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esolo

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There is some controversy over whether someone is married or not. He doesn't want to confirm it so I asked. What's his current marital status?

52.3 to 23

What do you think? Married or not? Bradford's translation,

Setting those restrictions
Enumerating those distances
Rigors choke the heart

Disunity, feeling awful about it, torn up and a resulting hexagram about splitting. I think the answer is either 'no' or indicative of a breakdown in the marriage.
 

willowfox

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If i understand your question correctly, you are asking if a person is still married or now divorced, single anyway. Is that correct?

Therefore if it is correct, then Hex 52.3 > 23 would mean separation, single.(Or at least very, very soon it will be final)
 

esolo

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If i understand your question correctly, you are asking if a person is still married or now divorced, single anyway. Is that correct?

Therefore if it is correct, then Hex 52.3 > 23 would mean separation, single.(Or at least very, very soon it will be final)

Yes, we know that he was married but we kind of think that perhaps he's getting divorced. Being the sneaky person that I am I decided to ask the Yi.
 
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bruce_g

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If answering the question directly, I see this as saying, yes, he is steadfastly married, but his heart is suffocating in the relationship. He is in the process stripping away appearances to get to the core of what the relationship is about.
 

esolo

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If answering the question directly, I see this as saying, yes, he is steadfastly married, but his heart is suffocating in the relationship. He is in the process stripping away appearances to get to the core of what the relationship is about.

Why do you see it as a 'yes' rather than a 'no'?

My view: My first impression was that of Willowfox, a divorce or some sort of separation. The nuclear hex is 40, release and the relating hex is 23. However, I think it was that phrase 'enumerating those distances' and that made me think of a breakup. Of course, I asked "What's his marital status?" If he's in the process of a divorce his marital status would still be 'married', wouldn't it?

Because I'm incurably nosey I asked another question, "How is his marriage?"
29, unchanging.

Also asked, (yes, I'm terrible) "What's the problem between them?" 33 to 52.

None of these are very nice answers so I think we're probably right in assuming that something is wrong.
 

RindaR

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There is some controversy over whether someone is married or not. He doesn't want to confirm it so I asked. What's his current marital status?

52.3 to 23

What do you think? Married or not? Bradford's translation,

Setting those restrictions
Enumerating those distances
Rigors choke the heart

Disunity, feeling awful about it, torn up and a resulting hexagram about splitting. I think the answer is either 'no' or indicative of a breakdown in the marriage.


I'm with Bruce - "Setting those restrictions" sounds like the boundaries of marriage to me, and "rigors choke the heart" sounds like he's not happy with it...

Rinda
 

willowfox

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Hex 52.3 suggests that subduing the restless heart by forcible means only leads to acrid smoke that suffocates as it spreads.

Therefore, if the guy wants out from the marriage which he seems to, then trying to keep the relationship together only causes it to worsen. So, here it is a matter of nature taking its own course to prevent any unhealthy results in a dead relationship by allowing the two people involved to go their own way.

Hex 23 comes along and says out with the old and in with the new, one cycle, relationship, is ended/ending so that something new can take its place. I get the idea that this guy is not even living with his wife of yesterday anymore, he is basically single but not sure what to do with it. Okay, he maybe still "married" by paper but nothing else.
 

willowfox

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Because I'm incurably nosey I asked another question, "How is his marriage?"
29, unchanging.

Also asked, (yes, I'm terrible) "What's the problem between them?" 33 to 52.

Hex 29 the marriage is full of trials and tribulations, full of woe.


hex 33.4,5 > 52 he wants out without a fuss because it seems they can't agree or see eye to eye about anything anymore, they are blind to each other.
 
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bruce_g

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But I suspect the answers have little or nothing to do with him. I answered as if it did answer your question directly, and who knows for sure, maybe it did. At this point I think it's telling you to be still and retreat from this line of questioning. 29 is great teacher, but usually not without consequences.
 

willowfox

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But I suspect the answers have little or nothing to do with him. I answered as if it did answer your question directly, and who knows for sure, maybe it did. At this point I think it's telling you to be still and retreat from this line of questioning. 29 is great teacher, but usually not without consequences.

I disagree, I think that the IC is answering the questions about this guy and his situation, and in no way is it telling anybody to back off and mind their own business.
 

esolo

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I disagree, I think that the IC is answering the questions about this guy and his situation, and in no way is it telling anybody to back off and mind their own business.

