What does Jackie's parents need from me, if anything?

[wandering]

What does Jackie's parents need from me, if anything? Yi offered me 45.1.2

I am so confused, how can let myself be drawn into a group that has closed me out? What can I offer them that might change their mind? I am hot and cold, sometimes seeking to join in, sometimes shrinking away. I am afraid. I don't know what to do. I don't why this relationship is so important to me. Why do I care so much about someone I hardly know? 58 sound promising. This is the sign of true companionship. They shut me out! This is the polar opposite of what is going on in reality. Please help me understand. Thanks.

 

[pocossin]

What do Jackie's parents need from me?
45.1.2 > 58

45 is the hexagram of the temple. They want for their daughter someone who shares their values. How stable are you? Do you use drugs? Do you dress respectfully? Do you have a career? Are you reasonably accommodating to the needs and wishes of others? 58 suggests that if you met their standards, you'd be welcome at their table.

 

[ginnie]

With hexagram 45, Assembling or Gathering, a spirit of sacrifice is asked of newcomers. You have to show that you are willing to give of yourself in some way for the good of the family. If you feel okay with these people, then this sacrifice will be okay with you. But if you are unwilling to do what has to be done to fit in, then I'd say to back off and not force your way, because the willingness has to come from your heart.

 

[wandering]

Hi Ginnie, what kind of willingness are you talking about. You mean while in Rome do as the Romans do?

Here a little twist on things. Jackie took a Socionics personality typing indicator and expressed her interest in me taking it as well. I always knew that my Meyers Briggs personality type was INFP, and I accepted it and thought that these tow tests were very similar. Out of curiosity I took the test yesterday. My personality type turns out to be INFj. I didn't believe it so I let it rest and took the test again today, I am an INFj. Her's is ESFp. I ran a compatibility test on how well our relationship would be if we got together. As it turns out, it is one of the best matches. It also points out this about me: They can be passive and self-absorbed, often preferring to wait for things to happen rather than make them happen. As such, they tend to have quite a number of lost opportunities. To a certain extent, EIIs (INFj's) can be oblivious to hints from someone who is romantically interested in them. Therefore, this gives the other party the wrong impression that they are not interested in them.

I fear I may not know what's going on. This isn't new. I have suffered from many lost opportunities in my life. The statement is spot on. There is more to it than just this. I love this girl, but I don't know if they are trying to test me or what. I used to do all kinds of things to show her love and attention, but I have slacked off, due to the fear that I might get in trouble. I am trying to show respect, but my gut and instinct is saying not to back off. I have backed off and I wonder if that has shown them a weakness.

I am wondering if Yi can help me in understnding what to do. I don't understand Yi very well, and it drains me to try to understand it. The best move here maybe would be to ask you what kinds of question as good ones to ask iChing about all this? A list of questions would be helpful.

Thank you for kind help.

 

[moss elk]

High 5 my fellow INFJ!

So, what are you wanting to happen here anyway?
Do you just want to resume virtual communications and continue your virtual relationship indefinitely?
(Yes, i know it is real but, it also is what it is....)

Or Do you want to build something more?

 

[wandering]

High five back.
Something more! With passion and respect, something more. I am asking for guidance

 

[ginnie]

Hi Ginnie, what kind of willingness are you talking about. You mean while in Rome do as the Romans do?

Willingness to put the relationship or the family ahead of narrow self interest.

I love this girl, but I don't know if they are trying to test me or what.

I guess some incidents must have happened where you felt uncomfortable. Do you think you'd like to write in more detail about what happened?

The best move here maybe would be to ask you what kinds of question as good ones to ask iChing about all this? A list of questions would be helpful.

Hilary wrote a Sticky Note at the beginning of Shared Readings on relationship questions. You might find reading that to be quite helpful.

 

[Trojina]

Here is the link Ginnie mentioned http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/frie...42-Blog-post-Advice-for-relationship-readings

. Why do I care so much about someone I hardly know? 58 sound promising. This is the sign of true companionship. They shut me out! This is the polar opposite of what is going on in reality. Please help me understand. Thanks.

58 can just signify communication.

People seem to be answering without the facts so correct these facts if I am wrong. It's what I have gathered from previous threads

1. you have never met Jackie or her parents ?

2. you have never communicated with her parents in any way ?

3. Jackie and her parents live in India. You don't know where in India.

4. You have no intention of going to India and you are in another continent ?

4. You don't have Jackie's email address and have only communicated on Twitter ?

5. Someone, either Jackie or her parents has blocked you on Twitter ? It seems cruel of me to suggest it may be Jackie herself who has blocked you but it may be a possibility ?



