When the answers don't seem to match reality AT ALL

[esolo]

I'm having a difficult time with this.

I recently asked about a situation and got really good answers. However, the situation was a complete disaster. I mean...COMPLETE.

For example, I asked about moving to this new city and living with a friend there. I got 42.5. I thought...wow..this is terrific.

What happened in reality?

Well, I'm no longer even talking to this person because he has behaved so badly toward me.

Why did I received a very positive answer when the situation turned out so awful? I believe that the Yi answers the question we ask.

Is the answer saying that IF I moved in it would go very well....with no guarantee that this would ever happen? Kind of a shame what happened in that case.

I continue to ask questions about my friendship with this person and the answers seem way too positive given what happened. For example,

How is my relationship with him right now? Answer: 46 line 2

Huh? We aren't even speaking to one another.

What's going on here? Am I misinterpreting the lines...and they're really not that positive...or is the situation better than I think?

What can I expect from him? 53 line 3. I can expect him to act with impetuousness?

I would really appreciate some insight into this because I find it disturbing.

 

[sooo]

I believe we often tend to omit the conditions expressed in our readings and instead assume that the hexagram name guarantees the result. 42 describes the condition which creates increase, which is what you were probably hoping for. IF he's sees good, he emulates the good. IF he sees wrong, he avoids the wrong. Those are the conditions which create increase. Another good and typical example is 25. We receive 25 and think, what a good boy am I! That's not what it says, though a condition of increase or innocence MAY already be in progress, but then the opposite may be true. What it says is, an incorrect attitude brings disaster through shortsightedness - not seeing the entire picture.

The same applies to change lines. For instance, 46.2 depends upon inspiring confidence. Only then is ascending a result. This changes to 15, which is a condition of giving and receiving with authenticity: something some people just can't manage to do nor even understand. It's not just being nice to one another, it's the condition which permits true candor to be equally expressed without hostility. If these conditions are met, ascending is the natural result, which brings about 42.

I don't know what it is about necessary conditions that so many people need to ignore or pretend doesn't exist. It's simple cause and effect, and the Yi offers no magic bullet to change our reality nor to predict it unconditionally. Change is always subject to meeting the conditions for it.

 

[esolo]

I'm sorry. I don't follow what you're saying.

Here's what I mean. I asked a straightforward question:

What is the truth about my relationship with T?

Answer: 53.6

See?

I find this answer completely puzzling given what happened between us. I don't understand it at all. I can't even begin to interpret it.

Most of the time I do not have this problem with the Y's responses. I find myself going,...oh yeah, of course. With this situation though it's giving me downright bizarre answers. I actually find it disturbing.

 

[esolo]

I'm sorry. I don't follow what you're saying.

Here's what I mean. I asked a straightforward question:

What is the truth about my relationship with T?

Answer: 53.6

See?

I find this answer completely puzzling given what happened between us. I don't understand it at all. I can't even begin to interpret it.

Most of the time I do not have this problem with the Y's responses. I find myself going,...oh yeah, of course. With this situation though it's giving me downright bizarre answers. I actually find it disturbing.

 

[esolo]

Well...now that I've looked into 53.6 I think it's saying that I have moved on from the friendship.

 

[sooo]

"Since all things come into being from the existence of something else, with the disappearance of that something else they cease to be." Gautama Buddha

 

[bradford]

Why did I received a very positive answer when the situation turned out so awful? I believe that the Yi answers the question we ask.

Your error was in thinking that the Yi gives you positive and negative answers with positive and negative texts. There are at least two sides to every response.

 

[NemeanMagik]

I have looked at one or two translations of 53.6 to see if I can be of any help. I have not found it easy either to make sense of this reading. The only sense that makes sense - to me, is something along the same lines esolo as you yourself have mentioned: that it is related to being freed from the relationship, and therefore moving out of confusion because of that. It may also be that you have learnt something from this relationship of importance, and this could relate to the 'feathers', like accolades?
I am sure it is no consolation to be informed you are now a hermit. But 'hermit' is mentioned in a couple of translations I have read.
When what appear to be 'way out' readings occur and you are already troubled by a situation, sometimes I think it is best just to leave casting for a bit, and return to it at a later point. From what you say you have established sufficient confidence to do that.

 

[Liselle]

Well...now that I've looked into 53.6 I think it's saying that I have moved on from the friendship.

I think you're right, and 53.6 could also be saying that the friendship has still left behind something of value, even if it is over. Could that be true at all?

