"When" Question

[firehorse]

I asked "when" I could expect something...not really a good question, I know. The response was 18.2<52. Am I being told to fix what's wrong first?

 

[hollis]

I feel you are being told that it is not easy to quantify a time, there are factors that require sensitivity ; it is not a hard and fixed situation.

"The mother's Gu": for me, these can be factors that are embedded, woven, integrated into a problem; you can't just 'pull them out'.

What do you think, does this make any sense?

 

[willowfox]

I asked "when" I could expect something...not really a good question, I know. The response was 18.2<52. Am I being told to fix what's wrong first?

Don't worry all questions are good.

I hope its not important because it could indicate the first week of October which is probably why Hex 52 is telling you to stay still.

 

[firehorse]

Hi Willowfox,

It is important, but I suppose it will be even more worth the wait. Out of curiosity, where did you derive the first week of October?

 

[firehorse]

Hi Hollis,

Yes, your response makes sense, too...kind of. That response could apply to so many different facets of my personality...anyone's really, I'm not quite sure how to break it down more.

 

[tigerintheboat]

When Hell Freezes Over

I asked "when" I could expect something...not really a good question, I know. The response was 18.2<52. Am I being told to fix what's wrong first?

One possible approach to solving the "when" question is to put the names of the two hexagrams together in a phrase.

For example, "when unstirring removes corruption"
"When corruption resolves into meditiation."

Try different translations of the two hexagrams to see what fits. If we had the background here, we might be able to help more by finding the right phrase.

Meanwhile, Line 2 might provide a hint: From the Wikiwing

18 zhi Hexagram 52, Corruption Keeping Still – when it needs to be more responsive. 18 is not a time just to keep still and be with how things are; it may need to do this, but not as an ongoing strategy.

So maybe "When Corruption is no longer Keeping Still."

Tiger

 

[deedeebird]

I feel you are being told that it is not easy to quantify a time, there are factors that require sensitivity ; it is not a hard and fixed situation.

"The mother's Gu": for me, these can be factors that are embedded, woven, integrated into a problem; you can't just 'pull them out'.

What do you think, does this make any sense?

Um, it does if you were smoking crack when you wrote it and we were smoking crack when we read it?

"One possible approach to solving the "when" question is to put the names of the two hexagrams together in a phrase."

I've used this technique a little bit, but does this mean you don't abide by a calendar approach? I mean if we could get an actual ballpark date, why would we settle for something so broad as "When corruption is no longer keeping still?" I'm only wondering what your opinion is because there seem a few different ones on this forum, and I haven't yet made up my mind.

Thanks.

 

[hilary]

(*sends pm to Willowfox*)

As for Gu... try looking at the name of the hexagram, and maybe reading about it.

I mean if we could get an actual ballpark date, why would we settle for something so broad as "When corruption is no longer keeping still?"

Reasonable question! Maybe because taking the reading as a description of a personal quality of time makes it about you again: changes you can make, changes you're sensitive to, your own awareness of the situation. It gives something back to you that is taken away if all you can do is stare at a calendar and wait.

 

[Trojina]

One possible approach to solving the "when" question is to put the names of the two hexagrams together in a phrase.

For example, "when unstirring removes corruption"
"When corruption resolves into meditiation."

Try different translations of the two hexagrams to see what fits. If we had the background here, we might be able to help more by finding the right phrase.

Meanwhile, Line 2 might provide a hint: From the Wikiwing

18 zhi Hexagram 52, Corruption Keeping Still – when it needs to be more responsive. 18 is not a time just to keep still and be with how things are; it may need to do this, but not as an ongoing strategy.

So maybe "When Corruption is no longer Keeping Still."

Tiger

i never thought of doing this for a 'when'. Good idea !

 

[Trojina]

I feel you are being told that it is not easy to quantify a time, there are factors that require sensitivity ; it is not a hard and fixed situation.

"The mother's Gu": for me, these can be factors that are embedded, woven, integrated into a problem; you can't just 'pull them out'.

What do you think, does this make any sense?

makes alot of sense to me

 

[meng]

Darn, all out of crack.

I asked "when" I could expect something...not really a good question, I know. The response was 18.2<52. Am I being told to fix what's wrong first?

Yi's advice is actually along the lines of Hilary's comment, making it about something you actually have some control of. Lookit line 2:

Stem-mother's decay. No determination possible.

This has to do with taking care of yourself, and not relying on someone else to make you feel worthy. You can't determine your worth or happiness based solely upon what others do.

52 is a still mountain, which I think speaks for itself.

I recommend a half hour each morning of dancing naked in the wind, and lots of rest. No, just kidding about the rest.