I agree. I don't think the Yi plays games with us. It answers the questions we ask, period. If it didn't, if it decided which questions it was going to answer directly and which it wasn't, it wouldn't be very useful.

Why do you get the impression that he isn't living with her anymore? I don't know whether he is or not. I'll find out eventually of course, but right now I'm just nosey.
 

willowfox

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Why do you get the impression that he isn't living with her anymore? I don't know whether he is or not. I'll find out eventually of course, but right now I'm just nosey.

His answers are so bad that they just give me the idea that he couldn't put up with the situation any longer and decided to leave town. It seems that his problem is an acute embarrassment to him.

Also, if the IC were to pick and chose how it answered then what would be the point of consulting it.
 

RindaR

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His answers are so bad that they just give me the idea that he couldn't put up with the situation any longer and decided to leave town. It seems that his problem is an acute embarrassment to him.

Also, if the IC were to pick and chose how it answered then what would be the point of consulting it.

There is an ethic among some, that holds it to be wrong to use Yi for reasons that are purely selfish, or for reasons that are voyeuristic in nature, or to use it on someone's "behalf" without their consent and knowledge.... Perhaps another side to this is that one consulting with such a purpose might be so out of touch with it's principles as to not be able to read it correctly, and thus become mired in the misunderstanding their own misuse engenders.

Rinda
 

willowfox

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There is an ethic among some, that holds it to be wrong to use Yi for reasons that are purely selfish, or for reasons that are voyeuristic in nature, or to use it on someone's "behalf" without their consent and knowledge.... Perhaps another side to this is that one consulting with such a purpose might be so out of touch with it's principles as to not be able to read it correctly, and thus become mired in the misunderstanding their own misuse engenders.

Rinda


I don't think that doing readings about World leaders is wrong, therefore I have no objection to other people asking questions about other people. Let the IC be the judge in these matters.
It seems to be only a few people on this "site" who seem to think that it is really bad to ask about other people and their affairs, other "sites" do not have these self imposed rules of conduct. Therefore, I have no qualms about answering such questions and I am very sure that the IC is very neutral regarding this matter.
 

esolo

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His answers are so bad that they just give me the idea that he couldn't put up with the situation any longer and decided to leave town. It seems that his problem is an acute embarrassment to him.

This is certainly true. It is a huge embarrassment for him. He must have skipped town because we haven't seen him in some time!

Also, if the IC were to pick and chose how it answered then what would be the point of consulting it.

Absolutely. The IC is a tool and tools don't pick which jobs they will work on and which they won't.
 

Trojina

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. Perhaps another side to this is that one consulting with such a purpose might be so out of touch with it's principles as to not be able to read it correctly, and thus become mired in the misunderstanding their own misuse engenders.

Rinda

I think that about sums it up and in much politer terms than i have so far been able to summon up. Esolo if you think the Yi is a tool to enable you to pry into the lives of others, that it is merely some kind of neutral slot machine then you are so far away from knowing what its about at all your use of it is more or less useless to you.
 

esolo

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That's exactly what it is, a neutral 'slot machine'. These answers fit the situation. The guy is having major problems with his wife. Nobody has been able to find him. We don't know what's going on etc. The IC told me the truth. I have never had the IC steer me away from a subject. It has always told me what's going on.
 
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bruce_g

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I have no strict rules about this sort of thing, which is why my first answer addressed him rather than Esolo. That's also why I don't think WF's answers are necessarily wrong. I can't say for certain, one way or the other. I offered what I perceived, that's all.

But, I have also learned that there is a backlash effect if/when my motive is less than pure. I don't consider spying on someone else for my own selfish reasons to stem from a pure motive, and so it is my heart/soul which objects, not necessarily the Yijing. However, if knowing the state of someone else allows me to help them, then nothing objects: not the Yi and not my heart/soul. I don't think Yi is so fragile that it can be so easily violated; I think it's our own heart/soul which refuses to answer the fool in us.
 
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bruce_g

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I think Wilhelm's 48 expresses it very well:

The town may be changed,
but the well can't be changed.
It neither decreases nor increases.
they come and go and draw from the well.
If one gets down almost to the water
and the rope doesn't go all the way,
or the jug breaks, it brings misfortune.