With these facts in mind I just can't see how the reading fits although it looks like things can be sorted out if you reach out (45.1). 45.1.2>58 suggests a gathering, a conversation, where misunderstandings may be cleared up in free exchange.

But if you don't know any of these people except on Twitter I am doubtful about how much the reading can mean.

Please correct any of the above facts if they are wrong. Then people will have a clearer view of the situation. As it is it looks as if you cling to a connection that is flimsy....yet the answer seems to encourage expressing your pain openly.

If blocked on Twitter I find it hard to see how expressing your pain openly can help.....where would you express it ? Do you have her parents email address ? As it is your situation needs clarifying for Yi's answers to be made into any kind of practical suggestion.


Also, seriously, have you been pestering her and the parents just want you to leave her alone ? She is not a girl, at 23 she is a woman and even in India I think a 23 year old woman would manage to get access to a computer without her parents knowledge . Why do you not have a private email address ?

 

[Trojina]

Also re reading your hexagram 13 thread you said

Sometimes I flirt with her, but she doesn't seem to understand it, or doesn't care for it.

So why do you persist ? I am beginning to think her parents feel she is vulnerable, protecting her from a much older American male whose advances she isn't particularly welcoming.

Please correct me if I'm wrong...but you seem blind to her and her parents position.

Yet the reading is 45.1.2>58


Also on the 13uc thread you said

We did speak a few times via FB messaging. She told me not to post to her wall, but it was okay to message. So we do, periodically and we still have that connection although things are awkward, not in personality, but in her fear she might get caught.

I think maybe you should just leave her alone, sounds like she feels harassed by you ? However that is my view from the facts as presented so far not the readings. If I have this totally wrong then you need to explain how so people can give fuller answers to you.

 

[wandering]

Interesting Trojan,

Seems to me your comments are assuming the negative side of things on my part. I am confused why you would do that. I read a few of your posts and you seem to do that with a lot of people though, so maybe it's your style to play the devils advocate. Just to be clear, I didn't want anyone to interpret my behavior. I ask for an interpretation on the hexagram; the others did, but you avoided it, trojan. Just noticing is all.

Why would she feel harassed? I didn't do any harassing. The question isn't about her. I know how she feels. The question is about her parents. What do they want from me. Ginni answered it best, go into their temple with respect and love. In the real world, when the timing is right, I will go to india. The timing isn't here yet. Soon, but not yet.

But, don't you think that I would have enough propriety and self respect and dignity to leave her alone if what you are suggesting is true? I wouldn't even be here asking for an interpretation if what you suggested were true. Rather, if it were true, I would be asking questions about my shame and guilt. But I'm not because it isn't anywhere near your assumption, trojan.

You are placing your assumptions before the Yi when you said "Yet the reading 45.1.2>58 Yi gave me the hex before I came here to seek help.

Isn't it presumptive to suggest harassment when you know I have a lot of time invested in this relationship? Why would I jeopardize it when I am doing the best I know how? No offense, but in defense, who are you to tell me to leave this girl alone when the Yi suggests otherwise? I find that somewhat arrogant having such inappropriate preconceptions. Do you have something against relationships working? I read post's where you say similar things to other people. You seem to mean well, but you also seem biased against relationships working. The basis of all communication is reconciliation. If it isn't, why talk at all? I know we don't know each, but please, could you try and give me the benefit of your doubt? I like the devils advocate position so long as it helps. To suggest abandonment of this relationship is more of a cop-out than a solution.

I also think you are putting the parent's wants before hers and mine. I want the parent's to like me, but I want communication to flow better. So, how do I do that? This isn't a black and white situation. Something can be worked out. The Yi didn't say give up, otherwise I would have gotten a different hexagram. It didn't say move on or anything. I didn't get the dreaded hex. I don't remember which one that is, I didn't get that one. So, it seems to me, there is hope.Yi could have said something a lot worse, but it didn't.

The temple to me implies to respect the sacredness of what is important to them and to me. Can I enter the temple and be respectful? Temples are a place to learn and worship, share love and joy, they don't generally turn out or stop people at the door. They ask for reverence yes, but reverence is really a form of love. The temple is the home of deep values. The value of encouraging relationships take precedents over separation, and I doubt temples would suggest ending relationship unless there is some kind of violence. Even then, things can change over time. There are lots of stories in history about enemies reconciling, and this relationship doesn't even come close to that.

Your comments are a little helpful, but they are distorted. Sorry trojan, but I am looking for better nurturing.

Thank you for the link though, I read it. Helps me understand how to ask better questions.