 

[deedeebird]

Reasonable question! Maybe because taking the reading as a description of a personal quality of time makes it about you again: changes you can make, changes you're sensitive to, your own awareness of the situation. It gives something back to you that is taken away if all you can do is stare at a calendar and wait.

Well, but then instead of waiting for time to lapse, you end up waiting "for corruption to stop being still"--whatever that means. I really think this is an issue of power. You are saying that if someone is told a timeframe, they will automatically stop "working" on themselves and the situation, kick back and wait for the date to arrive? That is about giving up your own power to someone who has provided you with an answer. We should never give up our power, that is understood, but what I don't understand is why no one is willing to address the real question: Can you tell time with the Yi?

If you ask me, the only way to answer this is by asking a 'when' question, obtaining a solid, calendar-based answer, and waiting to see if the answer is accurate. "Waiting" does not mean sitting idly by. It means getting on with life, following the teachings of Hex 15, but in following the teachings of Hex 15, remaining open to the possibility that the Yi may indeed be able to give answers in numbers.

Maybe I have missed something, as I'm fairly new to this forum. But it seems as if there is a certain amount of passive agressiveness towards certain topics...or perhaps people?
Everyone seems quite excited by this suggestion that by combining hexagram phrases, you can get an obtuse answer to a 'when' question, and yet none of you who have studied the IC are at all excited when someone answers with a direct date? I don't get that. Don't you at least want to know if that's possible or how they did it? Is this an old topic that has already run its course b/c searching the threads, I was unable to find it addressed.

 

[deedeebird]

makes alot of sense to me

How frightening. At least I know who not to ask.

 

[meng]

Well, but then instead of waiting for time to lapse, you end up waiting "for corruption to stop being still"--whatever that means. I really think this is an issue of power. You are saying that if someone is told a timeframe, they will automatically stop "working" on themselves and the situation, kick back and wait for the date to arrive? That is about giving up your own power to someone who has provided you with an answer. We should never give up our power, that is understood, but what I don't understand is why no one is willing to address the real question: Can you tell time with the Yi?

If you ask me, the only way to answer this is by asking a 'when' question, obtaining a solid, calendar-based answer, and waiting to see if the answer is accurate. "Waiting" does not mean sitting idly by. It means getting on with life, following the teachings of Hex 15, but in following the teachings of Hex 15, remaining open to the possibility that the Yi may indeed be able to give answers in numbers.

Maybe I have missed something, as I'm fairly new to this forum. But it seems as if there is a certain amount of passive agressiveness towards certain topics...or perhaps people?
Everyone seems quite excited by this suggestion that by combining hexagram phrases, you can get an obtuse answer to a 'when' question, and yet none of you who have studied the IC are at all excited when someone answers with a direct date? I don't get that. Don't you at least want to know if that's possible or how they did it? Is this an old topic that has already run its course b/c searching the threads, I was unable to find it addressed.

What was obtuse was the original question.

Originally Posted by firehorse View Post
I asked "when" I could expect something...not really a good question, I know. The response was 18.2<52. Am I being told to fix what's wrong first?

There are some who use formulas for date predictions.

 

[willowfox]

Anyone remember this old saying; "None so blind as those who will not see".

I see so many on this forum who just close their eyes to anything that they fail to comprehend, some of these people remind me strongly of the "flat earth" believers.

In astrology we can fine tune our predictions accurately to a day, even to within a few hours using Horary astrology. Astrology is about time and is older than the I Ching, so why can't you people see that the IC can also predict time. But then having said that who really cares what you believe or don't believe as some of you have your heads in the sand and are not willing to even "experiment".

Can you honestly believe that adding the meaning of two hexs together, say Hex 1 +2, is going to give you the 4th of July? I make no apologies for saying that this idea makes absolutely no sense in reality and never will.

This is not an attack, this is a call for some of you to emerge from your shells and have a good look at what you are saying and endorsing. But I personally don't care what you think and never have, I am just trying to educate.

By the way, it has been proven that the Earth is not only a sphere but circles the Sun as well.

 

[hilary]

Well, but then instead of waiting for time to lapse, you end up waiting "for corruption to stop being still"--whatever that means.

Isn't that rather the point of the whole exercise, to try to find in yourself the truth of what the reading means?

I really think this is an issue of power. You are saying that if someone is told a timeframe, they will automatically stop "working" on themselves and the situation, kick back and wait for the date to arrive? That is about giving up your own power to someone who has provided you with an answer. We should never give up our power, that is understood

Yes, that's part of what I'm thinking. Also that it's about engagement - as Meng says, especially since this is hexagram 18, of all hexagrams. When you have a reading about a situation, this helps you to be more clearly and fully aware of its undercurrents.