Coincidentally, I wrote in my blog yesterday:

Of wells and fishes

Grasping an oracle’s answer is like fishing: You must first go to the fish, and have enough line to reach them. Light line and a small lure attracts more bites. Know when to set the hook. Reel and net with finesse, lest it breaks off.

It requires more skill and finesse than a slot machine, which relies entirely on chance and luck.
 

esolo

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Well, it has always worked for me. I haven't always understood the answer at the time I received it, but later I saw that it was indeed a very direct answer to the question asked. The IC wasn't scolding me or anything of that nature.
 
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bruce_g

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Well, it has always worked for me. I haven't always understood the answer at the time I received it, but later I saw that it was indeed a very direct answer to the question asked. The IC wasn't scolding me or anything of that nature.

Remote viewing is also said to work, without regard to intent or sentiment or reason for viewing. Same with wiretapping, room bugging, peep holes and ghost hauntings.
 

Tohpol

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A few quotations from you Esolo which were interesting:

“Being the sneaky person that I am I decided to ask the Yi.”

“Because I'm incurably nosey I asked another question…”

“I agree. I don't think the Yi plays games with us. It answers the questions we ask, period. If it didn't, if it decided which questions it was going to answer directly and which it wasn't, it wouldn't be very useful.

Why do you get the impression that he isn't living with her anymore? I don't know whether he is or not. I'll find out eventually of course, but right now I'm just nosey.”

“That's exactly what it is, a neutral 'slot machine'. These answers fit the situation. The guy is having major problems with his wife. Nobody has been able to find him. We don't know what's going on etc. The IC told me the truth. I have never had the IC steer me away from a subject. It has always told me what's going on.”


Hmmm. :)


Perhaps it’s not a question of steering you away from the subject but doing what the IC is designed to do – teaching you something about yourself and how you perceive. Thus it becomes the real root cause of the question and an important opportunity to learn something about yourself – a blind spot maybe?

In my own experience IC is like a sage in your room and it can reflect our wishes and desires very accurately. The purity of intent i.e “I want to grow, I want to understand the truth for highest potential” etc. as oppose to “I want and need this now” for no other reason but to gain information which is by rights the private thoughts and life of another, is akin to using the IC as a tool for black magic. Exactly the same principle. In others words, trying to bend the IC to your will rather than allowing it to speak to you. The gift of the IC is demeaned in this way. It is a fountain of spiritual knowledge for some, a slot machine to gamble with for others. Then, much of life falls into the latter so it’s nothing new. Our job perhaps is to discern which dynamic we are following. There are different levels that persons can access the IC depending on your awareness. This is surely a universal law.

I don’t think it is a question of playing games nor is it about deciding which answers are chosen. That would imply that the IC has human personality and is thus fallible. Yet at the same time, like any higher mode of being – an Oversoul if you will – there is humour and teaching available that is personal for everyone of us. Therefore, in one sense, answers can be adapted according to the lesson profile and aforementioned intent of the inquirer. There is a supreme logic and benevolence to the IC. It's nature means it knows our higher self and our personality demands intimately. The I Ching is embedded in the "matrix" of the cosmos, perhaps, as we are. Maybe then the I Ching could be said to be ourselves in the future teaching us at the end of the spiral.

When open the book or establish a connection with this "tool" I think it can almost be likened to setting up a conduit or channel through which we can communicate. This channel can be corrupted by our subjective wishes however, and therein lies the art. Therein lies the effort to be objective as possible. And with objectivity comes the ability to act on the principles explicated in the IC itself. I doubt that includes using the IC to enter the thoughts of another. Abridging free-will is not part of the deal.

I think in this present thread Esolo’s intent was to be “nosey” when perhaps there was the possibility of not asking such things. Imo, IC responded consistently from the beginning to cease this line of questioning due to the nature of the intent which was incompatible perhaps with the way the IC works. I have seen this happen on many occasions when the line of questioning was irrelevant and superficial. Then again, when we are truly in times of deep crisis and we ask about another due to this stress, then it's possible it will gently respond. It’s all in the intent.

When we ask about persons that are directly in the film of our life and for self-gratification or simply to be “nosey” I think that creates “static” on the IC-band that is incompatible. Asking about world leaders linked to the state of Nations and the world is an entirely different matter and one in which the intent is hardly self-gratification but in my own experience, the sharing of possibilities connected to creative modes of social responsibility of which we all necessarily play a part. And I think it's these principles that encode the building blocks of the I Ching.

