What must I learn? 11 (1,6) 18

[oponopono]

hi everyone,

whenever I phrase a question like this ("What is the lesson for me to learn in situation X?") I always find it hard to understand the answer, and I always think of that saying "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" (in my language it is actually a donkey!) and how much the resistance to new insights blocks my ability to understand the answers.

So i hope this means something to you and that you help me by translating it

I seem to be caught again in a situation - a painful one - in which I have been many times before. The only thing different is that I seem to be taking it much more lightly, which already feels like achievement. Well, it involves a man and a connection that built up but has proven not to last. I'm in this phase of moving on, letting go, with much less emotional tension than in previous times but hey, I'm aware Im HERE AGAIN!

so I asked: "What must I learn from this repeated situation?" 11 (1,6) 18

I take it I am learning to react with more peace, while working and all the wounds and issues this brings up. But the lines? I should be pulling weeds and making distinctions? What is 11,6 > 26? Is the book saying I'm gonna collapse back on old habits? Can you elaborate a bit on these two?

thanks
yoana

 

[pocossin]

What must I learn from this repeated situation?
11.1.6 > 18

The casting suggests that what at first appears good is often bad. Related sayings: The grass looks greener on the other side of the fence. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Take the cash and let the credit go. In sum, don't waste opportunities that exist now.

 

[oponopono]

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Take the cash and let the credit go. In sum, don't waste opportunities that exist now.

pocossin, thanks for that (very surprising) view. I'm not sure I get it. Is this regarding him? Should I not move on and let him go, you mean?

Just for context, this is a guy that seems to care about me but is 200% passive. If I write, invite, organize, show up, he is great. He complies with everything and we have great fun, but he NEVER initiates anything. If I wait silently, like I have now for a week, he says nothing. I just feel I deserve a bit more investment. What this situation made me realize is that I am not afraid of staying single anymore. Given his attitude I feel I rather stay single than have this little cute puppy come with as long as I take him on a leash... that's not a partner, that's a pet...!

Am I being unfair?
Is this reading of yours based in line 6?
I would be so thankful if you could elaborate a bit on your feedback
thank you*
:bows:

 

[pocossin]

pocossin, thanks for that (very surprising) view. I'm not sure I get it. Is this regarding him? Should I not move on and let him go, you mean?

No, I don't mean that. You have no idea how hard it is to be a traditional male in modern feminized, political-correctness society. I have sympathy for the guy. I worked with a man (traditional east European) whose son's girlfriend approached the family and asked for the hand of his son in marriage. He was disgusted because son married a Baptist instead of a Greek Orthodox, but he ended up with a grandson of which he should have been proud. I respect that woman for doing what was best for all concerned.

this is a guy that seems to care about me but is 200% passive.

You've got to expect that. It's the era of Kali when male initiative is suppressed in western culture. If you go with this guy, be prepared to exercise the initiative. Especially, be prepared to keep a close rein on family financial matters. It isn't that he doesn't love you and want you. It's that male initiative is suppressed by current western PC culture. It's suffocating. That, truth be told, is what make Putin and ISIS look so good.

I just feel I deserve a bit more investment.

You do deserve more, and if the cultural atmosphere were different, you would get more. The anti-male lesbian freedom of political correctness is repressive for the average male.

What this situation made me realize is that I am not afraid of staying single anymore. Given his attitude I feel I rather stay single than have this little cute puppy come with as long as I take him on a leash... that's not a partner, that's a pet...!

Puppies grow. Can this guy grow into the kind of man you want? If he can, keep him on a leash. Else, let him go.

Am I being unfair?

Not at all. If your needs will never be met, run.

Is this reading of yours based in line 6?

Neither on line 6 nor on line 1. I read hexagrams rather that lines. The emblem of hexagram 11 is a clump of grass, each blade holding to others (yang Wood). Hexagram 18 is a jue (wine pitcher) inverted, implying a loss of vitality (yin Water). Specifically, the loss of vitality in a ruling family. From this I concluded that things will not turn out as you wish if your expectations are traditional but could otherwise.

 

[Trojina]

whenever I phrase a question like this ("What is the lesson for me to learn in situation X?") I always find it hard to understand the answer, and I always think of that saying "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" (in my language it is actually a donkey!) and how much the resistance to new insights blocks my ability to understand the answers.