Why don't we exchange email? We have, but it is easier and faster to chat on Facebook. I wasn't blocked on instagram or facebook. Just twitter.

I am still open for ideas. I think you can help me trojan, but could you not assume I did something wrong? Thank you for your ideas. I just want to understand better how this hexagram relates better to what I said. Thanks.

 

[wandering]

Interesting Trojan,

Seems to me your comments are assuming the negative side of things on my part. I am confused why yo would do that. I read a few of you post's you seem to do that with a lot of people though, so maybe it's your style. Just to be clear, I didn't want anyone to interpret my behavior. I ask for an interpretation on the hexagram. The others did, but you avoided it, trojan. Just noticing is all.

Why would she feel harassed? I didn't do any harassing.

Don't you think that I would have enough propriety and self respect and dignity to leave her alone if what you are suggesting is true? I wouldn't even be here asking for an interpretation if you suggested I did were true. I would rather be asking questions about my shame and guilt. But I'm not because it isn't anywhere near your assumption trojan.

I have a lot of time invested in this relationship, doing the best I knew how only to be told by you to leave this girl alone when the Yi suggests otherwise. I find that somewhat arrogant. Do you have something against relationships working? I read post's where you say similar things to other people. The basis of all communication is reconciliation. If it isn't, why talk at all?

You are placing your assumptions before the Yi when you said "Yet the reading 45.1.2>58 Yi gave me the hex before I came here to seek help.

I also think you are putting the parent's wants before hers and mine. I want the parent's to like me, but I want communication to flow better. So, how do I do that? This isn't a black and white situation. Something can be worked out. The Yi didn't say give up, otherwise I would have gotten a different hexagram. It didn't say move on or anything. I didn't get the dreaded hex. I don't remember which one that is, I didn't get that one. So, it seems to me, there is hope.Yi could have said something a lot worse, but it didn't.

The temple to me implies to respect the sacredness of what is important to them and to me. Can I enter the temple and be respectful to them and still maintain respect for myself? Temples are a place to learn, they don't generally turn out or stop people at the door. They ask for reverence yes, but reverence is really a form of love. The temple is the home of deep values. The value of encouraging relationships take precedents over separation, and I doubt temples would suggest ending relationship unless there is some kind of violence. Even then, things can change over time. There are lots of stories in history about enemies reconciling, and this relationship doesn't even come close to that.

Your comments are a little helpful, but they are distorted. Sorry trojan, but I am looking for better nurturing.

Thank you for the link though, I read it. Helps me understand how to ask better questions.

I am still open for ideas. I think you can help me trojan, but could you not assume I did something wrong? Thank you for your ideas. I just want to understand better how this hexagram relates better to what I said. Thanks.

 

[Trojina]

I'm afraid your questions just don't make any sense to me. When I have asked for simple clarification of the facts you did not answer me but just wrote a long post about my defects in response. I did give you my take on the reading here ;

With these facts in mind I just can't see how the reading fits although it looks like things can be sorted out if you reach out (45.1). 45.1.2>58 suggests a gathering, a conversation, where misunderstandings may be cleared up in free exchange.

But if you don't know any of these people except on Twitter I am doubtful about how much the reading can mean.

You are asking how to improve relations with the parents you have never had any contact with at all who have blocked you on Twitter As far as I can see you do not have any actual relationship with any of these people so answering questions about them is a waste of time IMO without much more clarification.

Your comments are a little helpful, but they are distorted. Sorry trojan, but I am looking for better nurturing

I am afraid without greater clarification from you I would feel by offering Yi interpretations here I would be not nurturing you but fostering further delusional thinking on your part.

If you wish to go by the reading it is quite clear that you need to reach out to them as I have already indicated.

I will not be responding to you any further but hope you find some peace with this situation.

 

[ginnie]

The hexagram 45 is interesting because it suggests a common cause. People are drawn together by deep values held in common. Right now you are in the line 1 phase of hexagram 45, because you are confused about what they want and feel indecisive. But there is no real reason for anxiety.

Hexagram 45 line 2 says to allow yourself to be drawn into a relationship with the parents entails no blame and will bring good fortune.

I don't know what nationality you are, but Indian families can be close-knit. Even though she is an adult, she seems quite bound by what her family thinks. You might have to put up with this. That may be the sacrifice that is asked of you. In other words, you are dealing with more than one other person. You are dealing with her relatives, too, so you always will have to take them into account.