Anyway, that’s my two cents!

Topal
 
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bruce_g

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Topal, and a fine 2 cents it is, too.

The only thing I'm uncertain about is the "intent" factor, but that's polly cuz I don't want to believe that people have ill intentions. I know that's a big blind spot of mine. I'm a sucker, what can I say?

In retrospect, I do think Esolo's original answer pertained to this mystery man, but that doesn't mean it couldn't have also been a word to Esolo, too. I find that happens quite often. After Esolo's first inquiry, I felt that Yi had shifted, directing answers not to the mystery man but to Esolo. But realistically, that could have only been my own impatience and disapproval.

I'm frequently asked not only to interpret a reading for someone, but to throw the coins on their behalf, as well, and the outcomes are always quite clear to both of us. But then again, I am doing so with their consent.

A short while ago, a close friend was going through a dangerous physical trauma. It was important to me to understand what state of mind this person was in, and so I asked the Yi, and Yi's answer was helpful, because I knew better how I could best help them get through it. So again, it appears that intent was a factor, in spite of my personal distaste for that consideration.

I once argued with Ewald over this matter of intent. I concede, I think he was right and I was wrong. People's intentions aren't always as innocent as I'd like to imagine.
 

Tohpol

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After Esolo's first inquiry, I felt that Yi had shifted, directing answers not to the mystery man but to Esolo. But realistically, that could have only been my own impatience and disapproval.

Yes I completely agree - that's something I didn't mention. There was a subtle shift.

I'm frequently asked not only to interpret a reading for someone, but to throw the coins on their behalf, as well, and the outcomes are always quite clear to both of us. But then again, I am doing so with their consent.

Yes, I think that's really important to establish permission and to set up that link by a kind of proxy consent. But a little bit like tarot an experienced diviner (like yourself) can often get to the crux of the matter and "tell it as it is." I think it's so often easier to do this for others than for ourselves don't you think? It's more objective. I've done a few readings for family and occasionally for friends but not many.

A short while ago, a close friend was going through a dangerous physical trauma. It was important to me to understand what state of mind this person was in, and so I asked the Yi, and Yi's answer was helpful, because I knew better how I could best help them get through it. So again, it appears that intent was a factor, in spite of my personal distaste for that consideration.

Yes this illustrates the point about intent very well indeed.

I once argued with Ewald over this matter of intent. I concede, I think he was right and I was wrong. People's intentions aren't always as innocent as I'd like to imagine.

*Sigh* Yeah. It's a bummer :(

Topal
 

esolo

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While that was interesting the fact remains that the answers did indeed reflect the situaion, perfectly. Willowfox was also right on target when she spoke of embarrassment. Since I myself didn't see that aspect of it reflected in the answer I'm curious about why she said that.
 

Tohpol

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While that was interesting the fact remains that the answers did indeed reflect the situaion, perfectly. Willowfox was also right on target when she spoke of embarrassment. Since I myself didn't see that aspect of it reflected in the answer I'm curious about why she said that.


It's not so much a question of whether WF's interpretation can be applied to external events, which they can, but whether in this particular case the emphasis is more on internal commentary than the external actions. I think it's actually both with a shift that Bruce mentioned taking place as the questioning proceeded.

The embarrassment aspect could be described as WF's intuitive faculty which I think is pretty developed. This need not necessarily cancel out the idea that it is more about you than the guy.

That said, I think WF's interpretations (in my own particular experience at least) has helped me enormously and like many of the seasoned I Chingers here I respect her contributions very much.

I just happen to disagree in this particular case. No big deal eh? :D

Topal
 
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bruce_g

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It shows the danger of titling a thread "What do you think?"

I think it's a good topic; one which needs to be discussed from time to time. It's also a contention stimulator, but that's ok too sometimes.

Is Yi just a tool or is it a teacher? If a teacher, what does it teach about ethics, particularly the ethics of divining? If only a tool, what ethics, if any, should we attach to our use of it? I think these are valid questions.
 

esolo

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The embarrassment aspect could be described as WF's intuitive faculty which I think is pretty developed.

I was impressed, that's for sure. There's an aspect of public humiliation involved here and yes, it has been acutely embarrassing for him.
 

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