, but what I don't understand is why no one is willing to address the real question: Can you tell time with the Yi?

If you ask me, the only way to answer this is by asking a 'when' question, obtaining a solid, calendar-based answer, and waiting to see if the answer is accurate. "Waiting" does not mean sitting idly by. It means getting on with life, following the teachings of Hex 15, but in following the teachings of Hex 15, remaining open to the possibility that the Yi may indeed be able to give answers in numbers.

Maybe I have missed something, as I'm fairly new to this forum. But it seems as if there is a certain amount of passive agressiveness towards certain topics...or perhaps people?
Everyone seems quite excited by this suggestion that by combining hexagram phrases, you can get an obtuse answer to a 'when' question, and yet none of you who have studied the IC are at all excited when someone answers with a direct date? I don't get that. Don't you at least want to know if that's possible or how they did it? Is this an old topic that has already run its course b/c searching the threads, I was unable to find it addressed.

It's been addressed somewhat - at least, if you hunt around long enough you will find posts by Jesed sharing his method for predicting times. Yes, there is definite curiosity about whether this is possible or how it can be done -

Out of curiosity, where did you derive the first week of October?

See - the question has been asked, it's not being ignored or neglected. We're just also looking at other ways to see the reading.

 

[Sparhawk]

It's been addressed somewhat - at least, if you hunt around long enough you will find posts by Jesed sharing his method for predicting times. Yes, there is definite curiosity about whether this is possible or how it can be done -

BTW, I haven't forgotten about this. I'm slowly working through a translation of the source text Jesed uses for time prediction (also creating some graphics, etc.). Good stuff from Ricardo Andree. Whatever qualms I have about his dogmatic views, and the mix of evangelical Christianity with the Yijing, are obscured by some of the technical material in his treatise. Ricardo Andree is on record of being very accurate with the dating method he uses (as well as his students).

 

[bamboo]

BTW, I haven't forgotten about this. I'm slowly working through a translation of the source text Jesed uses for time prediction (also creating some graphics, etc.). Good stuff from Ricardo Andree. Whatever qualms I have about his dogmatic views, and the mix of evangelical Christianity with the Yijing, are obscured by some of the technical material in his treatise. Ricardo Andree is on record of being very accurate with the dating method he uses (as well as his students).

when you finish translating the source text, can you share it with us? Please?

deedeebird, with all due respect, you seem to lack a little imagination......if a corrupting influence is deeply embedded in the object of my inquiry, it is entirely possible that the question of "when" a desired outcome is going to happen, depends entirely on whether I am willing to get that corruption upended, force it from it's place, pick up the rock, explore the ugly rot underneath. esp if it has been there for generations, this is not a pleasant task. no time frame can be assigned

....might certainly require lots of naked dancing at dawn, imploring the gods for help.

could take a lifetime.

"when corruption is no longer keeping still" could mean "when you bring 'the dead' back to life" ie "when you are willing to reexamine generations of rot and corruption"

 

[willowfox]

The I Ching, mystic oracle from the East, raises more questions than it can possibly answer, perhaps it should be renamed. Ask a simple question but get a lifetime of different and vague answers.

 

[Sparhawk]

when you finish translating the source text, can you share it with us? Please?

Certainly! That's the only intention behind my translation from the Spanish.

It should be noted though that there are a number of methods for predicting dates if students had the patience to look for them. The one I'm translating is an interpretation by Ricardo Andree that has a good track record. The problem is that is only available in Spanish, and in limited supply at that as it is privately printed.

 

[deedeebird]

Isn't that rather the point of the whole exercise, to try to find in yourself the truth of what the reading means?

Not when the question is WHEN.

There is a myriad of questions one can ask if one wants to explore a situation. "When" is very specific and again, I really think that the discomfort imposed by the mere idea that the Yi could answer in a solid, reliable and simple way is so great that the very possibility is being cast aside.

Mind you, I am by no means saying it can be done. No, I couldn't possibly come to that conclusion without giving it more of a chance.

 

[hollis]

I have no problem with 'when' questions. Or calendar methods.

 

[deedeebird]

deedeebird, with all due respect, you seem to lack a little imagination......if a corrupting influence is deeply embedded in the object of my inquiry, it is entirely possible that the question of "when" a desired outcome is going to happen, depends entirely on whether I am willing to get that corruption upended, force it from it's place, pick up the rock, explore the ugly rot underneath. esp if it has been there for generations, this is not a pleasant task. no time frame can be assigned

Frankly, I don't want to use my "imagination" when I ask a "when" question. You unwittingly create the idea that all answers are correct. If only one can use one's imagination to understand the answer, one will have an answer...That's true, sure, but the answer will only be as helpful as you imagine it to be, and don't forget that one of the key definitions of 'imagination' is "a creation of the mind, especially one based on a fanciful or empty assumption." I might as well answer all posts with completely made up bunk. Who could say I was wrong? Only those who failed to use their imaginations.