 

[wandering]

Thank you ginnie. I've been praying for a family. I can be content living alone, but I would be missing out, AM missing out on some of the most important parts of human life. Living within a close knit family will have it's ups and downs. I love to love, and be loved. I will have to give up my privacy needs. I will be well known, that goes without saying I guess, but that too has it's good and bad. I said earlier that I am INFj, but I have many strong INFp tendencies-the test says I am on the cusp of j & p. I am a cancer. I love and adore family.

I took to heart what trojan said and ask the Yi another question this morning. I woke up from a bad dream about my grandmother. The pain of missing her and hearing her voice in my dream made me feel very sad. She asked me, what is the sense in just following Jackie on Twitter? So I asked the Yi that question.

I put it in another threat called the voice of my grandmother, but he pointed me here 53.1.5.6>36. I am still studying it. But I am hoping for insights from the group over in that other thread.

 

[Liselle]

Have read these threads out of curiosity, mostly (which I'll admit isn't a good reason)...I can understand how people are torn between the common sense of the situation on the one hand (you have very little actual relationship with this woman or her family and almost no way to communicate; it's not terribly surprising that parents could be alarmed here, etc.) - and the readings on the other hand, which despite all that do sound encouraging .

But I did notice this ONE little thing:

fellowship out in the open

tweet something to the world like:

"I miss your friendship (so and so)"

once per day

If I message on twitter they won't receive my messages. Twitter changed the way blocking works, it is more like muting (no see, no hear what you say).

Wandering, what you're saying is probably true as far as it goes (as I understand Twitter, which I'm not on) - but what Moss Elk might have been getting at is that ANYONE can read a public Twitter feed. All your friend has to do is go to https://twitter.com/WanderingsAccountName, and she can see what you tweet. IF she is actually still interested enough to go to your Twitter page and read it.

And vice-versa: If she still has a public Twitter account, you can read anything she tweets.

 

[wandering]

Thanks Lisa. If I scared this poor girl, she didn't let on. And IF her parents are scared or whatever, I wish they wouldn't be. It is a good idea what you say and there is a ray of sunshine.

Peace.

 

[sooo]

And IF her parents are scared or whatever, I wish they wouldn't be. It is a good idea what you say and there is a ray of sunshine.

You may wish her parents wouldn't be but that doesn't change what they want for their daughter, which if I understand correctly, is at least part of what you had asked about.

There are more than one aspect of any given hexagram and I think you want to see and hear what you want to see and hear, and may very well be missing what you don't want to hear. To understand Yi's answer requires an opened mind and a willingness to change your current position rather than trying to make it support your already established point of view.

For instance, the first thing I associate with 45 when I receive it is, like a little mantra: "Get yourself together," Or gather your senses.

Referring also to your grandmother's message about this girl, my grandmother too speaks to me in dreams and sometimes as a crow. I'm always so happy to see and hear from her, I once always interpreted her appearance and message as a happy one. But I've since learned that her appearances can sometimes be ominous, as a serious warning, and I've learned to read her omens more carefully. Your grandmother's message can be interpreted as a warning too, or at least she may give real cause for concern in her question.

So forget what you wish to hear and open to what she and the Yi, as well as some help being offered here, as something other than what you wish.

As well, 58 has meanings other than being joyful. Dispense the notion of "the dreaded hexagram", as there is no such thing. Nor is there an always happy and joyful hexagram. 58 also refers to the young daughter, who is not always joyful, though it's likely what her parents would want. It can also represent the other side of joy, which is melancholy. A young daughter typically includes both, one moment laughing, another moment in tears, very volatile. And naturally a parent who sees this becomes protective of her, and if a man, whether young or old, is causing this, they will certainly try to break off any such folly which takes the joy from their young daughter. Some cultures are more extreme about their daughter's suitor than others, and I gather (45), this family may be from such a culture.

I'm trying to keep my own sense of morality out of this, and I don't mean to sound as though I'm scolding or reprimanding, because it's none of my business, I have no dog in this race, so to speak. But your reading can be interpreted as 'get yourself together, and leave our young daughter be; we have other plans for her, plans which we believe are guided by fate' (note line 2). I believe this is what her parents want for you to realize, and that they ask, what offering are you presenting to and for our daughter, beside what you wish?

 

[wandering]

Thanks Sooo.