So i hope this means something to you and that you help me by translating it

There may not be any deep karma etc here it is just simple learning from reality...Not through fault or ignorance on your part but just part of being who you are in the world today.

I seem to be caught again in a situation - a painful one - in which I have been many times before. The only thing different is that I seem to be taking it much more lightly, which already feels like achievement. Well, it involves a man and a connection that built up but has proven not to last. I'm in this phase of moving on, letting go, with much less emotional tension than in previous times but hey, I'm aware Im HERE AGAIN!

so I asked: "What must I learn from this repeated situation?" 11 (1,6) 18

Yes I think it is an achievement...and the answer I feel shows that. You are dealing with the flow (11)of decay (18)

I take it I am learning to react with more peace, while working and all the wounds and issues this brings up. But the lines? I should be pulling weeds and making distinctions? What is 11,6 > 26? Is the book saying I'm gonna collapse back on old habits? Can you elaborate a bit on these two?

11 is anything but 'peace', it's one of those badly named hexagrams. It is flow, where heaven and earth interact.....except here, in your reading they kind of totally miss one another in the 'flow' of passing. I have the image of 2 people on 2 escalators in a mall going different directions. They wave and try to speak but the current, the flow, is moving to fast for them to have any kind of exchange. You may have another word for escalators...you know moving staircases in shopping centres and airports and so on. That image in my head is so strong I wonder if it is any use to you as a metaphor for what might be happening ? It also makes me think of over fast digestion....in one end and out of the other before the body has had chance to absorb the nutrients. Those are the images that come to me for this cast. They may have meaning for you or may be the product of my imagination.

Hmmm I am feeling somewhere in this you might be being advised to


S L O W D O W N

You may have heard my ideas about lines 1 and 6 moving in a reading Something is experienced in one go, all at once, with the relating hexagram making it's presence felt very strongly in the middle of that situation. I have no idea how rushing without stopping to digest might answer your query but it is an image for you to play with.

In 11.1 one finds kindred spirits. In 11.6 what has been held to and defended has vanished and one is free to move on. With 18 here there may be an old pattern that engenders this pace of development which doesn't lend itself to things developing at a sustainable pace.

Just for context, this is a guy that seems to care about me but is 200% passive. If I write, invite, organize, show up, he is great. He complies with everything and we have great fun, but he NEVER initiates anything. If I wait silently, like I have now for a week, he says nothing. I just feel I deserve a bit more investment. What this situation made me realize is that I am not afraid of staying single anymore. Given his attitude I feel I rather stay single than have this little cute puppy come with as long as I take him on a leash... that's not a partner, that's a pet...!

Am I being unfair?
Is this reading of yours based in line 6?

Of course you aren't being unfair. Think of this situation as if it were transplanted to you and a friend. It just wouldn't work would it ? You need to feel the other is interested enough to have a relationship.
Would you remain friends with someone if it were always only you who called them ?


Someone once told me she suddenly realised she was always the one who contacted her friend. So she decided to see what would happen if she didn't and waited for the friend to take the initiative. The friend never got in touch with her again. It seemed the friend liked her well enough but simply didn't have the interest or motivation to put energy into maintaining the connection. It does take two to Tango !

Here I think you are speaking of a relationship with a man you think of romantically ....Well I can't think of anything less romantic than always having to call him....Personally I would stop contacting him and see what happens. If he doesn't contact you you can assume he lacks interest.

But all that is just plain common sense about give and take in relationships....

I think there is another factor here about rushing, the need to slow down ? I don't know how this might apply but I wonder if you look to your past (because of the 18) have you developed a pattern of thinking relationships had to happen all at once ? For example did your parents keep moving you to different places so that you had to learn to develop sort of immediate bonds that could not go on beyond a certain point ? With 18 it is worth thinking about your parent's ways of relating, how they taught you, (deliberately or not) to have relationships.

OR/AND

the cast may show that falling into this old pattern is something you are coming to discard. That is you are replaying it in order to fully know this isn't what you need. That making all the moves to someone doesn't bring you satisfaction and that you need full reciprocation.

