What now 'after' the toppling of S's regime? 12 to 8

[anita]

Hi all,

Just one week before the war when I'd asked the Yi what was to happen i'd drawn hexagram 1 and right it was -- Strong Action. Yesterday when I asked what now, I got 12 to 8 and the aptness of the answer gave me goosebumps! Order must be restored by a dynamic individual and then there is success. 8 once again speaks of an able leader. Who could that be? Anyone else has asked?
Those were history-making images of the bringing down of S's statue on BBC yesterday!

Best for your Quest

 

[louise]

Yeah ???? Do you believe the BBC ? The BBC tells us a little bit of what it wants us to hear.
"Strong Action" is open to interpretation - is strong action bombing Iraqis to bits ?

 

[lenardthefast]

Hi Louise,

Just a brief comment. Naturally the BBC probably has an 'agenda' but compared to the type of drival we are served up here in the US, it is like a breath of fresh spring air. I really don't feel like I have a well-rounded perspective on world news without it. Granted, anything can be found to be somewhat lacking in some respects, but I honestly feel as if I am getting a more in-depth perspective from the BBC.

Just my silly humble opinion, of course.

Namaste,
Leonard

 

[louise]

They sure do have an agenda. Fiction. Watch the BBC and you'd think we'd all mourned the Queen Mother !

 

[kiya]

I'm with Leonard, Louise. I sometimes have time to listen to BBC's The World on NPR in the afternoons, and it beats the US press all around. Watch any US media outlet and you'd think WE all supported Bush's War!

Kiya

 

[lenardthefast]

Wow Louise,

I had no idea that you possessed this political side. Now that I know, my hats off to you and I send a big "RIGHT ON" your way! I am dead set against war in all its forms, with the exception of self defense. If I may I will share a poem with you and the members that I ran across recently in the San Francisco Chronicle written by Lawrence Ferlinghetti.


And a vast paranoia sweeps across the land
And America turns the attack on its Twin Towers
Into the beginning of the Third World War
The war with the Third World

And the terrorists in Washington
Are drafting all the young men

And no one speaks

And they are rousting out
All the ones with turbans
And they are flushing out
All the strange immigrants

And they are shipping all the young men
To the killing fields again

And no one speaks

And when they come to round up
All the great writers and poets and painters
The National Endowment of the Arts of
Complacency
Will not speak

While all the young men
Will be killing all the young men
In the killing fields again

So now is the time for you to speak
All you lovers of liberty
All you lovers of the pursuit of happiness
All you lovers and sleepers
Deep in your private dreams

Now is the time for YOU to speak
O silent majority
Before they come for you
Lawrence Ferlinghetti

And of course the following by one of my personal heros:


"Strict observance of the written law is doubtless one of the highest
duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest." "To lose our
country by a scrupulous adherence to the written law would be to lose the
law itself." -- Thomas Jefferson

Namaste,
Leonard

 

[kiya]

Wow, Leonard, that's powerful. And chillingly true. I've wondered what Jefferson must be thinking if he's observing the debacle Bush Regime has wrought on this country and the entire world. I see less "scrupulous adherence to the written law" than I see twisting and perversion of our Constitution for some very dubious and hidden objectives.

(Didja hear that, Ashcroft?)

Kiya

 

[kiya]

Oops...

Guess it's not appropriate to vent my spleen on this forum. There are places for politics and this isn't one of them.

My apologies to all.

Kiya

 

[lenardthefast]

Hi Kiya,

Once in a while I just HAVE to! I'm all better now and I promise that I will be good, until the next time!

Since this is a multi-national forum I, too, believe that the people out there should know that not all Americans are in support of this travesty. Now I will shut up and resume the embryonic position. Dang, does my thumb go in my mouth or my bum? I'm forever forgetting the details.

Namaste,
Leonard

 

[kiya]

Me, too, Leonard. Like you, I think it's important that our multinational friends don't believe all Americans march in lockstep with...

Gotta stop this. I'm gonna be good, too. Shut my mouth, zip my lip, bite my tongue, and decide about the thumb later.

Kiya

 

[binz]

Louise,

thanks for being honest. It is refreshing to hear someone with their own honest views, rather than the views of their conditioning society. I guess that's one reason why I like this whole clarity community, we are here because of what we have discovered ourselves, not what we have been conditioned to believe.

And picking up on queen mum thing, the same applied to diana. Not everyone thought she was a living saint, and the country coming to a standstill was due to media pressure and guilt.

OK, sorry about all this political stuff. Venting over, my next post will be to do with Yi - honest!

Binz

 

[louise]

Hi Leonard, I'm not particularly politically aware i don't think, but even I noticed how the BBC really minimised and hushed up the protests that were happening everywhere in Britain after the war started. That kind of changed my view of the BBC. Of course its probably very much better than media coverage in the US, but still they seemed to want to give the impression most Britons were for this war. I think its really important we know not all Americans are for this war.

Right on Binz, around the time of Dianas death the media pressure was immense.

Right I'll shut up now, this not being a political forum - trouble is its hard to get away from it if we ever discuss the war, ie Anita used the term 'strong action' which implies right action which obviously has a political stance.

 

[gene]

Hi everyone

I myself am not anti war, but neither am I an avid fan of it. One thing I have been convinced of, as I generally don't listen to CNN and other broadcasts, I have my own news sources, this is NOT, and I repeat, NOT, what it appears to be. I am going to make a very provacative statement, and I will only make it, I will not bother to back it up or defend my position, but this was a sham war. Since I do not look at the normal newscasts, I cannot say this from first hand experience, but if anyone has access to the tapes showing the raising of the American flag, look at how it is raised, my understanding is that it was raised upside down. There are laws preventing the raising of an American flag upside down, except in one condition, when we are in deep distress. As Leonard put it in one of his other posts, "There is something fishy in Denmark."

Gene

 

[louise]

I'm intrigued Gene - didn't know this about the flag ?

 

[candid]

Oh yes. Let's restore Iraq to Sadam. The country and its people were much better off with the insane murderer/ dictator in place. Let's demonize Bush and Blair instead of the mass murderer, Sadam and his henchmen. Let's be ashamed of our military and earned economic and social independence. While we're at it, let's restore Germany to the Nazis and be kind to our enemies. Let's ban all means of self defense from private citizens and train our children to yield to a government grown out of control in size and authority. And lastly, let's dismiss 911 and imagine there's no future threat of terrorism in our own backyard.

Its not an ideal world we live in, now anymore than in ancient times. War is a consequence of extremes in society. There is no perfect government or leader, or war. War is ugly no matter how its dressed up in the media. But its better than some of the alternatives.

Ok, you can all throw tomatoes now.

 

[hilary]

<FONT SIZE="-2">Would anyone like to discuss Anita's reading?</FONT>

 

[hilary]

To avoid any misunderstanding - it's coincidence pure and simple that I popped up with that suggestion after Candid's post, rather than anyone else's. I'm not responding to one post more than another, nor expressing a political view (not out of restraint, just because I can't get a coherent one together), but only a view on the general direction of the discussion.

12 to 8 strikes me as very interesting, actually. 12 is tyranny and (at least by the time of the lines at the end) its overthrow. It seems to fit particularly well with a regime where criticising the president was punishable by having your tongue cut out. 8 is (according to Karcher) the meeting of lords and spirits that Yu called after the flood to start creating the new order. Hence the 'infrastructure' concerns of the Image, perhaps. It all fits all too well, not least 'not at rest, coming on all sides' and 'taking responsibility too late, pitfall' (to translate only very slightly freely).

With an oracle that doesn't mince words, and a subject like this, we're not going to manage to avoid politics. I'd appreciate it if we could more or less channel this through Yi interpretation, though.

 

[louise]

But we know from past experience if we all asked the same question as Anita we'd get totally differing answers ? Actually I think I'll go back to that thread on the war and reread peoples differing predictions. Should be interesting in hindsight.

 

[louise]

Hexagram 1 never appeared at all in the experiment "To war or not to war" did it ?

 

[cal val]

Dear Louise,

I am deeply saddened and shamed by the needless loss of so many lives as you are. I am now also saddened and shamed by this administration's decision to install a US military occupational government as well. Occupation did not equal liberation when Hitler did it, and it does not equal liberation when we do it.

Louise and Leonard, I very much relate to your frustration about trying to find objective news on the war in Iraq. I have to scour the media sources available, both domestic and international, and read through the hyperbole to glean the facts. Even this article from Timesonline, the website for The London Times, (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-605441,00.html) regarding Bush Sr's expression of his feelings on his son's war policy in his controversial speech at Tufts University has a political slant to the left, but you can still glean facts from it. I'm sorry, you'll have to copy and paste the above url into the address bar of a new window. The formatting language of this forum prevents creating a hyperlink for the url since it has commas in it. Washingtonpost.com, of course, has a different slant on Bush Sr's controversial speech. They maintain Bush Jr. learned from his father's speech. I don't see that he did considering that, as soon as he determined the UN Security Council was not going to support his new resolution, he gave his 48-hour war 'notice'.

Louise, though I do see many of the UK online media sources are "bought and paid for," I have to agree with Leonard. They do lean a little closer to fair reporting than ours here do. When you had the big (an estimated 400,000 participated) war protest back in September of 2002, it was nearly impossible to find news of it in our domestic sources. We did, however, get "front page" news of your protest against the fox-hunting ban (an estimated 250,000 participated).

If you'd like to see the political climate and the feelings on US military action from the perspective of an Iraqi inside Iraq...Baghdad for that matter, http://dear_raed.blogspot.com/, or it's mirror site generously provided by google.com and blogger.com, http://dearraed.blogspot.com/, is incredibly informative and 'eye-opening.' Unfortunately his postings ended about three or fours days into the war, but it will be interesting to see what he has to say when he again has internet access...IF he survived.

Sincerely,

Val

 

[cal val]

Dear Gene,

This war is not a sham so much because they held the American flag upside down or even because they were so arrogant and pompous and sure of an easy victory that they sent our troops into the desert as sitting ducks in <FONT COLOR="119911">green uniforms</FONT>. The US flag should not be flying over Iraq. The Iraqi flag alone should be. If this administration's stated intention to eliminate a tyrannical regime (that we installed in Iraq in the first place) is NOT a sham, then why did it neglect to include a line item in a recent proposed budget for the rebuilding of Afghanistan...as promised? Congress had to hustle and find $300 million to allocate to the rebuilding of Aghanistan...as promised...and revise the budget accordingly. Altruistic intentions indeed!

There's much much more, of course, to support your point that this war is a sham, but not enough space on Hilary's server to store it all.

The good news is that the Pentagon, after much pressure from members of Congress, cancelled the contracts for the postwar rebuilding of the oil fields in Iraq it had awarded (before the war even started) to Halliburton, of which Dick Cheney was CEO for the five years prior to becoming our Vice President. Incidentally, during the five-year period Halliburton was led by Mr. Cheney, it did record business with Iraq (at least $73 million...that we know of) despite the US economics sanctions...through its French subsdiaries and the Oil for Food UN Security Council program established with resolutions starting with #661. The latest news is, however, that Halliburton got them anyway, and the potential worth is $7 billion). Why am I not surprised?

Sincerely,

Val

 

[cal val]

Dear Candid,

But it was OUR government that GAVE Iraq Hussein in the first place...during JFK's administration, the CIA staged one of its famous coups to overthrow the then tyrant, Abdul Karim Kassem. We simply replaced one tyrant with another.

And OUR government and many of the men in the current administration including Casper Weinberger and Donald Rumsfeld not only sanctioned but aided in the killing of Iranians AND Kurds with biochemical weapons. We, in fact, not only helped Iraq procure the materials necessary (as Casper Weinberger alluded to in his testimony in a 1987 Senate hearing on the US support of Iraq in that war) but provided them (as stated in the Iraqi weapons declaration faxed to the UN offices in New York just prior to the start of the war). The Center for Disease Control and the American Type Culture Collection here in Virginia as well as the Pasteur Institute in France all sent samples of many bacteria strains. It's all on record.

What we have here, Candid, is not a war for the liberation of an oppressed people but a war for the liberation of oppressed...and RICH oil fields and reserves. This war was STRICTLY about the "Politics of Oil." As Gene said, this war IS a hypocritcal sham. Let's just hope this administration doesn't forget, as it did with Afghanistan, to include monies for humanitarian aid along with all the billions it's allocating for the rebuilding of the oil fields.

Sincerely,

Val

 

[cal val]

Hilary...

Ooops. Sorry, you posted your request to limit this discussion to the Yi while I was composing my three-part, three-pronged pitchfork of a post, and I hadn't read it.

I'll be a good little girl now...and respond to your post. If you read the dear raed site I posted for Louise and Leonard, you'll understand when I say I'm confused by your observation, "It seems to fit particularly well with a regime where criticising the president was punishable by having your tongue cut out."

Salam Pax posted his blogs in which he openly criticized Sadam Hussein and the Ba'ath Party for many many months, and there's no mention in them of having had his tongue cut out. Nor does it appear he had has criticism-typing fingers cut off nor even his internet access cut off. Anyone who knows anything about the vulnerability of the internet knows that it would have been no difficult task at all to hunt down, find and cut out the tongue of the real person behind the pseudonym, Salam Pax.

I'd love to know your source for this piece of information.

Cheerio the noo,

Val

 

[gene]

Interesting that #8 was the relating hexagram. Trying to pull this country back together now. If the newspapers here have any truth to them, the fighting now is going on between the Iraqis themselves.

Just a couple quick notes beyond that. Then I will leave it totally to the discussion of the Yi. Val, I recognize your points, and they have a lot of validity. However, this goes far beyond oil and has its roots in antiquity. Candid has a good point too though. I will not go into historical facts about false claims presented to the populace for war as I would if I could relate it to the Yi, but maybe there is another format where I can discuss the beginnings of world war II, which is not what people think it is.

Gene

 

[hilary]

Gene, why don't you put together a mailing on all this, and people could send you their emails to 'subscribe' to it? Like I say, politics are unavoidable here, but let's filter them through Yi in time-honoured fashion!

I think that #12 is there as a reminder to us absurdly lucky people that life under Saddam was not like ours. I don't believe that the US/UK motives were altruistic in the slightest, but Anita wasn't asking about motives, but about results. If we are to believe the moving lines, then those look at the very least like an improvement on what went before. Hexagram 8 is open-ended, though: it naturally tends towards order and union, but there is that 'pitfall' available in the judgement.

Taking my own advice, and sending sources to Val by private email!

 

[suzy]

Would just like to say (without slipping into political talk) -- for those of us who routinely scour the international media to find out what's really going on, here's an invaluable link:

http://www.arabnews.com/

It's an English-language online newspaper put out by the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Of course they have an agenda too, but I've been thrilled to actually have access to an Arab point of view. It's exceedingly interesting to follow their coverage alongside that of the Beeb, the Guardian, the Washington Post, and of course the godawful American cable news networks.

 

[anita]

Hilary is right. I wasn't asking for motives. Now I'm just waiting for that dynamic leader the Yi mentions is required to set the world in order. I wonder who it could be. To me it feels like such a one will appear.

I myself am torn over the Iraq issue. On one hand I think the world did need to get rid of Sadam and anyway, any sort of war does have its consequences.

On the other hand it sickens me to think that the motives were material. But many wars are, aren't they? I think of some close to home -- the war waged against the great Vijayanagar Empire in the South I'm told for Moslem control of the trade routes. However, let me make it clear that I'm so unpolitical that I often don't even know the names of political leaders in India! I don't think taking an interest in a huge crisis like the Iraq War requires an interest in politics anyway. It is something that will affect all the world in a positive or a negative way.

Louise, I drew Hexagram 1 a week before the war began. I'm not sure whether the Yi was making a moral judgement in this case. It may have just predicted that strong action would be taken. On the other hand, I suppose if you did ask the Yi whether Sadam should be overthrown, it will say yes.

Best for Your Quest

Anita