 

[deedeebird]

I have no problem with 'when' questions. Or calendar methods.

Then why didn't you answer with one?

Why did you instead answer with abstract Zen nonsense?

 

[Trojina]

The I Ching, mystic oracle from the East, raises more questions than it can possibly answer, perhaps it should be renamed. Ask a simple question but get a lifetime of different and vague answers.

Exactly. Thats what the vision for the I Ching Communitys highest potential is according to Hilarys answer about it, 4.5, Not Knowing..see here http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=8285.

 

[hollis]

Because I don't know any. Calendar methods. I'm not there yet. And. I didn't answer with zen nonsense, line 2 in hex 18 specially talks about it being difficult to make a determination.

I drew on my own exp with this line. Which is why I asked firehorse for feedback, to learn more, not to open myself to ridicule.

 

[bamboo]

deedeebird, with all due respect, you seem to lack a little imagination......if a corrupting influence is deeply embedded in the object of my inquiry, it is entirely possible that the question of "when" a desired outcome is going to happen, depends entirely on whether I am willing to get that corruption upended, force it from it's place, pick up the rock, explore the ugly rot underneath. esp if it has been there for generations, this is not a pleasant task. no time frame can be assigned

Frankly, I don't want to use my "imagination" when I ask a "when" question. You unwittingly create the idea that all answers are correct. If only one can use one's imagination to understand the answer, one will have an answer...That's true, sure, but the answer will only be as helpful as you imagine it to be, and don't forget that one of the key definitions of 'imagination' is "a creation of the mind, especially one based on a fanciful or empty assumption." I might as well answer all posts with completely made up bunk. Who could say I was wrong? Only those who failed to use their imaginations.

if you approach using the yijing with a no-nonsense, give-me-the-exact-time answer I need, you are gonna be missing a great deal of its communication and I suspect you will not last long as a student of I Ching.
how th heck can anyone be sure WHEN some thing will happen? anything can happen in the interim. "there s many a slip twixt the cup and the lips."
and Hollis was not saying zen nonsense.......THATS what I was referring to when I said you had no imagination! you dont seems to have the knack, nor the imagination, for seeing beyond your immediate demands for a black and white answer. In case, you havent heard, the I Ching is not a yes/no tool. it doesnt answer "who" and although it may point to time frames possible, why in the world would saying that a response means ' no time frame is possible" indicate to you than all answers are correct? doesnt make sense.

 

[Trojina]

Because I don't know any. Calendar methods. I'm not there yet. And. I didn't answer with zen nonsense, line 2 in hex 18 specially talks about it being difficult to make a determination.

I drew on my own exp with this line. Which is why I asked firehorse for feedback, to learn more, not to open myself to ridicule.

I'm glad you did answer. It was a good answer I learned from. I'm sorry that you are being given a hard time for answering.

 

[deedeebird]

if you approach using the yijing with a no-nonsense, give-me-the-exact-time answer I need, you are gonna be missing a great deal of its communication and I suspect you will not last long as a student of I Ching.
how th heck can anyone be sure WHEN some thing will happen? anything can happen in the interim. "there s many a slip twixt the cup and the lips."
and Hollis was not saying zen nonsense.......THATS what I was referring to when I said you had no imagination! you dont seems to have the knack, nor the imagination, for seeing beyond your immediate demands for a black and white answer. In case, you havent heard, the I Ching is not a yes/no tool. it doesnt answer "who" and although it may point to time frames possible, why in the world would saying that a response means ' no time frame is possible" indicate to you than all answers are correct? doesnt make sense.

Neither does what you just wrote, but I'll use my imagination to piece it together.

Please understand that I am distinguishing between "when" questions and all other questions. "When" questions do seem pretty black and white to me, and if you are saying you feel otherwise, then great, just say it. You don't believe the Yi can tell time, good, at least you have stated your opinion which is more than most people are willing to do...which is my point.

 

[bamboo]

Neither does what you just wrote, but I'll use my imagination to piece it together.

Please understand that I am distinguishing between "when" questions and all other questions. "When" questions do seem pretty black and white to me, and if you are saying you feel otherwise, then great, just say it. You don't believe the Yi can tell time, good, at least you have stated your opinion which is more than most people are willing to do...which is my point.

I have no problem with calendar methods, either, just dont believe they can ever be white and black. Sorry about your lack of understanding, but I cant help you there. you said that I was intimating that "all answers are possible" and that , based on what I had said, made NO SENSE hard to talk to you:bows: