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What kind of I Ching faith?

M

meng

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Introversion and extroversion seem part of the ordinary identification with the automatism, which blocks the awareness of one's Buddha baby

Naw. Being an introvert or extrovert has nothing to do with a person's awareness, either can be aware or unaware, in or not in Buddha baby.

Automatism is too general of a word to be of much use here, other than to further cloud the water. It joins other vast and meaningless words, like some dark opposing side of "spiritual" and "wisdom". Behind every wise man is a dumb ass.
 
M

meng

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automatism

"I give the name of symptomatic acts to those acts which people perform, as we say, automatically, unconsciously, without attending to them, or as if in a moment of distraction" (p. 76). Then, in the metapsychological texts, the word is used in three limited senses: a) the regulation of (unconscious) automatic processes by the pleasure principle (Beyond the Pleasure Principle, 1920g); b) so-called "automatic" anxiety when it is a question of the origin or the "automatic" appearance of anxiety (Inhibitions, Symptoms, and Anxiety, 1926d); and occasionally, c) the process of repression (1926d). - Freud

The noun Automatismus, "automatism," is also very rarely found in Freud's works. When Freud refers to it in Inhibition, Symptoms, and Anxiety in relation to the process of repression, he prefers the term "compulsion to repeat": "The new impulse will run its course under an automatic influence—or, as I should prefer to say, under the influence of the compulsion to repeat. It will follow the same path as the earlier repressed impulse, as if the danger-situation that had been overcome still existed" (p. 153). In the New Introductory Lectures (1933a [1932]), the term is directly connected to the principle of pleasure-unpleasure, in a sense essentially based on the (automatic) mode of regulation of unconscious processes, but that merges with anxiety and repression.

The term was used more frequently by Jacques Lacan, specifically starting in the fifties, when, under the influence of cybernetics, the question of automatons was on his mind. And so pure automatism became an essentially psychotic phenomenon.

This isn't the same as introvert/extrovert.
 
M

meng

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However, automatism (the original meaning for it) can play a role in the kind of debilitating inhibition I referred to earlier to Em. But clearly, there's a difference from this habitual ritualism of automatism and a naturally introverted personality.

It's not uncommon either for outrageously outgoing performers to live introverted private lives. So I don't mean to overplay the intro/outro, I was originally just responding to Em's question about it.
 

lloyd

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Rutt makes sense on Jung on page 56 of his book Zhouyi: " ... the psychological element recognized by Jung was involved in the process from early times".
In other words, we may do well without Jung and/or Wilhelm. Rutt's commentary on Jung's I Ching consults (in the introduction to the Wilhelm edition) indicates the extremely ego-centric thought patterns of Jung; which run through all of his work.
Thomas Cleary made very interesting comments on Jungian perceptions of eastern ways, in the footnotes to his translation of "The Secret of the Golden Flower".
 

pantherpanther

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Naw. Being an introvert or extrovert has nothing to do with a person's awareness, either can be aware or unaware, in or not in Buddha baby.

Automatism is too general of a word to be of much use here, other than to further cloud the water. It joins other vast and meaningless words, like some dark opposing side of "spiritual" and "wisdom". Behind every wise man is a dumb ass.

I defined the term automatism, and how it worked : the three organic functions of the human being (thinking, feeling,sensation) . There have been many other words used: "the body," "the natural man" ( which the Bible refers to as "dust"), "the vehicle," etc. The practice I described is about becoming aware, "waking up."
It is something one does or doesn't work at and experience. There are proven methods.

Automatism is just a word. How about "machine"? The ordinary "waking state" is one in which there is no consciousness of the mechanical reactions of the three functions. One can live their whole life without consciousness, identified with the acquired reactions of their functions to shocks from outside. And that is pretty much how the general life of humanity is, which we all have to learn to live with from birth to death.
We don't have to have to be the puppet of our reactions to outside shocks. We may be highly trained and educated, yet still live as a machine, mechanically.
 
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M

meng

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Automatism is just a word.

With a very specific meaning, which (am I being redundant?) you continue to misuse, which is most common. Just as the other words I've sighted, i.e. spiritual and wisdom. How about holy? Sanctified? Yes, just words as they're used commonly.
 
M

meng

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The ordinary "waking state" is one in which there is no consciousness of the mechanical reactions of the three functions. One can live their whole life without consciousness, identified with the acquired reactions of their functions to shocks from outside. And that is pretty much how the general life of humanity is, which we all have to learn to live with from birth to death.
We don't have to have to be the puppet of our reactions to outside shocks. We may be highly trained and educated, yet still live as a machine, mechanically.

I don't know what waking state you're talking about, or why you think only a certain spiritual elite can gain enough enlightenment to be conscious of being conscious. I think you must be underestimating an awful lot of people. "It doesn't take a weatherman to know which way the wind blows."
 

pantherpanther

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With a very specific meaning, which (am I being redundant?) you continue to misuse, which is most common. Just as the other words I've sighted, i.e. spiritual and wisdom. How about holy? Sanctified? Yes, just words as they're used commonly.

My comments addressed yours on Suzuki, Zen and the Buddha , yes? All I said about introversion and extroversion was that they "seem part of the ordinary identification with the automatism, which blocks the awareness of one's Buddha baby." I was suggesting they are aspects of different personality types as described by different psychologists. In short, the Zen practice of Suzuki is for any type - introverted, extraverted, whatever.

I offered you other terms for the automatism : the machine, the body, the natural man, the vehicle. Automatism has common definitions,although there are specialized meanings found in various fields. Perhaps "the machine" is the most easily understood, and least traditional, synonym for what I meant by the automatism.

Some common definitions for automatism :
noun.[From Latin automaton]
The state or quality of being automatic.
Automatic mechanical action.
Philosophy. The theory that the body is a machine whose functions are accompanied but not controlled by consciousness.
Physiology.
The involuntary functioning of an organ or other body structure that is not under conscious control, such as the beating of the heart or the dilation of the pupil of the eye.
The reflexive action of a body part.
Psychology. Mechanical, seemingly aimless behavior characteristic of various mental disorders.
Law .An act done by a person who is not conscious of what he is doing.
 
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pantherpanther

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I don't know what waking state you're talking about, or why you think only a certain spiritual elite can gain enough enlightenment to be conscious of being conscious. I think you must be underestimating an awful lot of people. "It doesn't take a weatherman to know which way the wind blows."

It was you who introduced the teaching of Suzuki. Waking state is recognized in many traditions as having the qualities I mentioned, and Suzuki defined it as I did. What is this nonsense about elitism? The teaching is available for all, isn't it? Every individual is different. What is learned is up to each.
____________________________________________________________________________________

THE SENSE OF ZEN
D .T. Suzuki

We can say that Zen liberates all the energies properly and naturally stored in each of us, which are in ordinary circumstances cramped and distorted so that they find no adequate channel for activity.

This body of ours is something like an electric battery in which a mysterious power latently lies. When this power is not properly brought into operation, it either grows mouldy and withers away or is warped and expresses itself abnormally. It is the object of Zen, therefore, to save us from going crazy or being crippled. This is what I mean by freedom, giving free play to all the creative and benevolent impulses inherently lying in our hearts. Generally, we are blind to this fact, that we are in possession of all the necessary faculties that will make us happy and loving towards one another. All the struggles that we see around us come from this ignorance. Zen, therefore, wants us to open a "third eye," as Buddhists call it, to the hitherto undreamed-of region shut away from us through our own ignorance. When the cloud of ignorance disappears, the infinity of the heavens is manifested, where we see for the first time into the nature of our own being. We now know the signification of life, we know that it is not blind striving, nor is it a mere display of brutal forces, but that while we know not definitely what the ultimate purport of life is, there is something in it that makes us feel infinitely blessed in the living of it and remain quite contented with it in all its evolution, without raising questions or entertaining pessimistic doubts.
 
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pantherpanther

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“Knowledge can be acquired by a suitable and complete study, no matter what the starting point is. Only one must know how to ‘learn.’ What is nearest to us is man; and you are the nearest of all men to yourself. Begin with the study of yourself; remember the saying ‘Know thyself.’” -- G.I. Gurdjieff
 

em ching

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This body of ours is something like an electric battery in which a mysterious power latently lies. When this power is not properly brought into operation, it either grows mouldy and withers away or is warped and expresses itself abnormally. It is the object of Zen, therefore, to save us from going crazy or being crippled. This is what I mean by freedom, giving free play to all the creative and benevolent impulses inherently lying in our hearts. Generally, we are blind to this fact, that we are in possession of all the necessary faculties that will make us happy and loving towards one another. All the struggles that we see around us come from this ignorance. Zen, therefore, wants us to open a "third eye," as Buddhists call it, to the hitherto undreamed-of region shut away from us through our own ignorance. When the cloud of ignorance disappears, the infinity of the heavens is manifested, where we see for the first time into the nature of our own being. We now know the signification of life, we know that it is not blind striving, nor is it a mere display of brutal forces, but that while we know not definitely what the ultimate purport of life is, there is something in it that makes us feel infinitely blessed in the living of it and remain quite contented with it in all its evolution, without raising questions or entertaining pessimistic doubts.

That's brilliant - made me laugh too, with some relief.
I have a problem with self-censorship, over-analyzing, worrying too much what people think etc.
Last night I asked the I Ching to comment on how to find a sense of Freedom of self-expression and lose the self-censorship:

Hex 40
Wow blown away by that. Liberation!
What I'm after :rolleyes:

Wilhelm... 'A time of deliverance from a burdensome pressure has a liberating and stimulating effect on life... a thunderstorm clears the air... However when failings come to light he does not dwell on them; he simply passes over mistakes, the unintentional transgressions, just as thunder dies away... water washes everything clean'.

:):bows:
 

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