42.5...I do see what you mean. It certainly does not seem to contain any warnings about the relationship, or about you relocating. I guess it's a good thing you and your friend found yourselves at odds BEFORE you moved, rather than afterwards

The line does talk about benevolence...do you think forgiveness could come into play here, somehow?

This reading might be a good example of something I've wondered about before, though. It's often said that Yi doesn't say yes or no to our questions, but rather offers insight.

Which is wonderful - when I look at a reading, and see how it's explaining a situation in some depth to me, telling me something that I would never have thought to ask, and I think, "Ohhh. Now I see what's happening here," it's tremendous .

But insight really doesn't help if there's no chance of understanding it, right? You asked about moving, and got 42.5. Again, there are no actual warnings in that reading - there is nothing in it, as far as I can tell, that says it probably wouldn't be a good idea to move, or to live with this person, or that the actual moving-in would become a moot point. Here we are in hindsight, and we still don't know what it's saying.

The most cautious, suspicious interpretation of 42.5 I can think of might be that moving in with this person would require some generosity of spirit from you (the benevolence part again). But I'd probably think of that more as advice to let small domestic irritations roll off my back, or something like that, rather than that the relationship would fall apart completely.

In other words, if Yi is going to answer in the form of "Yes, but..." or "No, and..." we have to be able to somehow tease out the "yes" or the "no" from it, I would hope. The "but" or the "and" part - in isolation, without a way to tie it to the actual question - could really mean anything at all.

 

[Liselle]

Should probably add that sometimes a particular reading is part of a bigger story.

In other words, if I'm asking a series of questions about a situation that's generally negative, and I get one positive answer, it might simply mean that even in a bad situation there's some positive aspect.

I don't know if anything like that could apply here, though.

I mean, I'm one who can get quite irritated with the I Ching in situations like yours seems to be . But it has happened that eventually I see what the reading was trying to tell me all along. Which is both a relief, and pretty embarrassing, lol.

 

[Trojina]

For example, I asked about moving to this new city and living with a friend there. I got 42.5. I thought...wow..this is terrific.

What happened in reality?

Well, I'm no longer even talking to this person because he has behaved so badly toward me.

What did the friend say about the idea though. I mean what the friend thinks and wants over rides what message you think Yi is saying about what the friend wants. And what did you think ? I mean regardless of the reading what did you think ? Did you have misgivings ? An answer from Yi doesn't totally over ride what the other person says they think or want or your own thoughts. I mean Yi's answer has to be understood in the context of those realities.

Anyway presuming the friend was enthusiastic and so were you I'm sorry this didn't work out

 

[Trojina]

PS I started a thread in CC called "The Wrong Readings Bin" for people to put all such readings that seemed wrong or made no sense at all. As I recall in the process of writing and explaining the 'wrong readings' I'd received I actually 'got' them, understood them, after all and so they ceased to be 'wrong'. Some readings only make sense in hindsight. I can't count the number of times though I have written about a reading, saying it makes no sense, and then answered myself as the understanding comes through while I'm writing it out. So keep writing...

 

[Liselle]

One tiny part of the text of 42.5 says "No question." In answer to a query about whether to do something (like move in with someone), it would reasonably seem to be saying, "There is 'no question' that this is the right thing to do." And the words "good fortune" follow.

But after reading a bunch of commentaries on this line, a couple of them hint that "no question" could mean "do not ask questions about this." Do not do readings about it? Or, maybe, do not ask your friend a lot of questions?

For example, this website collects and lists quite a few texts for each line. One of them is Blofeld, which says:

"Be confident (or sincere) and kind, but refrain from asking questions and you will enjoy sublime good fortune. Faithfulness (or sincerity) and confidence are virtues proper to us." ​

Another is Liu:

"If you are sincere and benevolent in your heart, without consulting, there will be great good fortune. People will trust your benevolent character."​

On his own website, Bradford's commentary says:

"One's hunger for reassurance might only complicate things. If you want to know whether or not you tread the proper path, try asking yourself when your mind isn't listening in. Especially when your luck has turned to good."​

Does any of that ring any kind of bell with you? Did you do a lot of readings on this subject before this one? Or did you ask your friend a lot of questions?

I mean, I'm mentioning this just because some commentaries hint at it. I do think it's a bit on the flimsy side. Most commentaries don't explicitly interpret "no question" in that way (which, of course, could simply mean that most of them are wrong, and only a few astute souls got it right. Especially in light of your actual experience here - maybe yours is a really illustrative example of 42.5).

You didn't mention what caused your relationship with your friend to go sour - and you certainly don't have to tell us on a public website - but if you know why you're not speaking to each other, maybe something in this will ring a bell?

