examples but I don't feel like looking them up). I tend to take the line itself as a sign of good fortune but not quite sure how to integrate the resultant 'negative' hexagram into the reading.
Someone would argue 36 isn't a negative hexagram at all..
 

Viru10

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Someone would argue 36 isn't a negative hexagram at all..
Really? It is the hexagram of the Tyrant of Shang, the antagonist of the I-Ching itself. Line 6 is the lord of darkness.

Understandably, 'negative' and 'positive' are relative and are a bit outmoded ways of looking at events (meaning our ego way of looking at things) but it still isn't the most fortunate hexagram.
 

Olga Super Star

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The lord of darkness?! I hadn’t heard of that! So line 6 is the most unfortunate?

36 is an indication to keep your light covered but it says you have one, you are one the right way after all. It’s just an indication on how to move around
 

Viru10

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The lord of darkness?! I hadn’t heard of that! So line 6 is the most unfortunate?

36 is an indication to keep your light covered but it says you have one, you are one the right way after all. It’s just an indication on how to move around

The Confucian commentary on that line indicates a failed ruler, the line indicates the sun going below the Earth which indicates peak ignorance, or peak darkness. I liken Hex 36 to an eclipse, which is seen as a dark omen in some cultures (I think universally).

The failed ruler is Shang. Some commentaries say this is the turning point of darkness back to light, but some just say you are in the midst of peak darkness. Either way many of the changing lines have to do with an injury, giving images of an injured pheasant and so on. Sometimes, true it can be rather benign, like line 36.5 might just mean keep your head down during an inauspicious time. But the story of line 5 has to do with a minister who feigned insanity so he wouldn't be executed by Shang. In this way he was demoted to a slave and could keep his integrity, preserving his light amidst darkness. (because if he publicly denounced Shang he would dishonor himself, even if Shang was a tyrant.)

That's why I don't see it as a 'positive' hexagram. Line 2 is the only one that indicates good fortune, but it still indicates an injury: 'injures him in the left thigh'. You might experience something truly unfortunate in hex 36 and need to be reminded to keep the light going inside you and not give into cynicism. In the case of line 2 the injury may actually lead to good fortune.
 

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