What if it makes no sense at all?

[hilary]

Hello all,

This is a question I'm looking at for that ebook I'm writing (and I really am writing it, now - so hopefully by New Year...). What are you supposed to do if you form your question with care and attention, consult with reverence - and get an answer you just cannot, for the life of you, connect with your question?

I asked Yi about this - what to do if you don't understand - and the answer was Hexagram 34 changing to 24. Before I splurge my own ideas on this over the page, what does anyone make of it? And also - what works for you?

Thanks!

 

[dharma]

Hilary,
when this happens to me I take it for granted that the answer Yi is giving me doesn't come close to anything I had in mind. This means that the appropriate response from me to the question requires me to open up to something I had not considered before. I suppose one could continue sitting with it in the hopes that enlightenment will come in time but I am more likely than not to seek some outside help at this point. I usually consult the tarot cards first and then get further input from other people if necessary.

<CENTER>In Lak'ech
<FONT SIZE="-1">(Mayan code of honor)
"I am Another Yourself"</FONT></CENTER>

 

[martin]

G. Spencer Brown wrote:
"To arrive at the simplest truth, as Newton knew and practiced, requires years of contemplation.
Not activity. Not reasoning. Not calculating. Not busy behavior of any kind. Not reading. Not talking. Not making an effort. Not thinking. Simply bearing in mind what it is one needs to know."

I think that 34 to 24 points in the same direction (well, hopefully it doesn't take years

)
34 tends to be overactive, frantic, pushy, greedy. It corresponds to a state of mind that is gross, noisy and narrow. There is too much desire in it.
In such a state the inner channels are blocked and we cannot hear what the oracle tries to say.

In 24 something comes from deep within and rises slowly to the surface, like an air-bell.
The overall state is one of receptivity, listening, openness, emptiness.
"Not busy behavior of any kind ... Not making an effort"

It requires trust. The answer will come sooner or later. Maybe in the morning when we awake after a good nights sleep.
The basic idea is "Do not try to find it. It is trying to find you and your frantic searching only hinders it."
And "it" can be everything, from a lost ring to the Universal Spirit ...

 

[cal val]

Hilary...

One of the answers the Yi gave me when I was consulting further to try to understand an answer that didn't connect was...Hex 20. The Yi counselled me in that hexagram that the answer was not always about my limited perspective. They were showing me their perspective, another's perspective...a bigger perspective...all very important and very relevant to my path.

Hex 34...thunder above the heavens is the image of the strength of greatness. The Superior Man does not tread a path that is not in accord with established order. This is the point in this reading where I put the lessons of Hex 20 into play. Whose order? Whose got the power in Hex 34?

All the lines the Yi gave you in their answer caution against an abuse of power. Nine in the third place counsels that the inferior man revels in the little power that he has. Consequently, he ends up butting against a hedge, getting his horns entangled. A superior man does not.

In hexagram 24, the Yi is gently turning our heards around to look at the lessons about power in hexagram 34...they are gently reminding us to keep things in perspective. They are very gently taking their power back from those of us who assume we have it all. In hexagram 34 to 24 they are telling us that, with the answer that didn't connect to the question, they are trying to lead us back to a path that accords with the established order.

Cheerio the noo,

Val

 

[hilary]

I had a good feeling about putting this question out here... clever old me...

After looking at this one for a while, I started asking what function hedges served - and realised that they mainly stop your herds from wandering, and secondly mark them off as yours.

I think maybe the hedges in two of the three moving lines are like the question that we use - carefully, intelligently... - to 'corral' the universe of available meaning and messages so that we can relate it to our perspective. So the overall idea seems to be there is something wrong with our hedge-laying. The third line mentions 'danger' - 'angry ghosts', something neglected and demanding attention. Which is more or less exactly what Dharma said - 'open up to something I hadn't considered before.' Maybe this is the kind of move that requires a great cart to shift all the baggage? (A cart is pretty well the opposite of a hedge.)

By the way, #24 is coming up as relating hexagram again and again in questions about divination. (I'm asking a lot - hoping to get the expert writing the book here

)

Val and Martin, the ideas you're giving me on 34 are interesting... Val, did you know 20 and 34 are opposites? One steps back and allows space for spirit to enter, the other stands up and embodies it - at least, that's one way to describe the contrast. 34 is very self-possessed (having learned the lessons of 33) and full of mature power - and can certainly injure himself (or herself) as a result. Power - maybe the kind that 'knows' the Yi and 'uses' it? (Ha!)

What do you think breaks the hedge apart in the end?

 

[dharma]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

What do you think breaks the hedge apart in the end?<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE> Assuming the hedges represent the boundaries of our present understanding then we need to break through this limited comprehension by recognizing that that the angle of our question, which emerged from this narrow perspective, and is highly biased because of this restriction, must be changed. Therefore, asking a different question (but working with the same hexagrams) seems to me to be what allows us to break through the hedge. Ultimately, our misunderstanding is due to the fact that we are attempting to fit the answer we are getting to a question that is somehow inapplicable or irrelevant under the circumstances.

<CENTER>In Lak'ech
<FONT SIZE="-1">(Mayan code of honor)
"I am Another Yourself"</FONT></CENTER>

 

[dharma]

BTW, I don't mean a completely different question but rather to 'rephrase' the original one - to reconsider the angle of your expectation.

<CENTER>In Lak'ech
<FONT SIZE="-1">(Mayan code of honor)
"I am Another Yourself"</FONT></CENTER>

 

[cal val]

Hilary...

You said:

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

After looking at this one for a while, I started asking what function hedges served - and realised that they mainly stop your herds from wandering, and secondly mark them off as yours.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's one perspective of hedges, but there is that narrow my perspective of the hedge the Yi has cautioned me about. What if I didn't make the hedges? Then what purpose do they serve?

Does the hedge break apart? Or does the goat work slowly and patiently to get himself disentangled from the hedge? Does the knot in your delicate gold chain just disappear? Or do you work slowly, patiently and carefully to undo it?

If we back away from our question, listen to the answer the Yi gave us, contemplate it, maybe ask the Yi for further light on it, cultivate patience and let understanding come over time, rather than pushing toward an answer to the question we asked...a question the Yi obviously didn't want to answer...didn't want us to focus on...yet, we will disentangle ourselves from the hedge.

Whether they're man-made, earth-made, heaven-made or self-made, what purpose do hedges serve? Particularly in light of the counsel in hexagram 34 that "the superior man does not tread upon paths that do not accord with established order," one purpose might be that they are the hedgerow along our path.

Cheerio the noo,

Val

 

[chrislofting]

Hilary,

you wrote:
> This is a question I'm looking at for that ebook I'm writing
> (and I really am writing it, now - so hopefully by New
> Year...). What are you supposed to do if you form your
> question with care and attention, consult with reverence -
> and get an answer you just cannot, for the life of you,
> connect with your question?
>
> I asked Yi about this - what to do if you don't understand -
> and the answer was Hexagram 34 changing to 24. Before I
> splurge my own ideas on this over the page, what does anyone
> make of it? And also - what works for you?
>

(1) the WHOLE of the I Ching is applicable at any moment and so are all of its PARTS, the 64 hexagrams etc. (or eight trigrams or 4096 dodecagrams etc, depends on what scale you wish to work with)

(2) The LOCAL conditions of the moment will SORT the parts of the I Ching into a string from 'best fit' to 'worst fit'.

(3) Our consciousness only focuses on ONE hexagram rather than all, and when using a random access method so there is only a 1 in 64 chance of the 'best fit' hexagram coming up.

(4) This use of randomness means we can get a hexagram that is, is closer to, 'worst fit' than 'best fit'. In these conditions simply deriving the opposite in structure should give a better idea of the situation in that it will move you '
up' the list to the 'best fit' end.

(5) One can get a better idea of the 'best fit' by using the more proactive questions approach - http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/lofting/proact3.html - the price being that there is some involvement of oneself in the process beyond 'tossing coins' etc ;-)

(6) Given a 'best fit' one can use the matrices listed in my matrix pages to derive the full string of parts.

Chris.

 

[louise]

Returning to Vals question "Whos order is the established order?" Often wondered when I get this - does it mean the order that is prevalent/dominant in the circumstance/situation you are in ?