Another thing that's interesting is that the relating hexagram is 27. 27 could mean speaking - words that come from one's mouth (it can mean what goes into your mouth, like nourishment, or what comes out, like words.) And you and your friend are not speaking anymore...

In any event, I have made a huge note to myself that 42.5 is not necessarily a good thing. It would help to know what it's actually saying though .

 

[esolo]

You didn't mention what caused your relationship with your friend to go sour - and you certainly don't have to tell us on a public website - but if you know why you're not speaking to each other, maybe something in this will ring a bell?

Well....we have developed an emotional attachment to each other. It was the first time I had seen him in several years and we ended up kissing quite passionately (We had never been intimate before). Nothing else happened. However, there was definitely something quite intense there. I feel that I would fall deeply in love with him if it continued. So, it was no longer simply a matter of helping me move to this new city.

The next morning he had trouble talking to me and I rushed out and back to my hotel. I was shaken by the experience. I wasn't expecting to feel that deeply about him.

The next day he sent me a message asking if I wanted to have dinner with him. I accepted and he said that he would contact me in an hour or so to let me know what time. He never got back with me. I asked the Yi why not and it gave me an intelligible answer: 23.3....that line about how the pole is braced or something like that. I think he found the idea of interacting with me very stressful and couldn't go through with it. He later apologized saying that he fell asleep. I don't think this is what happened. I think it was simply too overwhelming for him.

So, in a nutshell...this went from a friends thing into a romantic thing. I got upset about being stood up...he got upset about the fact that the intimacy even happened saying that he cannot get into a relationship right now because of some things he has going on. I don't know if there really is something...or he's just a bit freaked out. At any rate...we are avoiding each other now. The whole thing seems to have fallen apart and I have been wandering around this city all by myself. I have cried my eyes out over it several times since it happened.

I did ask today where things stand right now between us and got 7.2...a line which certainly doesn't seem to indicate any problem.

Also,

"What can I expect from my relationship with him? 46.1 ...another line promising "great good fortune". I mean...is there a way to read that line less positively?

Yes, 42.5 is a very, very positive line. I don't know what to make of the answer given what happened...unless what seems very bad right now...isn't. Maybe it just SEEMS awful. It's possible, I suppose, that we will reconcile and everything will be wonderful. I don't know. Maybe the situation hasn't fully unfolded.

 

[Liselle]

I did ask today where things stand right now between us and got 7.2...a line which certainly doesn't seem to indicate any problem.

"The king issues a mandate three times" could mean that things change a lot, and you will have to keep changing how you deal with it.

"Positioned in the centre of the army" - you can't just observe this from the sidelines, you have to position yourself in the middle of it; you have to hang in there.

I am confused how these lines fit with 53.6, which we thought meant that your relationship is over?

Argh. I guess in a way every bit of this could be explained by 7.2 - things are changing a lot. As Trojina pointed out, and people on here say just in general, it's impossible for the I Ching to tell you where your relationship stands, or what your friend's thoughts are, or any such thing, if in reality the status is uncertain and your friend doesn't know himself what he wants. If one minute he's feeling emotionally attached to you, and the next minute that scares him and he thinks he should pull away, the I Ching can't really give you a good reading.

 

[esolo]

"f one minute he's feeling emotionally attached to you, and the next minute that scares him and he thinks he should pull away, the I Ching can't really give you a good reading.

I think this makes sense. He is indeed very confused...and agitated in the mind. The last time I saw him he was babbling.

I will hang in there and see how 46.1 develops.

(Btw...when he stood me up it was 28.3 I received as to why...not 23.3)

 

[Trojina]

I'm lost, first you said

For example, I asked about moving to this new city and living with a friend there. I got 42.5. I thought...wow..this is terrific.

What happened in reality?

Well, I'm no longer even talking to this person because he has behaved so badly toward me.

so I thought he had invited you to live with him...but then you said

Well....we have developed an emotional attachment to each other. It was the first time I had seen him in several years and we ended up kissing quite passionately (We had never been intimate before). Nothing else happened. However, there was definitely something quite intense there. I feel that I would fall deeply in love with him if it continued. So, it was no longer simply a matter of helping me move to this new city.

The next morning he had trouble talking to me and I rushed out and back to my hotel. I was shaken by the experience. I wasn't expecting to feel that deeply about him.

So you weren't that close, you weren't going to live together as you were staying in a hotel. So in the light of that where would you think 42.5 stands ? I mean you couldn't interpret it as 'go and live in a city with someone you hardly know and everything will be fine' could you ?