Reciprocation takes time. You have to wait for the other to respond. If you are too eager then they never get the chance to reciprocate..or not. It seems to me you need to have the time and space to really hear and feel if the other reciprocates. If they do not then move on...it isn't what you need.

In moving on more quickly perhaps you can develop new patterns that provide strong reciprocal relationships. The other returning your interest is a condition of that relationship continuing. That hardly needs saying but I'm saying it as I wonder if somewhere along the line you learned it was 'normal' for one person to show all the interest and have a pretty solo/one sided relationship ?

 

[Trojina]

Oh and BTW yang change pattern here is 27...this is about needs being filled. The yin pattern pattern is 28, the need to go beyond this whole pattern of nourishment that is not sustainable.

I think this guy may be the final time you enact this old 18 pattern. In 28 one must move on alone....so I think being happy with being single is a good starting point for transcending this pattern. From there perhaps you can come to a whole different basis , a whole new idea of what a good relationship looks like.

OTOH you may find if you don't keep calling him he might miss you and call you ....In which case that old 18 pattern is also transcended.

As a practical task for this cast you might try riding escalators and trying to make eye contact with folks on the escalator going the other way....just to see how it feels and if it feels anything like that old 18 pattern of relating.


I don't know quite what the game is here....but the image is what came to me for the cast


[video=youtube;XqxKECCUv8I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqxKECCUv8I&feature=player_detailpage#t=6[/video]


I guess the other aspect of that image is people simply going in different directions too fast to make any kind of meaningful contact. If one got used to that kind of interaction as normal (in metaphorical terms) one can see how frustrating it would be.

 

[oponopono]

dear pocossin and dear trojina

thank you so much! Both your posts triggered a lot of insights and thought processes in me so it took me a while to find my reaction. As the days pass I feel stronger and stronger about his silence and that it shows my choice was the right one. Trojina, what you advise me to do, leave the contact alone and see if he does anything, was exactly what I had been doing for a week at the time I asked this question. When I asked it was because I was already coming to terms with the evidence that he is not going to pursue or invest, so anything that happens depends on my own initiative. Right now I feel very relieved, and centered in myself, and have no urge to chase anyone who doesn’t value me enough to drop me a line…

You have no idea how hard it is to be a traditional male in modern feminized, political-correctness society. I have sympathy for the guy.

Nevertheless I do appreciate you giving me a perspective on the other side, pocossin. I am a very independent woman who supports herself in every possible sense, and I am aware that intimidates most men. but then again, the partner I am looking for is not “most men”. If that reliable and proactive man does not exist in this zeitgeist then this is it - I am better of alone.

Puppies grow. Can this guy grow into the kind of man you want? If he can, keep him on a leash. Else, let him go.

So far it seems he cannot, but only 10 days have gone by. I still have an open door, and I am very focused on other projects now, and actually realizing I have never ever ever dealt with a similar situation so well. (I do have moments of extreme bitterness or melancholy, we had something really great together and it is hard for me to understand why that doesn’t motivate him to come through…) But overall, I’m doing good.

Neither on line 6 nor on line 1. I read hexagrams rather that lines. The emblem of hexagram 11 is a clump of grass, each blade holding to others (yang Wood). Hexagram 18 is a jue (wine pitcher) inverted, implying a loss of vitality (yin Water). Specifically, the loss of vitality in a ruling family. From this I concluded that things will not turn out as you wish if your expectations are traditional but could otherwise.

Thanks for this very strong depiction of hexagram 11 into 18!

11 is anything but 'peace', it's one of those badly named hexagrams. It is flow, where heaven and earth interact.....except here, in your reading they kind of totally miss one another in the 'flow' of passing. I have the image of 2 people on 2 escalators in a mall going different directions. They wave and try to speak but the current, the flow, is moving to fast for them to have any kind of exchange.

Yes, I always have a hard time with “Peace” and 11 is coming a lot regarding our process, and this is far from peaceful. But it is necessary. “Flow” is great.
I have been in some “opposite escalator” encounters and this is not one of them. We met with unprecedented synchrony, everything was enjoyable and smooth - when I began the movement. regarding imagery I feel taking a sweet puppy for a walk, one that gets excited about everything including his owners steps, is still the one that better fits. He had no autonomy or personal drive, but he definitely came along and looked my way.

