What happened to the Wilhelm translation?

[hilary]

I'm answering that question quite a lot in emails lately.
What happened: someone notified Princeton, who own the copyright in the Wilhelm/ Baynes, of the usage on this site. They sent me a legal notice to remove it or pay a (large) license fee. And so I removed it - the page with it on, and also the copy in the free reading.

Princeton, of course, are quite right. A last reading I cast with the Flash program before removing the links to it - Hexagram 18, unchanging. Quite.

Hopefully I will manage to contact the original author of the Flash program and get the text changed, so you can have the program back. But I can't edit that myself, so it has to wait until I find someone who can.

 

[hmesker]

Richard Wilhem died on March 2, 1930, on this day exactly 70 years ago, which means that from today the copyright of all his original work has expired - including his (German) Yijing translation. But for the English translation there probably is a different copyright.

In other words, it is completely legitimate to make your own translation of Wilhelm's original German Yijing translation, as long as you make it distinctively different from Baynes' work, or can show that the translation is done by your hand and not copied from Baynes.

 

[Sparhawk]

Oddly enough, Richard Wilhelm's name, or works do, not appear in the database for Public Domain Works while James Legge does and is OK to use freely.

 

[hmesker]

Ehrm...his texts are only from today onwards in the public domain. Maybe they need just a little bit more time?

 

[Sparhawk]

Ehrm...his texts are only from today onwards in the public domain. Maybe they need just a little bit more time?

Oops, sorry, you are right. I didn't follow your link before posting.

Nevertheless, I wanted to use an excuse to post a link to that site I came across recently. Good to have a place to check for "obscure" works and their status.

 

[charly]

Of course, the problem resides in Cary Baynes, decessed I believ at 1977.

Does anybody know the history about how did she, or maybe Bolligen, get the copyuright ?

Bollingen began as a Mellon's fundation but passed from hand to hand in this carnivore world of editorial enterprices.

Their initial motive was to assure a wider audience in the English-speaking world for Jung's scientific works. In Paul Mellon's words, "The idea of the Collected Works of Jung might be considered the central core, the binding factor, not only of the Foundations' general direction but also of the ultimate intellectual temper of Bollingen Series as a whole."

The first editor of Bollingen Series was Mary Mellon. After her sudden death in 1946, John D. Barrett was editor until his retirement in 1969. During the years 1943-1960, the Series was published by Pantheon Books, Inc. of New York City. In 1961, when Pantheon Books became a division of Random House, Inc., the Foundation assumed publication, while Pantheon Books continued as distributor. In 1969 the Series was given to Princeton University Press to carry on and complete, and the Foundation became inactive.

From: http://press.princeton.edu/catalogs/series/bs.html

It says "the Series was given...". I wonder by whom.

Do the royalties serve for giving, from time to time, a good barbecue for the profit of R. Wilhelm spirit ?

Yours,

Charly

 

[charly]

About Bollingen:

The ''founding nurturer'' of the Bollingen adventure, to use Paul Mellon's phrase, was his first wife, Mary Conover Mellon. Mary Mellon began reading Carl Jung's work in 1934; in 1937 she and her husband were deeply impressed on hearing Jung speak to the Analytical Psychology Club in New York. ''Though I don't know what he means,'' Mary wrote after the lecture, ''this has something very much to do with me.'' She conceived of a plan that would make the work of Jung available in English in a uniform edition.

From:
WITH LOVE AND MONEY
By THOMAS BENDER
Published: November 14, 1982
At:
http://www.nytimes.com/1982/11/14/books/with-love-and-money.html

Ch.

 

[hilary]

Richard Wilhem died on March 2, 1930, on this day exactly 70 years ago, which means that from today the copyright of all his original work has expired - including his (German) Yijing translation. But for the English translation there probably is a different copyright.

In other words, it is completely legitimate to make your own translation of Wilhelm's original German Yijing translation, as long as you make it distinctively different from Baynes' work, or can show that the translation is done by your hand and not copied from Baynes.

So in my spare time... translate Wilhelm. Hm, OK. I'll let you know when I get round to that.

 

[charly]

I'm affraid that NYT articles cannot be free readable.

I found this:

THE BOLLINGEN ADVENTURE
...case is ''The I Ching,'' translated by Cary Baynes from the German of Richard Wilhelm. Mrs. Baynes was a woman from Louisville, Ky., who...and has sold about 550,000 copies. Mrs. Baynes, incidentally, had bought the rights from...

And a little bonus:

Translation of Ancient Tao Text Brings $130,000
By EDWIN McDOWELL
Published: February 16, 1988
After a spirited auction involving eight publishers, Harper & Row has agreed to pay $130,000 for a new translation of a Chinese book of philosophy and religion written more than 2,000 years ago. The amount is one of the highest ever paid to a translator, and it is certainly the most for a work in the public domain that has already been translated into English dozens of times.
...
Mr. Mitchell [the well paid translator] does not read or speak Chinese. He said he worked with a text that contained every Chinese character, as well as their English equivalents.

The book in question was the DAO DE JING, the translation:

http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/core9/phalsall/texts/taote-v3.html

Ch.

 

[charly]

So in my spare time... translate Wilhelm. Hm, OK. I'll let you know when I get round to that.

Hi, Hilary:

• Do get an accurate german copy, or make to type it.
• Parse the text word by word.
• Match each word with a good, if availabe, german- english dictionary.
• Choose the best english word for each german word, if you don't know what's the better, cast the coins. Beware of not to use Baynes words or at least not always.
• Turn to sew the words into phrases.
• Parse the continuous inserting dots here and there.

... and that's all!

Don't forget to register the copyright.

Yours,

Charly

 

[fkegan]

I'm answering that question quite a lot in emails lately.
What happened: someone notified Princeton, who own the copyright in the Wilhelm/ Baynes, of the usage on this site. They sent me a legal notice to remove it or pay a (large) license fee. And so I removed it - the page with it on, and also the copy in the free reading.

Princeton, of course, are quite right. A last reading I cast with the Flash program before removing the links to it - Hexagram 18, unchanging. Quite.

Hopefully I will manage to contact the original author of the Flash program and get the text changed, so you can have the program back. But I can't edit that myself, so it has to wait until I find someone who can.

Hi Hiliary,
Once you receive notice from legal counsel it is best to comply. Even if ultimately some court would rule in your favor it would be a long and costly road just to have a bit of convenience on your website.

The Wilhelm book is widely available online or in print.

One of the reasons on my website I use Gia-fu text though that didn't stop busybodies from attacking me and my copyright to my own typing...go figure.

Frank

 

[hilary]

Oh yes - I complied PDQ. Besides, they're right, and it's a relief to have it sorted out.

I heard from the Flash programmer, Balakrishna Iyer, and he's willing to change the Flash program to different text - and my publisher is happy for me to use excerpts in readings. So there will be more than just Legge there before too long.

(P.S. Charly - I can read German, and have excellent dictionaries to hand - it shouldn't be a problem, if I could find the time. Though 'foerdernd' is getting me down - really, 'furthers' is not very idiomatic English, but it's hard to think of an alternative.)

 

[fkegan]

Hi Hilary,

There is however something delightful about the prospect of you translating the Wilhelm as hypertext German poetry.

If you have any interest you are welcome to use my Gia-fu Taoist Translation.

As a compromise, Gia-fu rendered the Chinese that ends up as Perseverance Furthers as Fruitful to have Zest. So that would make 'foerdernd' into Fruitful in English, Perseverance Fruitful or Zest Fruitful. It is a matter of how much it is all about hard effort and determination or application/expression of one's essence which the Tao smiles upon with results.

I remember Gia-fu felt that getting the translation of the 4 slogans in the Judgment of hex 1 was the hallmark of the entire work. So it is worth the effort to be completely satisfied with your rendering of them. Of course, managing to complete the rest of the I Ching in about a month after that is probably not likely for you.

Frank

 

[hilary]

Yes - I've also gone for 'fruitful' and 'bears fruit' for li in my own version. But while I think it's OK as a translation for li, it doesn't exactly translate foerdernd.

You see why I'm not in a big hurry to get into this!

 

[fkegan]

Google Translate gives: facilitator which would suggest something between flux (in smelting) and midwife like 'brings forth' or 'produces' or 'completes'.

So, yes you need to take your time and find your own special English equivalent. Get out the dictionaries and thesaurus in both German and English. Google has 'promoting' and potency pharmaceuticals, so you have lots of room to maneuver.

Frank

 

[dryjoe]

Richard Wilhem died on March 2, 1930, on this day exactly 70 years ago ...

Oh!!! Is everybody a classicist here? What about 80?
Best, Joe

 

[hmesker]

Oh!!! Is everybody a classicist here? What about 80?
Best, Joe

1930+(2010x2012)/64=......???



You're right of course. Now everyone knows how good I am with maths.

 

[hilary]

(Not to mention all the rest of us who read and agreed )

 

[charly]

...
(P.S. Charly - I can read German, and have excellent dictionaries to hand - it shouldn't be a problem, if I could find the time. Though 'foerdernd' is getting me down - really, 'furthers' is not very idiomatic English, but it's hard to think of an alternative.)

Hi, Hilary:

Good to can read german. You can check W/B with the original.

Of course, all that work have sense only if you are interested in understanding Wilhelm. Most probably a good rendering from the german be similar to Cary Baynes version, she took a good time for working in it.

Say, I believe that further is pretty accurate for translating fërdern, but no so accurate for translating LI. You will have a conflict between loyalty to Wilhelm and loyalty to the chinese text.

Better maybe to continue with your own translation.

Only that I think about all the revenues that Princeton got, I don't know at what cost. Did Cary Baynes earn good money with this translation? It's said that she paid $250.- to the german editor that little trusted in the possibilities of selling the book.


Business are business.

Yours,

Charly

 

[hilary]

I do hope Cary Baynes made a fortune - just starting looking at this a little bit, I'm already finding that she's already thought of the most elegant translation ahead of me. My hurried efforts would not be nearly as good.

You're right about conflict between translating Wilhelm and translating Yi. Tricky to do a sincere job in translating the German when I have my own ideas about the meaning.

 

[charly]

About (c):

Internet users suspected of illegally downloading films, music or games face prison sentences and substantial fines under a deal being thrashed out between Hollywood corporations and European governments...

... new measures proposed under a controversial copyright treaty are also believed to include secret monitoring powers to catch illegal file-sharers...

...In the worst cases, the entertainment industry would be able to press for fines or prison sentences. Under current UK Government plans, the severest sanction would lead only to the suspension of the offender's ISP connection...

...The Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement (ACTA) is being negotiated between the EU and countries including the United States, Mexico, Korea and Japan. The powers being discussed go much further than those contained in the UK's Digital Economy Bill...

...A spokesman for the UK's ISP Association said that its members had concerns that the deal could lead to criminal sanctions beyond the civil penalties aimed at illegal file-sharing that are currently being proposed by the UK Government...

...David Lammy, the Minister of State for Intellectual Property, has said he could not put papers about ACTA in the House of Commons library because other countries wanted details kept secret...

From: Internet piracy crackdown by US studios
By Robert Verkaik, Home Affairs Editor.
The Independent, Monday, 1 March 2010
At: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/online/internet-piracy-crackdown-by-us-studios-1913673.html

Another sense for the word further...

Yours,

Charly

 

[charly]

...
Don't forget to register the copyright.
...

Maybe worse than (c) are patents:

Early last year, the government of Qiannan Bouyei and Miao prefecture of Guizhou province entrusted the Guizhou Society of Shui People with a patent for Shuishu, but found that Shuishu researcher Pan Chaolin from the Guizhou University for Nationalities had already acquired such a patent in 2004.

Pan's trademark for Shuishu consists of three words: le (to inscribe), shui (meaning water, or the Shui minority) and shu (meaning book or language). The patent is effective for 10 years - from 2006 to 2016 - and covers some 40 categories such as technological and scientific research, verification of art works, and seals for books and paintings. Anyone who wants to use the trademark of Shuishu in these areas must get Pan's approval.
From: A coveted patent
At: http://www.china.org.cn/culture/2008-09/16/content_16463360.htm

What is SHUISHU? A chinese scrip supposedly earlier that Shang's bone script! (1)

The man in shirt is Pan Chaolin:

And here there is a sample of ShuiShu:

The source I found is in spanish:

http://spanish.china.org.cn/culture/txt/2008-09/19/content_16505004_2.htm

In my country there is an old project about aplying a tax on breathing, described by Mujica Lainez, maybe inspired in an old comic from the magazine Caras y Caretas:

[el] General Azuceno Labestia del Campo, Conde del Postre. Era hijo del Ministro de hacienda a quién su Majestad otorgó el título de Conde del Postre porque su ingenio produjo el impuesto a la respiración.

... General Lily TheBeast of the Country, Earl of Dessert. He was the son of the Minister of Finance to whom His Majesty granted the title of 'Earl of the Dessert' because his wit bore the tax on breathing.

From: M. Mujica Lainez, De milagros y de melancolías.

Yours,

Charly

______________________________
(1) Non only Shui's script, also the women's script NUSHU has its patents:

In 2003, a private Chinese company got the patent for Nushu covering some 100 categories, mostly items used by women. A foreign company too got the patent to use Nushu as a cosmetics trademark abroad.
The same source.

 

[fkegan]

Hi Charly,

The intent of these intellectual property laws is to protect authors from having their work copied or stolen. It was passed more to allow corporate profiteers to muscle other folks with their popular titles. However, the protection is available to all. In the U.S. anything anyone or at least any American writes or has written is automatically protected for their entire lifetime plus 50 years. Registration is only required before one sues about infringement. So every shopping list for milk, eggs, and butter with or without a doodle is protected fully from anyone else stealing that paper and taking it to the Copy Center and making thousands of copies of it.

Frank

 

[charly]

... the protection is available to all. In the U.S. anything anyone or at least any American writes or has written is automatically protected for their entire lifetime plus 50 years...

Hi, Frank:

Let me see if I understand you:

IF I WRITE IN A PAPER THE WORD 'S H I T', NOBODY ELSE COULD USE IT WITHOUT MY PERMISSION?

For which reason can a guy patentate words from a language built 4.000 or more years ago? Only because the author didn't register it in his opportunity?

Yours,

Charly

 

[fkegan]

Copyright is the Right to control who makes copies of your work, nothing else!

Hi, Frank:

Let me see if I understand you:

IF I WRITE IN A PAPER THE WORD 'S H I T', NOBODY ELSE COULD USE IT WITHOUT MY PERMISSION?

For which reason can a guy patentate words from a language built 4.000 or more years ago? Only because the author didn't register it in his opportunity?

Yours,

Charly

Hi Charly,

NO! You can not patent words, that is against public policy and freedom of speech.

You can copyright every shopping list, tirade of curses, anything you write. Each person has copyright protection for THEIR shopping list, so you say milk, butter, eggs and I say milk, butter, eggs they are both copyright protected.

Which means if someone steals my shopping list and goes down to the copy store to make a myriad copies to sell on the street as pre-written shopping list for milk, butter, eggs they are in big trouble.

If they write out their own milk, butter, eggs after seeing me with my shopping list in the store, then that is fine.

Make sense now. You get control of making copies of your shopping list or anything else in exchange for publishing it so that others can read it and discover a better idea from that sharing.

Frank

 

[charly]

Hi Charly,
NO! You can not patent words, that is against public policy and freedom of speech...
Frank

Frank:

Maybe you didn't read the quote:

Early last year, the government of Qiannan Bouyei and Miao prefecture of Guizhou province entrusted the Guizhou Society of Shui People with a patent for Shuishu, but found that Shuishu researcher Pan Chaolin from the Guizhou University for Nationalities had already acquired such a patent in 2004.

Pan's trademark for Shuishu consists of three words: le (to inscribe), shui (meaning water, or the Shui minority) and shu (meaning book or language). The patent is effective for 10 years - from 2006 to 2016 - and covers some 40 categories such as technological and scientific research, verification of art works, and seals for books and paintings. Anyone who wants to use the trademark of Shuishu in these areas must get Pan's approval.
From: A coveted patent
At:
http://www.china.org.cn/culture/2008-09/16/content_16463360.htm

Charly

 

[fkegan]

Frank:

Maybe you didn't read the quote:
Early last year, the government of Qiannan Bouyei and Miao prefecture of Guizhou province entrusted the Guizhou Society of Shui People with a patent for Shuishu, but found that Shuishu researcher Pan Chaolin from the Guizhou University for Nationalities had already acquired such a patent in 2004.
Pan's trademark for Shuishu consists of three words:
Charly

Sorry Charly, English is a difficult language to understand. First, China is a different dispensation than the rest of the World, Rule of Law is not quite firmly established.

Patent, trademarks and copyrights though all Intellectual Property Law are very different. Although the official spoke about a Patent, what the story notes is that the other fellow had a trademark; hopefully due to his having good counsel who told him the rest of the world could recognize a Trademark of Chinese Words but not a patent.

The idea of claiming any power in China can be controlling for the use of any set of words, to quote Mao, would have to come from the barrel of a gun, and there remain too many who would prefer to use nuclear weapons than let the Chinese do that to the world.

So, it may be that there is risk of Nuclear War over Chinese frustration they can not command the International Community as they control Tibet; but the realities of Intellectual Property Law limit such usage and the Chances of getting the US Supreme Court to ever rule in the government of Red China's favor against U.S. scholars is remote.

All the Best,
Frank

 

[charly]

Sorry Charly, English is a difficult language to understand. ...
Patent, trademarks and copyrights though all Intellectual Property Law are very different ...

Hi, Frank:

Im not good in english, even less in laws.

Thanks God we may continue using the old words even when we have no authorship over it or little understanding.

At least all we pay for the consequences of the things we say although the words itself be not ours.

Yours,

Charly

 

[thunderwave]

I'm confused. How did this go from writing an I Ching translation of Wilhelm to Trademark? Copyright is different than Trademark, yes?

Anyways, it leads me to wonder if there is any (trademark) to the Bagua or hexagrams, I hope not. Nonetheless, I am curious to hear more about translating Chinese/German or just more of this conversation of Hilary's I Ching translation.

 

[charly]

I'm confused. How did this go from writing an I Ching translation of Wilhelm to Trademark? Copyright is different than Trademark, yes?

Anyways, it leads me to wonder if there is any (trademark) to the Bagua or hexagrams, I hope not. Nonetheless, I am curious to hear more about translating Chinese/German or just more of this conversation of Hilary's I Ching translation.

TW:

Living in a merchantilistic world, I believe that there migh have much patents on In Ching, Ba Gua, etc. If I remember well, Alfred Huang had patented the title "I Ching Master".

In Steve Marshall's page there is an article about US patents at:

http://www.biroco.com/yijing/patents.htm

Yours,

Charly