I have considered everything all of you have presented, INCLUDING social standards; of being reprimanded, of being shamed, of being made feel guilty so I might leave or abandon or not seeing that MAYBE she doesn't want me around. Some of you might think I might be in denial, and that the only way out of denial is to leave or abandon this girl. And, after all, you would all agree that there are far more fish in the sea, that it would be easier to find someone else; perhaps someone my own age; sigh, but this isn't what my heart is saying. I am a rational man, I know the rules. I am aware of them. It disturbed me to think that none of you considered what I wanted, only what MIGHT look aesthetically pleasing to the public. Please understand, even after all you said, I am not going to live my life in regret because I didn't try. I respect your intuitive abilities, but I am not going to sit in a rocking chair at 90 in 50 years looking back on these times thinking, I wish I had pursued. Believe me, and I don't mean this disrespectfully, but I won't be thinking, gosh, I'm glad I listened to those iching folks-i just won't be thinking that way. I will be thinking, who love me? Who did I love? Who did I try to love. I don't' want to think that I missed my one true chance of a soul mate. To me, going to jail for a night or two for harassment, IF IT COMES TO THAT, is far better than the regret I would feel for years, especially at an old age, if I didn't try.

I have learned that the reading can be interpreted both ways. iChing might be saying, LOOK HERE YOUNG MAN, they want you to leave them alone, they want you to leave their daughter alone, and never come back. I think if iChing wanted to say that to me, I would have gotten a different Hex, but I didn't.

Or, it could mean, what another user said: "Might be someone in the process of achieving something. It doesn't happen overnight, it is nothing flashy, it is more a step by step thing. There will be moments when the person will think that he/she is getting nowhere, as there will be setbacks and things feel so slowly (for someone's taste). But the whole thing is well worth it. But things will fall into place eventually, when the change becomes real, the past (old patterns/life) is left behind and there is a new beginning."

This fits so much better with what's been going on. I didn't feel judged. I didn't feel push. I felt respect, a nonverbal statement that said, you're an adult, you know what you're doing, you realize the consequences, but here's my take on the reading. There was no insertion of her personal values, just a reading of the lines. I appreciated that so very much. Mariam, thank you.

I realize that even this statement can mean either I become more enlightened, that this may be a fantasy, or we get together over time. There is such a thing as faith. Time will tell the story.

Thank you all for your guidance and help. I know all of you care about society, it shows, that is commendable and good. Thank you.

Well, take care. Maybe I'll post again someday. Peace.

Trojan, if I have offended you, I am sorry. Please forgive me. May you be blessed.

 

[moss elk]

wandering,

I believed you when you spoke of your feelings.
and I was just trying to help you sort them out and make a game plan.
I am a romantic at heart and i'll be the first to congratulate you if you make something happen here.

cheers

 

[wandering]

Thank you Moss Elk for considering my feeling. They are the most important aspect of who I am, except my ability to think. Anyway, you are kind and caring. Take care, and I will let you know. It might be a while. but I try to remember to come back and give an update.

cheers

 

[wandering]

Never stop seeking what seems unattainable. ~W. B. Yeats

 

[hilary]

I'm coming to this absurdly late… ah, well. Since reading through your threads, Wandering, I couldn't help noticing a couple of things about your readings, and having noticed them it would be silly not to post.

Starting with this 45.1.2 to 58: I think it's safe to say the parents would expect you to show up, introduce yourself to them formally, get involved in a real conversation with them (not Twitter!), and be willing to make sacrifices. Maybe start by asking Jackie for a postal address so you can write a letter to her parents introducing yourself, explaining your intentions and perhaps asking their permission to court their daughter. Then look into how you could travel there to meet them face to face (45.1), as a top priority. (53.1, from your other reading, tells the same story. A difficult meeting, but you are not going to get past the shoreline without it.) And start to plan how, in a few years' time, if all goes well, you might move permanently to India.

45 is a hexagram of sacrifice and dedication within a community of shared values. 58 is one of real live communication and exchange. 53: patience, devotion, the journey, the long haul, and of course the long slow process of formal courtship. 36: perseverance through hardship and injury, amongst other things.

So the question all the readings ask you, IMO, is 'Is this what you want?'

 

[wandering]

I am touched by your reading Hilary, thank you. Yes this is what I want: to be a part of their family, to love them like my family.

The first meeting might be difficult, then getting to know them, transitions from acquaintance to possible friendship, but it can be worked out, it will be worth it. The move to another country for an indefinite stay will be stressful, but I am willing to go. The amount of time it will take...I am willing, the time invested, and yes, the possible rejection after all this. I understand most of the consequences. I am trying to be a man of character, perhaps I put this in front me because I too need to grow, to love someone, to be loved.

Yes to 45 AND 58, and yes to 53 and 36. In the Hebrew Bible, there is a story about a man named Jacob who waited 14 years to be with Rachel. It makes me cringe a little, the hardship, and injury, but I am willing to do what need to be done. I think this is also a test of my character too. There is so much to go through, and the experience of it will make me a better person.

Thank you Hilary for your sensitivity and your interpretation.
Peace be with you.