I think there is another factor here about rushing, the need to slow down ? I don't know how this might apply but I wonder if you look to your past (because of the 18) have you developed a pattern of thinking relationships had to happen all at once ? For example did your parents keep moving you to different places so that you had to learn to develop sort of immediate bonds that could not go on beyond a certain point ? With 18 it is worth thinking about your parent's ways of relating, how they taught you, (deliberately or not) to have relationships.

The slowing down is definitely to consider. The parental scenario does not apply, we were a very stable and self-enclosed family. In my life friendships stick around, some lovers don’t, but others are still in my life today. It varies a lot.
I was observing my need to rush and is a defense mechanism to “not knowing”. When I think about giving it time I feel the fear of being stuck, waiting for some move of his. I spent too long longing and investing in man that turned out to be nothing, it was just a waste of time, so now I feel utterly unavailable for that. For some days now (since 11/18!) I stopped waiting and just decided he is not going to act, though by then only a week had gone by. I had an inner urgency “to know”, which made me decide he is going to be silent, when in fact I don’t know what time will bring.

But I moved on. And I am happy I was able to!

OR/AND

the cast may show that falling into this old pattern is something you are coming to discard. That is you are replaying it in order to fully know this isn't what you need. That making all the moves to someone doesn't bring you satisfaction and that you need full reciprocation.

Reciprocation takes time. You have to wait for the other to respond. If you are too eager then they never get the chance to reciprocate..or not. It seems to me you need to have the time and space to really hear and feel if the other reciprocates. If they do not then move on...it isn't what you need.

In moving on more quickly perhaps you can develop new patterns that provide strong reciprocal relationships. The other returning your interest is a condition of that relationship continuing. That hardly needs saying but I'm saying it as I wonder if somewhere along the line you learned it was 'normal' for one person to show all the interest and have a pretty solo/one sided relationship ?

I hope this is it! My thoughts and feelings about this man and this situation are SO different from previous similar situations. I used to anguish compulsively on WHY doesn’t he stay, WHAT’S WRONG with me, in a self-destructive loop of self-loading. This time I just see that his silence shows he does not fit what I am looking for in a partner, and of course it is NOT pleasant to realize that, it is also not unbearable. It is what it is.

I think this guy may be the final time you enact this old 18 pattern. In 28 one must move on alone....so I think being happy with being single is a good starting point for transcending this pattern. From there perhaps you can come to a whole different basis , a whole new idea of what a good relationship looks like.

I hope so! This is now what keeps me focused and centered!

OTOH you may find if you don't keep calling him he might miss you and call you ....In which case that old 18 pattern is also transcended.

I can’t bring myself to believe that could be the case… It feels like the circle has closed, he has brought me the lesson he had come to bring me.

As a practical task for this cast you might try riding escalators and trying to make eye contact with folks on the escalator going the other way....just to see how it feels and if it feels anything like that old 18 pattern of relating.

Ah-ha, nice still having trouble with that one image. Maybe I head to a park with no dog and no leash and just enjoy my walk until one spontaneously wants to tag along with me… better pack some dog biscuits in my pockets from now on…

Thank you both, that was VERY HELPFUL!
:bows:

 

[ginnie]

Just wondering if you've talked with him a number of times about his lack of initiative . . . and he just doesn't get it. I am thinking that his behavior is of the order of an inhibition and I agree with Pocassin that a lot of guys are taking the back seat these days, due to cultural repression. Is that the way to overcome an inhibition: Boycotting the guy? I don't think this behavior is something that is under his conscious control. Hey, all this time you seemed to prefer him this way and then suddenly, bam, the citadel collapses and the city walls fall into the moat. Usually you call him and then suddenly you are not calling him. Did you give him any warning that you were about to change the rules . . . and roles? I understand how irksome his passivity must be to you . . . but there must have been something appealing about it before, as you two have been a couple for awhile. I think the lesson to be learned is how to go about fixing a relationship in a way that works for both people.