I mean 42.5 merely assures you you have a good heart and that is enough. It's not a guarantee that he would think of asking you to live with him is it ?

Initially you said you found it disturbing Yi gave you what seemed a wrong answer. What I find increasingly disturbing is how people here take readings sort of out of context far above and beyond the reality they face. I mean what he says about the relationship and what he does about the relationship are far more important than what you understand of the I Ching readings.

Anyway the main issue is now surely where you are going to live since from what I understand you are in a hotel in a strange city ? That will be expensive. Have I got the story all wrong ?

 

[Trojina]

When the answers don't seem to match reality AT ALL

Taking the thread title...do we have the nub of the problem which is that you didn't take reality into account in the first place ?

I am aware of sounding like a lawyer for the prosecution but I'm just trying to ascertain the facts here.

If I have it right you have gone to a strange city in the hope of living with this man who you thought you could live with because you got 42.5 ? You found whilst he seem attracted to you he doesn't seem keen on sort of taking you into his home. He is acting like someone who wants a bit of distance. You are now very upset, alone in a strange city and living in a hotel ?


BTW if you got 28.3 as for why he stood you up then it's clearly too much responsibility for him and he is shying away from that.

I will hang in there and see how 46.1 develops.

it's not 46.1 that needs to develop is it. I'd say you are using the I Ching in place of interacting with what reality is telling you

 

[Liselle]

Trojina, I had somehow gotten the idea that Esolo and this man were discussing living together just as friends. Now that I think about it, I actually don't know where I got that idea, but I was thinking about all the readings from that starting point.

And then they had that moment Esolo mentioned, and things between them changed, etc.

Maybe I was all wrong in the first place.

 

[Trojina]

Ah yes here is the bit I missed

So, in a nutshell...this went from a friends thing into a romantic thing. I got upset about being stood up...he got upset about the fact that the intimacy even happened saying that he cannot get into a relationship right now because of some things he has going on. I don't know if there really is something...or he's just a bit freaked out. At any rate...we are avoiding each other now. The whole thing seems to have fallen apart and I have been wandering around this city all by myself. I have cried my eyes out over it several times since it happened.

well it sounds quite an extreme situation and many questions have been asked about what he will do next etc. You had 53.3 early in the thread which doesn't bode well but now you have 46.1..

What can I expect from him? 53 line 3. I can expect him to act with impetuousness?

You only asked that yesterday so can other answers like 46.1 mean anything, I mean if you ask the same question over and over you will get confused. 53.3 shows someone not fulfilling their role...so when you say

"What can I expect from my relationship with him? 46.1 ...another line promising "great good fortune". I mean...is there a way to read that line less positively?

well what about the 53.3 ? If you keep asking the same question how would you know which answer to take anyway. 53.3 describes what he has done so far.
Whether he is freaked out or not surely he needs to offer some assistance as a friend would, help you figure what to do next.

 

[sooo]

Women think nothing of saying "I just would like to be friends." So, why is it so different when the guy feels that way? I mean, what's so hard to understand when a guy is only open to a friendship without all the drama? And, I agree with 'Jina here, why not just speak with him about it, without being on the defensive, rather than expecting his true feelings to come to you clearly from the IC?

 

[esolo]

Women think nothing of saying "I just would like to be friends." So, why is it so different when the guy feels that way? I mean, what's so hard to understand when a guy is only open to a friendship without all the drama? And, I agree with 'Jina here, why not just speak with him about it, without being on the defensive, rather than expecting his true feelings to come to you clearly from the IC?

I will need to explain what happened in more detail. I can see that it's confusing people.

This guy pursued me for 1 year....continuously. We Skyped, chatted etc...for a year. (We knew each other in person before this) I never chased him. This is how we (or at least myself) ended up emotionally attached. It's why we ended up kissing and it's why I was pissed off when he told me that nonsense about just "being friends". At one point I told him that I liked him as more than a friend and he said, "Me too"...so there are a lot of mixed messages here.

Obviously, I wouldn't ask the Yi if he were able to give me an answer. I asked him first and he just babbled.

 

[Trojina]

Well the main thing is you are keeping safe and well and not wandering about a strange city like a lost soul. Will you go home ?

I think I understand it now. You came as a friend but he kissed you, made a date, then didn't get back to you. That's mean. Even if he felt freaked out by getting into something he didn't want to he could at least call to see you are okay and go on being friends surely and at least talk about it. Why just abandon you in a strange place !

The main thing now is to take care of yourself. Anyway maybe when he comes to his senses he will call...or have you tried calling him ?

 

[esolo]

So you weren't that close, you weren't going to live together as you were staying in a hotel.

We were friends who hadn't seen each other in several years. About a year ago we started communicating again...via online chat, Skype etc....and he actively pursued me in this manner. He continually asked me to come see him and to think about possibly moving. However, I had some business which made that difficult. Finally, I had the chance to go and I went. I didn't want to stay with him because I hadn't seen him in several years and I wanted to maintain a certain amount of distance between us at first....even though we had spent a lot of time communicating online. Perhaps I was wrong. Maybe I should have stayed with him. I don't know.

I'm back home now and I'm looking at the other readings I did before I went:

What can I expect from him when I go there?

38.5: Remorse disappears. The companion bites his way through the wrappings. If one goes to him, how could it be a mistake?

This doesn't feel like what happened at all. Maybe I don't understand the line.

What do I need to know about his feelings for me?

53.4 The wild goose gradually draws near the tree. Perhaps it will find a flat branch. No blame.

What are his intentions toward me?

30.2 Yellow light. Supreme good fortune.

Doesn't sound bad at all.

What do I need to know about seeing him again?

3.4 Horse and wagon part. Strive for union. To go brings good fortune. Everything acts to further.

This one is curious. Did the "horse and wagon" part?

I'm sorry but I just don't see that any of these answers hinted at what eventually transpired. Maybe I'm just a crummy interpreter of the Yi.

 

[esolo]

The main thing now is to take care of yourself. Anyway maybe when he comes to his senses he will call...or have you tried calling him ?

I have cut all contact with him...for now at least. I'm pretty upset.

 

[esolo]

You came as a friend but he kissed you, made a date, then didn't get back to you. That's mean.

I would say that we were more than friends by the time I arrived. We had just never been intimate.

The night I arrived we kissed and I spent the night at his place. Nothing happened though...apart from the kissing. The next morning he was having trouble looking me in the eye. I was shocked. I slammed the door as I left and went back to my hotel and cried. Later on he texted me about dinner...and then stood me up.

The next evening I went over to his place in order to talk with him about it. He was extremely nervous and then gave me the speech about wanting to be "just friends"...but then said "Me too" after I told him that I liked him as more than a friend. I wasn't having any of it and we had a mild row. I left and we haven't spoken since.

I don't see much point in attempting to speak to him again. It was appalling behavior.

 

[esolo]

The reason, of course, that I started this thread is the fact that I didn't see any of this hinted at in the readings I did before I went.

Naturally, I wanted to know what I was getting into and I think it was OK to ask the Yi about it.

 

[Trojina]

I'm sorry but I just don't see that any of these answers hinted at what eventually transpired. Maybe I'm just a crummy interpreter of the Yi.

Eeerm well first, even here, I've pointed out you asked the same question several times about what you could expect. You got totally differing answers of 53.3 (which is what he did, ie abandoned you) and 46.1 which makes no sense given the circumstances. I was wondering if you had asked lots of questions before the list of questions you gave in the post above and forgotten them. If you do lots of casts you will get gibberish in the end.

OTOH your experience here is not unusual...and it's actually why I am always banging on about Yi and relationship questions. They can be misleading. Why ? Lots of reasons I guess. They are about others feelings often which change all the time....and also our idea of 'good fortune' ie being in a happy relationship etc etc is not the same as true growth and happiness according to Yi. (Yi doesn't seem to care about money much either )

I think anyone who has consulted for any time will come across this phenomenon in relationship questions. We feel a connection, we ask, answers confirm...hence our feelings grow. It kind of spreads out like a pebble thrown in a pond...and we get further and further removed then if we are talking to Yi about 'his feelings' rather than him. If it weren't an issue why else would Hilary write a great long Sticky on asking about relationship questions. It is anyway the reason I am always posting that sticky.


Having said all that, on reading your story about him inviting you to come and so on I can see why you are so upset. It really is a shame this has happened. I'm glad you are home now anyway.


Maybe your next question could be about you ? What you need to do next to feel better. Have a short break from asking about him.

 

[esolo]

I'm sorry...it wasn't 53.3 that I can expect. It was 51.3.

 

[Liselle]

and also our idea of 'good fortune' ie being in a happy relationship etc etc is not the same as true growth and happiness according to Yi.

The thing is, though, doesn't the I Ching have lines to say that? Although maybe that's what 53.6 was saying - that this relationship may be over, but there was still some kind of "gift" from it.

I don't know. Unpleasant news, delivered straightforwardly, is one thing - putting a pink suit on it and making it seem like lollipops is something else again.