 

[gene]

A couple things that come up in the Wilhelm Baynes versions about the hexagram as a whole is that "We rely entirely in our own power and forget to ask what is right." The same can be true in seeking the truth from the I Ching. When we get an answer we don't understand, it is necessary to do everything we can to understand it, but beyond that, it is permissible to ask for clarification. We often don't understand the answer because we have a mental block in respect to the question. This can also happen due to not having enough life experience to understand something on a higher level. While the student asks only once, he can ask once on each level. The W.B. version also says "we may not wait for the right time." Often we do not understand a hexagram because certain things have not happened that once they happen give us a new light on the situation. Once they happen then we understand on a different level.

The second line tells us to maintain an inner equilibrium and be perservering. Sometimes we have to accept that we do not presently understand the answer but by maintaining inner equilibrium, the time will come, later, that we can forge ahead.

The third line says, "the inferior man works through power..." All to often we may try to force an answer when now is available. We hesitate to wait for our intuition to come up with an answer, which may depend on "Waiting for the right time." In line four the hedge opens. This may be the final illumination brought about by the intuition, which comes when it will. (The rain falls when it will, hex 9) The hedge may be that mental block that keeps us from understanding something we are not ready to understand. When the lesson has been learned, and we have matured, and suddenly something comes to us like a flash of light, (Upper trigram Chen) then we are ready for a new understanding of something that made more sense to us before
(We cannot understand a thing before we have had the lessons that prepare us for it.) In hexagram 34 it is only the fourth line that has true power. Only it pushes upward into an empty space.

The nuclear hexagram here is forty three. In forty three it must be answered truthfully. "It is necessary to notify one's own city." The city is our dwelling place, here our own conscious mind. What is in the subconscious cannot be called forth at will by the conscious, but it can reveal itself in a flash, and in 34's upper trigram chen.

The hexagram (34) as a whole looks like the trigram tui with its lines doubled. With Tui, which means mouth, it is necessary to get together with friends, "for discussion and practice." Here is another hint in times like these, is to get help, either from our peer or from the sayings of teachings of antiquity.The upper nuclear trigram is also tui, which indicates a mouth or talking. It could mean also not hesitating to ask the I ching for further help or clarification.

Two ideas about the "established order." Any society has a culture that distinguishes it from other cultures. Most cultures have their own concept of manners and protocol. The superior man does not dare deviate from this path. It is a matter of tradition. The second idea...being in harmony with the established order is being in harmony with the Dao. In western culture we might say "giving up our will to the will of G-d." In line 5, losing the goat with ease, the ease is the same word yi, as in the I Ching. So it can mean "losing the goat, (brute force without reason) through change or transformation. it is using the "easy" way, which is the way of the Dao. We surrender our will to the will of the cosmos. As such, we follow the easy way. Therefore we do not bring down calamity on ourselves, and our self willfulness and karma do not get us caught in the hedge.

 

[cal val]

Gene...

What about when one discovers, after patient waiting for enlightenment, that the Yi didn't even address the question at all, but gave one an answer about something totally different, and in one's discovery process, one ascertains that the goal behind the question was not relevant to following one's course at all, but, in fact, would have been dangerous to following one's course, and what the Yi did tell one was of paramount importance to following one's course?

Yes Gene...that is all one sentence...*grin*

Cheerio the noo,

Val

 

[gene]

Val

If I have a clue what you are talking about...Sometimes there is a question behind the question, or a question the I Ching thinks is more important to you. In such cases hopefully we will understand or come to understand what it really relates to.

Gene

 

[cal val]

Gene...

No question behind the question...I'm not that kind of person. I can handle the truth...and you should know that by now...if you've read any of my posts...including those you've responded to. Look at all the truth I've faced since joining this forum. Look at my hex 26 run. Everything I asked they answered hex 26...and hex 26 was not then, nor is it now an appropriate answer to the questions I was asking.

And that's my point. The Yi has ignored some of my questions and led me on a journey to my own inner truth instead with their answers. As a consequence, I've learned that the things I was trying to achieve and asking about would only have led me away from a fulfilling life. And, as a result of the journey to my own inner truth, I've learned that I was trying to achieve those other things because I didn't have the guts to face, want and go after my deepest desires...my dreams.

My question to you is how does your interpretation of hex 34 to 24 reflect that particular phenomenon.

Thanks!

Val

 

[martin]

Hi Val,

I don't know what Gene will say but I'm glad that you clarified your long sentence.
My horns got entangled when I tried to understand it.
Then I remembered Spencer Brown, ceased all activity and went to bed.
But I couldn't sleep.
So I started to count goats and ended up with 612 goats entangled in that hedge of yours!

No, no, don't

, this is a very serious situation, 612 goats, do you have any idea how many goats that are?

But then your post came and I saw the Light and all the 612 goats also saw the Light and .. well, what can I say, thank you!

If you would like to

now, please go ahead.

Martin

 

[gene]

Well, first off, Val, I have never run into that kind of situation. Secondly, when I say question behind the question, I am not talking about a contrived way to try to fool the I Ching. I am talking about the I Ching knowing more about us and what we really know than we do. And it knows what the real question is, and what we really need to know, better than we do. The question that Hilary asked, if I remember right is what do we do when we don't understand the answer the I ching is giving us. For your question, maybe you should ask again and see how the oracle answers. The fact of the matter is, Val, no matter how mature we think we are, we have a ways to go, and all of us lie to ourselves constantly. The I Ching can help us know where we are not truthful with ourselves. This may not be the answer you want, but it is the best I can give under these circumstances.

Just one more thing. This is why it is often best for us to ask someone else when we want a really serious reading. When we read for ourselves we are not objective, we are subjective, and this can skewer the answer. Anyone who has incarnated into a physical body has lessons to learn. This includes all of us. There are no exceptions. "The heart is desperately wicked, and deceitful above all things, who can know it?" And again, "As he thinketh in his heart, (the subconscious), so is he." If we know ourselves we become masters, and have no further need to reincarnate. Until we do, we are subject to error, especially in reading oracles.

Gene

 

[gene]

Val

I think I totally misread your post. What it sounds like you are saying is right in line with what Hilary was asking. Yes, the I Ching will guide us in a direction that is for our personal growth. It will often misdirect us into things that are more important than who we would best have a relationship with. I think the I Ching likes you Val. And I am sorry I so misread your post.

Gene

 

[cal val]

Gene...

PHEW! I'm so happy you posted that follow-up post. I was really worried about you for a few minutes there.

You said: "Well, first off, Val, I have never run into that kind of situation."

And you have. You witnessed it right here in this forum. Like I said in my previous post, the hex 26 thread is a perfect example -- http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/92/640.html?1052094189. You posted to that thread.

I opened it with: "What do you suppose the I Ching is trying to tell me? I don't get it. No matter what I ask...no matter the subject...for the past week I keep getting Hex 26. Sometimes I get a changing line...usually six in the fourth place, but usually I don't."

Regarding lying to ourselves about the answers, etc., you said: "Just one more thing. This is why it is often best for us to ask someone else when we want a really serious reading." That's why I posted in this forum all the questions and answers that did not connect...to get others' perspectives on them, and the added perspectives, yours included, only confirmed that the Yi was not answering the questions at all.

And to be honest, to "hear" you "advising" back to me pretty much what I had just said about myself and my recent experiences and attempts to understand the Yi was a bit perplexing. I wondered if you had read my post or any of my posts for that matter. Because I'm the one lately who starts out my posts by saying "The Yi is not telling me what I want to know, but what I need to know" -- http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/92/898.html?1062727747. There are at least two more where I say the same thing about the answers I've gotten.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, Gene. I can rest easy tonight knowing you haven't completely lost your mind. You're still only as crazy as the rest of us...*grin*

Peace, love and understanding,

Val

 

[cal val]

Martin...

I was feeling a bit light-hearted and mischievous when I composed that "one sentence question." I knew the use of the pronoun 'one' would befuddle it even more. I thought my short little *grinning* sentence made my tone clear.

I didn't think anyone would react quite the way you and Gene did. I learned my lesson. I'll never make that mistake again.

Cheerio the noo,

Val

PS...Notice the length of my sentences in this post? I'm feeling mischievous again... *grin*