 

[oponopono]

Thanks ginnie, I was completely overlooking this perspective you gave me. Actually, when I first read it yesterday my first impulse was to run to the phone feeling "poor guy, what am I doing?!!!" - but I'm glad I did not communicate. I stayed with that feeling through the day and it reminded me of older patterns in which I would accommodate and try to understand the other side to the point of forgetting about my own needs - I tend to loose myself in that - and end up in serious cases of neglect.
I see I am now over-reacting to that. Unfortunately, I seem to need it. Maybe to later on find a middle way? I need this enlightened-rage I am feeling, this voice in me that keeps telling: you are worth more energy on his part! I never had that before...
The irony can be that this is actually the guy that would deserve some accommodation and more flexibility on my side, that may very well be the case, but it became now a process of how much I can put myself first. I have been feeling very strong these days, and this is totally new territory of my sense of self, so I decided to stick with it, and go on silently. He is an adult man with a will: if he wants to meet me he has a thousand ways and pretexts. He chose to keep silent, and I am taking that as a barometer of his will, and ability to commit.

But I also can see your point, and pocossin's, and understand I am taking a very intolerant position. I am not doing it light-heartedly... just feels like the thing to do now.
I asked for a commentary to this somewhat extreme decision of mine and was very puzzled with the answer
31,3 > 45

Do you have an experience with this line? It feels like it is telling me that I am still following him even when I think I am not anymore. Despite not being able to read the line I see there is an indication this is the wrong attitude to take, it will bring me distress, so I am pondering on that.... I am just enjoying this newly found inner voice so much, this unheard of "of course I am worth it!" - that I might be spoiling a good contact...

pufff...

Just wondering if you've talked with him a number of times about his lack of initiative . . . and he just doesn't get it.

Did you give him any warning that you were about to change the rules . . . and roles? I understand how irksome his passivity must be to you . . . but there must have been something appealing about it before, as you two have been a couple for awhile. I think the lesson to be learned is how to go about fixing a relationship in a way that works for both people.

Ginnie, this is a fairly recent thing, we weren't a couple for long, we weren't even a couple. Not even a month ago I was posting full of doubts and difficulty in trusting him. What happened since then was that we kept meeting each other very often (as long as I showed up where I know he goes out at night) talking for hours on end, he invited me for dinner a couple of times, (pocossin, in the financial department he is much more autonomous than me!) we walked by the river, went dancing... it was all terribly romantic but fundamentally ambiguous. The one time I tried to bring the conversation into US he gave a very puzzling response, like he had missed the question. I asked again, he detoured again. I went home very sad, I still saw him once again, we went dancing, and after that I went into silence. In the last night we saw each other I gave him a present (it was his birthday), but one that was obviously too dedicated to be just friendly.
That was it. Just feels like the guy is not interested enough.

I am still inspired by the motivation of remaining centered in my life and see if he comes. Despite 31,3 I do NOT feel I am waiting around for his action, or attached to the idea of relinking. I totally accept that was it, and he won't search for me. Maybe I am BSing myself, that can be. But if you can tell me a bit more on 31,3 and my exceeding inflexibility, I am available for change!

thank you!
yoana

 

[Trojina]

But I also can see your point, and pocossin's, and understand I am taking a very intolerant position. I am not doing it light-heartedly... just feels like the thing to do now.
I asked for a commentary to this somewhat extreme decision of mine and was very puzzled with the answer
31,3 > 45

It isn't an extreme decision to wait for him to call you. I have never met a man who is too 'culturally repressed' to send a text or pick up a phone ! Everywhere I see men calling and texting and inviting girlfriends out so to be honest I'd disregard these ideas...I would also disregard the idea that you 'boycott' him ..by waiting for him to call you. He isn't stupid, he can ask you why you stopped calling, he could call you...so what is all this 'poor guy' stuff about. As you can see I don't agree with previous responders in any way at all.

I think you recognising a good relationship is a two way thing is crucial. How can anyone have a one way relationship ? You could tell him you would like it to be 2 way but I think you already did....you said somewhere you did I think....So if you have told him and spoken to him of it he is not likely to be confused about why you are waiting for him to call unless he is exceptionally dim. Even if he were confused he could pick up the phone or send an email asking you why you don't call.

You aren't solely responsible for the relationship as Ginnie seems to imply (sorry Ginnie I find your ideas quite peculiar here). Recognising that and giving him space to respond or not is, I think, a massive step forward for you to finding the kind of bonds you do want.

I think 31.3 shows someone cleaving too closely to someone....it paints a picture of running to the phone and not giving someone else the space to respond or not.

However that wasn't your question , your question was about letting him call you. maybe it advises you shouldn't listen to advice here to closely that doesn't seem likely though.

I think maybe it just reflects how much you want to call him ? That you are still thinking of him and so on....? To be fair Ginne may have a point about talking to him so he is clear that actually you would like him to take the initiative...so then he is in no doubt about your actions.

...but I thought you already did.

For me this wouldn't be a dilemma at all. I would lose interest in anyone who was not interested enough to send a text, make a call or send an email ...so maybe I don't really understand your issues here. I actually don't understand why you'd continue to call someone who never calls you...At some point that pattern would have to change or the relationship would die wouldn't it ? I mean in any relationship...family, friends....there has to be reciprocity. How could you go on for years always being the one to call him......??

 

[ginnie]

People a few years older than me, and I've known quite a few of them closely -- the Silent Generation -- expected that if someone were interested in them, they could intuit the message, if they were intelligent: that it didn't need to be spoken. Now, I'm not saying I agree with that. In fact, I have often gotten very angry with the lack of communication skills of people like this.

My girlfriend, for example, just took a week to email me back about something. In truth, I've given up expecting any quick communications from her, and that approach seems to work best for me at this point. Maybe I could say that people like this, who are challenged in the area of communications, at initiating communications, are afraid of something, otherwise they wouldn't be procrastinating or whatever it is they are doing. Maybe they do lack a sense of responsibility and are lacking in thoughtfulness. Nevertheless, I've known her since 1977, and we are good friends. I possess a great deal of patience, you see.

So, my point is that relationships come in all shapes and sizes and there is no perfect partner. People prioritize things differently, too, so what is important to me might not be given any weight by another . . . I find this irksome, but I've run into it again and again among the people I know.

31.3 can mean a kind of restlessness in which we are concerning ourselves with things that will end up by embarrassing us.

If I were you, I'd be thinking more about what you feel for him, and how can you communicate that effectively? Do you feel affection for him? Was he nice to be with? In other words, it is counterproductive to give thought to what is wrong with him. I understand now that you didn't know him very long. I thought that was very clever of you to go to where he'd be in the evening, if you wanted to meet him. I still think he sounds like he's inhibited, and not doing anything on purpose to annoy you. But if you've had it up to here with people who don't reciprocate properly, I can certainly understand that. Good luck to you!

 

[oponopono]

It isn't an extreme decision to wait for him to call you. I have never met a man who is too 'culturally repressed' to send a text or pick up a phone !

So, my point is that relationships come in all shapes and sizes and there is no perfect partner. People prioritize things differently, too, so what is important to me might not be given any weight by another . . .

If I were you, I'd be thinking more about what you feel for him, and how can you communicate that effectively? Do you feel affection for him? Was he nice to be with? In other words, it is counterproductive to give thought to what is wrong with him.

The ambiguity in this phase, for me, is actually perfectly manifested in you both disagreeing - and me feeling I totally agree with both of you!
I can see both sides, and I can feel both vectors pulling to opposites sides in me, and they both have their value, I just need to figure out what is more important for me and my personal growth right now. I don’t find this an easy task, as 31,3 as kicked in as extreme self-doubt. All that centeredness was gone over the weekend. I just spent more time alone and less busy with work and the empty space was filled by terrible angst.

But I am very glad I had those intense 2 weeks of feeling strong and autonomous, even though that strength is gone. I know I have it in me. I am feeling the pull from the side of me that agrees with ginnie. I just don’t ring him because I feel too emotional and confused and that would make matters worse.

So the plan is to regain some clarity, find a middle way, and go down there and have a conversation with him. Right now I don’t see the point - he didn’t say anything, why should I? It feels a bit like driving into a dead end street, hoping the wall suddenly opens up. It makes no sense, but emotionally, it’s needed. I don’t question that.

It was really great that you both vocalized this duality in me, as pocossin's call to awareness, and I learned a great deal from this post. Let's just hope this ends well...

 

[oponopono]

(ah-ha, just to share this brilliant dialogue between posts! hope nobody answers anything for a short while...)




:bows: