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Where does Stephen Karcher get his wild stories from?!

IrfanK

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I found Stephen Karcher's translation of the I Ching and his commentaries online at

https://motheringchange.com/

Phew! Where on earth does he get these wild stories from?! I mean, they are great fun and exciting, but .... where do they come from? Do they all come from some sort of hidden body of literature that nobody else has discovered yet? Or does he access them through some sort of intuitive process? Through dreams and visions?

I think @hilary described Karcher as "the anti-Balkin." I can see exactly what she means! Although if you read their respective commentaries for a particular hexagram, you can definitely see that they are talking about the same thing. It's just that Karcher goes off in multiple exciting, weird directions.

Don't get me wrong. I love his stories. They really seem to go deeply into the images. And I gather he is a respected sinologist with good language skills. So I'm sure it's not just wild flights of fantasy, but ...

Just to give an example of what I mean, look at 10 Lu. What the I Ching actually says is this:

THE JUDGMENT
Treading on the tail of the tiger.
It does not bite.
Success.


THE IMAGE
Heaven above, the lake below:
This is the image of Treading.
Thus the superior person distinguishes between the high and the low,
Improving the hearts and minds of ordinary people.


Somehow, out of that, Karcher gets the following story:

Here the accumulated power of the Small sets out to find a new destiny. Treading is the center of a complex series of myths and rituals linking sexual intercourse, fertility, intercourse with spirits and the Wu or Intermediaries who facilitate it in the Hidden Temple and at the Earth Altar. It points at the Spring and Autumn River-Mountain festivals, exorcisms, the birth of medicine, the miraculous birth of First Ancestor and the origin of agriculture. The term “lu, treading” suggests grass, thus life, birth and sprouts. It is the Corpse-Embodier (shi) at high ancestral ritual and all those who work with the dead and the spirits who control the winds. It is the dangerous process of directing a ritual invocation, waking the earth to open the fields in spring. It suggests the ge-vine sandals of marriage and the birth of the Founding Ancestor, when Lady Yuan of Jiang “trod on the big toe of Di’s footprint and conceived in awe”. The site of this occurrence is the Mountain Shrine or Hidden Temple, the lower hidden (xia mi) where the Tiger Spirit dwells. Altars were established here to make the jiao-sacrifice to the High Lord, sites of conception in the spirit. The ones who did this were the Wu who Tread in the Footprints, the Joyous Dancers who go out to the Mountain Shrine to mate with the Tiger Spirit, calling the spirit down. They exorcise demons and pray for blessings: long life, wealth, health, fertility and the power and virtue that enobles us.

Where does it all come from? It certainly sounds a lot more exciting than the staid old Protestant missionary studiously sitting down with the aging Confucians of the final days of the Chinese Empire! But ... is it the I Ching?

PS Despite the fact that Indonesia's international mail service seems to have broken down entirely this year, I searched around through Amazon's second hand book sellers to find a copy of Total I Ching. I can't resist! Let's see if it makes it across the Great Water.
 
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hilary

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I know the feeling. I'd kill for a footnote.

Here the accumulated power of the Small sets out to find a new destiny.
Sequence/ Pair with 9, which has become 'accumulated smallness' instead of 'accumulating done in a small way'. The Xugua (Sequence wing) says,
'Things are tamed, and then there are the rituals. And so Treading follows.'
So there's that. 10 has its associations with right conduct and getting the rituals right. I look at that and think a) we start farming, so we have domesticated animals to use in offerings and we can plan a ritual calendar and b) we start farming, so we need to be able to plan ahead (should we open this land for ploughing? will it rain?), and hence we need to talk to the spirits a lot more, and we develop a ritual system for that. Less poetic.
Treading is the center of a complex series of myths and rituals linking sexual intercourse, fertility, intercourse with spirits and the Wu or Intermediaries who facilitate it in the Hidden Temple and at the Earth Altar.
I've heard of the Wu - female shamans, I think - and of an Earth Altar, though I'm afraid I'm a little hazy about the details, but not of a Hidden Temple.
It points at the Spring and Autumn River-Mountain festivals,
I have never found out what those are
exorcisms, the birth of medicine,
???
the miraculous birth of First Ancestor and the origin of agriculture.
Finally something I know. This comes from Song 245, about the miraculous conception and birth of Hou Ji, who invented agriculture. Here it is:
As you see, his mother conceived when she trod - name of hexagram - in god's footprint. There are no tigers anywhere in sight, but I believe they are still protectors of children and fertility.
When I can find what I've done with my copy of Anne Birrell's mythology book, I'll see if there are any other sources.
The term “lu, treading” suggests grass,
I don't know how. Here it is:

thus life, birth and sprouts. It is the Corpse-Embodier (shi) at high ancestral ritual
I know this one, too: 履 is also the name of the person who represents the ancestor at a feast. My only slight worry is that I can't find where I know this from. @heylise - help?

It does hold together, the idea that rituals to make the ancestors, like treading close to a tiger, are things you shouldn't attempt unless you know how to get them right.
and all those who work with the dead and the spirits who control the winds. It is the dangerous process of directing a ritual invocation, waking the earth to open the fields in spring. It suggests the ge-vine sandals of marriage
???
and the birth of the Founding Ancestor, when Lady Yuan of Jiang “trod on the big toe of Di’s footprint and conceived in awe”.
Back to the Song.
The site of this occurrence is the Mountain Shrine or Hidden Temple, the lower hidden (xia mi) where the Tiger Spirit dwells. Altars were established here to make the jiao-sacrifice to the High Lord, sites of conception in the spirit. The ones who did this were the Wu who Tread in the Footprints, the Joyous Dancers who go out to the Mountain Shrine to mate with the Tiger Spirit, calling the spirit down. They exorcise demons and pray for blessings: long life, wealth, health, fertility and the power and virtue that enobles us.
Ah - this last part sounds like something we could look up, somewhere, maybe...? anyone...?
 

IrfanK

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Hmm. Fascinating.

I know the feeling. I'd kill for a footnote

I wonder why he didn't include them? Apart from practical reasons, like they would make his book much longer and some publishers don't like them. But he must realize that not one in a hundred of even his interested readers will catch all, or even most, of the references. It successfully evokes curiosity, though. Maybe that's the point. Evocative associations.

I chuckled when I saw that Balkin is a constitutional lawyer. I'm sure he writes clear, cogent legal briefs.
 
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Freedda

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I will keep my comments about Karcher to a dull roar.

At the start of this thread, you are comparing someone's translation of the Judgement and Image text (which is what someone thinks the text 'actually says') with Karcher's very long, mytho-poetic commentary about the hexgram.

They are two different things. What you are sharing here is what Karcher 'thinks' the Yijing's text means, and he uses myth (most of it unknown to me and to most mere mortals) to explain that.

I often here people say they 'like' Karcher, follow by them saying that they have very little or no clue what he's talking about. That's fine but it's sort of like me saying I really, really like to hear people speak Klingon ....

I recently did a reading and then compared my ideas with Karcher's. I felt we were saying a lot of the same things, except I didn't talk about Yu the Great, the Ghost River, the Zone of Radical Transformation, or the Mediator, Matchmaker, Gatekeeper, or Navigator, or the Inspiring Force of the Dragon, or a Sacred Sickness, or the Moon Cult, etc, etc, in my interpretation.

If you or anyone finds meaning or inspiration in Karcher, that's fine.

However, what I often wonder is, are people liking the idea of a mythic, poetic, shamanistic, Jungian .... etc. I Ching, regardless of if they understand it or can make use of it? This is sort of the struggle I went through: I really, really wanted to like what he says, in part because it's so ... well, mythic, poetic, shamanic, ancient, Jungian, spiritual .... But I feel now that I don't really understand him, so it's not very useful to me - or he says things in 50 words when 10 will do.

Okay, that's sort of a dull roar. All the best ....
 
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IrfanK

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Hahahaha. A great dull roar!

At the start of this thread, you are comparing someone's translation of the Judgement and Image text (which is what someone thinks the text 'actually says') with Karcher's very long, mytho-poetic commentary about the hexgram.

True. But I was saying that I had no idea how he got from A (the Judgement and Image) to B (him commentary). If Hilary or Balkin provided a commentary, it may involve a few leaps of imagination, but they would both link it clearly back to what the Yi actually said.

However, what I often wonder is, are people liking the idea of a mythic, poetic, shamanistic, Jungian .... etc. I Ching, regardless of if they understand it or can make use of it? This is sort of the struggle I went through: I really, really wanted to like what he says, in part because it's so ... well, mythic, poetic, shamanic, ancient, Jungian, spiritual .... But I feel now that I don't really understand him, so it's not very useful to me - or he says things in 50 words when 10 will do.

Fair cop, Gov! That's exactly why I like him. But to be fair, for each hexagram, he gives "the voices of the mother" and the "voices of the father." And it's the "mother's voice" that is the mythic, poetic, shamanic, ancient, Jungian, spiritual part, but the "father's voice" is always as straightforward, logical and clear as any of the others.

Commentaries always seem to be a trade off between ambiguity and over-simplification. I think that's the point of the difference between Balkin and Karcher, at least his "mother's voice" sections. As a beginner (in a context where everyone is a beginner), I like looking at Balkin first, because it gives me such a nice, clear idea of what the implications of each hexagram is. But I do like Hilary, exactly because she puts some ambiguity back in.

So, Karcher quite usefully divides his commentaries into two parts, with a framework to explain why he uses a completely different approach in each of those parts.
 

IrfanK

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That's fine but it's sort of like me saying I really, really like to hear people speak Klingon ....

Maybe more like when you only understand one in seven words of Klingon: "War ... blablabla ... total annihilation ... blablabla ... complete control of the known universe ... blablabla ..." That would probably keep your interest level up, particularly if you lived on a neighboring planet.

PS I have to say, I don't like Karcher's actual translations of the Yi that much. Kind of clunky and pseudo-archaic, like the poetry in a science fantasy novel. I really do think old Wilhelm's translation is my favorite, at least in terms of how it sounds and feels, although I make minor edits in my mind as I read (swap "fellowship with men" with "community"; switch "Army" to "Multitudes," replace "the superior man" with "the aware person," and so on).
 
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Freedda

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... for each hexagram, he gives "the voices of the mother" and the "voices of the father."
Yes, that's on the motheringchange website I believe, but I was mainly referring to his book, total i ching.

Commentaries always seem to be a trade off between ambiguity and over-simplification.
Of late, I am learning to work with the Yi without looking at the commentaries at all, not even the 'Image' commentaries - which I think Karcher calls the 'voice of the shaman' (or some such thing) in his book.

So far I quite like it, in part because I don't have to figure out what someone else thought about the Yi, and whether or not I like them, or if they are correct, or .... It's quite freeing actually - but maybe not everyone's cup of tea.

all the best ....
 

IrfanK

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Yes, that's on the motheringchange website I believe, but I was mainly referring to his book, total i ching.

Ah, okay. I've only see motheringchange. He doesn't do that with his book?

Of late, I am learning to work with the Yi without looking at the commentaries at all, not even the 'Image' commentaries - which I think Karcher calls the 'voice of the shaman' (or some such thing) in his book.

That sounds great! But you can probably only do it if you have read some of the commentaries in the past and absorbed the ideas. But yeah, great. Until very recently, I often did just read the Judgement, get completely confused, and then run to the commentary of whichever book. The Foundations course has been really good for learning to at least stop and reflect a bit before doing that.
 
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Freedda

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He doesn't do that with his book?
Re; 'That' - what's the 'that' refer to in your sentence?

But you can probably only do it if you have read some of the commentaries in the past and absorbed the ideas.
Not really. There are some people in the class who are very new to the Yi, and don't have any background with it. I am using a new (for me) translation, which doesn't have commentary. Sometimes I'll read text that I remember from other readings, and sometimes I don't recognize the text at all - but in either case, the idea is to approach it afresh, and see what I can glean from the words and words' images - and not at all from the commentaries.

For example, I did a reading a week or so ago and got Line 28.5, which reads, in part, 'a gnarled willow puts forth flowers. Old woman takes a young husband' - and in my reading I saw this old woman and what she is doing as a good thing.

Wilhelm sees this in a less positive light - "a withered poplar that flowers exhausts its energies" - but if I had paid attention to his 'commentary' I would not have gotten the response I did - which fit the reading quite well.

All the best, d.
 
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Freedda

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Dividing his commentary into voice of the mother and voice of the father.
In his 'total i ching', no, though he does divide it into sections that are called (if I remember), 'the voice of the shaman' and 'the voice of the scholar', and maybe others - and I think he uses even more of of his mythic-poetic words and phrases.

But I don't get any better sense in his book of where these come, except that he says that his is a myth-poetic interpretation and that he reaches back into the 'Neolithic' for his sources - which perhaps means he's read about rituals, shamans, etc. going back 18,000 or so years before the Yijing and applies them in his reading ...

... so now we have a Yijing that's mythic, poetic, shamanistic ... AND Neolithic! Again, maybe someone's cup of tea, but not mine.

Just in case you think I'm totally diss'ing Karcher ... a few years ago I found a few YouTube videos of Karcher teaching the I Ching, and I really liked what he said about his overall ideas and approach to using the Yi. Unfortunately, those videos are no longer around.
 
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Freedda

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.... to laugh at his hair ....
As aside, I like Karcher's ponytail. I might grow one too, if I had enough hair left!

And as another aside, the last most of us knew, Stephen was living in Port Townsend Washington (state), which is a half hour car ride, then a half hour ferry ride from where I live. A number of people have tried to contact him recently, and as far as I know no one has heard. Just speculating, but he could be on retreat and does not want to be disturbed, or he's move somewhere else, or something more serious has happened.

All the best, D.
 

hilary

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I hope he's doing well. I've learned a whole lot from him, and he has been very generous sharing his time and ideas with me. Excellent teacher, very good diviner too - startlingly firm and clear.
 

hilary

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(Just deleted some posts - an original and some responses. Please pm me if you have any questions or comments.)
 

charly

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(Just deleted some posts - an original and some responses. Please pm me if you have any questions or comments.)
Hi, Hilary:

Thanks for doing it!

Scrolling up I saw some open questions. I believe that many answers are provided by an article of the late Prof. Chow Tse-Tsung (1) that once I recommended to Bruce:

Chow Tse-Tsung: "The Childbirth Myth and Ancient Chinese Medicine - A Study of Aspects of the Wu Tradition," in a book edited by Roy and Tsien, available in Google Books that was wrongly indexed as by Joseph Needham.

Meanwhile I find my notes for posting some QUOTES, in Google Books with a little of luck can read the whole article, if not can search for "KO VINE" being noticed that Prof. Chow used WADE instead of PINYIN "GE VINE"

All the best,


Charly
_________________________
(1)
Chow_Tse-Tsung.jpg
Ch.
 
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IrfanK

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Chow Tse-tung: "The Childbirth Myth and Ancient Chinese Medicine - A Study of Aspects of the Wu Tradition," in a book edited by Roy and Tsien, available in Google Books ....

I googled around to see if I could find the article, but only found references to it in other articles, usually behind the JSTOR wall. If anyone finds an open, publicly accessible link, please share! Thanks!
 

charly

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I googled around to see if I could find the article, but only found references to it in other articles, usually behind the JSTOR wall. If anyone finds an open, publicly accessible link, please share! Thanks!
Hi Irfan;

In my post I put this link to
Google Books where there is availabe a parcial preview. if it doesn't function for you try searching for "childbirth myth", "chow tse-tsung" or "Science in Traditional China: A Comparative Perspective Joseph Needham" as it's wrongly identified.

If not, wait than I will put some quotes.

All the best,


Charly
 
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charly

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...
When I can find what I've done with my copy of Anne Birrell's mythology book, I'll see if there are any other sources.
...
Back to the Song.
Ah - this last part sounds like something we could look up, somewhere, maybe...? anyone...?
...
Hi Hilary:

I remember that Anne Birrell said that it is uncertain the gender of HOU JI given that the title HOU keeps open the possibility of being read as LORD MILLET or LADY MILLET, being the last more compliant with the extendend custom that agricultural deities were mainly GODDESSES.

Now, about the JIAO MEI RITE, or GAO MEI I believe that some quotes of David Knetchges in "Ways with Words" edited by Pauline Yu can be illustrative. Be said that Knetchges quotes Wen Yiduo and Chow Tse-Tsung among others.

Sheng_Min_19.png

Sheng_Min_20.png
Sheng_Min_21.png
Sheng_Min_22.png
Ways with Words:
Writing about Reading Texts from Early China

Edited by Pauline Yu, Peter Bol, Stephen Owen, Willard Peterson
UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA PRESS , pages 19-22.

Available in Google Books parcial preview.

I'm wondering if the reason why trying to discard HOU JI wasn't that the child was a GIRL!

All the best,

Charly
 
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hilary

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Thank you, Charly! I don't suppose you also have an idea where the 'Lu as ancestor-embodier' idea comes from?

'Commentators and scholars have not been reluctant to offer answers to these questions.' - :LOL:
 

hilary

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I don't suppose you also have an idea where the 'Lu as ancestor-embodier' idea comes from?
There's etymology: the left side of 履 (name of the hexagram) is 尸, which means 'corpse' and 'person representing the dead during sacrifices'. Though since not every character with that component means 'corpse embodier', there must be more to it...
 

charly

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Thank you, Charly! I don't suppose you also have an idea where the 'Lu as ancestor-embodier' idea comes from?

'Commentators and scholars have not been reluctant to offer answers to these questions.' - :LOL:
Hi Hilary:

I didn't know that LU meant among other things the PERSONATOR of the DEAD in ceremonies related with ANCESTORS WHORSHIP, say, the person who represents an ancestor or ancestress, the person without whom the deceased should be unable to truly enjoy the blessings received in sacrifice. Unable to eat the food, unable to drink the wine, unable to enjoy received sexual partners (1).

The personator eats the meat, drinks the wine and makes love, all on behalf of the ancestor. It's supposed that the ancestor enjoyed much with those performances and can lead a quite bearable life, so to speak, in the afterlife.

It's said that grandchildren were often favorite personators, behaving with the utmost composure, but everything one hear cannot be trusted. One thing is the average behavior of elites in the Zhou realm and another the behavior of unsubjugated people from the South.

But coming back to LU, as you have said the traditional modern character 履, lu3, is a compound of , shi1 CORPSE/BODY radical and 復 , fu4, RETURN/COME BACK , truly compliant with the concept that PERSONATORS were those that make the DEAD COME BACK TO LIFE or at least ENJOY ITS BLESSINGS.

Must be said that the CORPSE/BODY radical shape looks like a side view of a BENT PERSON with PROTRUDING BUTTOCKS who can or cannot be dead. Some characters with that radical point to lower parts of anatomy or facts of phisiology of living persons.

Those components were valid from the SMALL SEAL script to the present day. But with BONE and BRONZE scripts things became more picturesque and suggestive.

See one bone and one bronze variants took from Zdic.net:
In the BONE character at left, the BENT person looks ALIVE bearing a BIG HORNED MASK and almost GIGANTIC FOOTWARE: maybe a shaman or a shamaness performing a SEDUCTIVE DANCE for attracting a spirit from heights to earth, say RETURNING TO ENJOY LIFE (2).

In the BRONZE character seems to bear a ONE-EYED MASK with HORNED HAT, RAISING HARMS, DANCING like a SPINNING TOP over a TOOTHED PIT (3).

(to be continued)​
Meanwhile those interested in shamanic stories between humans and immortals can download for free
Thomas Michael: "Shamanic Eroticism in the Jiu ge (Nine Songs) of Early China" from Academia.edu

All the best,

Charly

_____________________
(1) Of course that not all is food, drink and sex in life. There is also art, music, chants, theatre, pictures, hunting, gambling, reading poetry, philosophy, even divination or bedchamber arts. Of all this, important deads were provided in their graves, not only among the Chinese.

(2) Maybe the dancer is not wearing footware but STEPPING on FOOTPRINTS. I've already posted Wen Yiduo's point of view quoted in Pauline Yu's "Ways wuth Words" maybe inspired in stories from the "Chu Ci", "Songs of the South" , poetry from the southern kingdom of Chu.

(3) Maybe a TRAP, meaning the TRANSIENT EFFECTS of the performance, that like any other RITUAL needs some sort of pauted REPETITION. The ancestor or ancestress must not be forgotten.

Ch.
 
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hilary

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Charly, those two characters are amazing, but where did you find them?

Here is the 'body' component:
and
- that looks pretty consistently like a person, alive or dead.

And here is the whole thing:
https://hanziyuan.net/#履 (he has not found any early occurrences)
http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-mf/search.php?word=履 - that certainly does look quite different in the bronze character.
 

IrfanK

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Meanwhile those interested in shamanic stories between humans and immortals can download for free
Thomas Michael: "Shamanic Eroticism in the Jiu ge (Nine Songs) of Early China" from Academia.edu

That was a fun read! I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed by all the materials and sources that have been provided in response to my original question, but fascinated by the conversation. And it has pretty much convinced me that Karcher does at least base his interpretations on solid sources, even if he takes a few logical and imaginative leaps to get from A to B. But, like Hilary said, it would have been nice if he'd included the footnotes.
 

charly

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Charly, those two characters are amazing, but where did you find them?
Glad that you like it! The immediate source was the online chinese dictionary ZDIC.NET wich has, as far as I know, reputation of accuracy and reliability.

Here the whole set of BRONZE characters for 履, lu3 in Zdic.net, same of which also appears in Uncle Hanzi site:
The alreday quoted character is here the fifth of the first row.

Now I'm wondering if this character tried to reproduce the image of a dancing shaman, as I've thinked before, or if it is a conceptual addition that seeks to express the communion between the shaman dancing on the dangerous ground and the ancestor who comes down from the heights to take possession of the personator. Some of the variants looks like a big eye falling from the sky over a little bent person, the communion between the divinized deceased ancestor and the mortal descendant, grandchildren or shaman. (2)

I'm also wondering what's the meaning of the two little strokes at the low right corner of the last variants. Maybe a mark of reduplication pointing to the continuous, stubborn nature of the performance of a shaman dancing till exhaustion or the repetitiveness of the ritual. Or maybe mere dinamic lines expressing movement maybe things or ropes hanging from the holy garments.

Surely there are many other possibilities. Nobody's perfect.
Here is the 'body' component:
and
- that looks pretty consistently like a person, alive or dead.
May I say that the sequence of 尸, shi, variants looks like sketches decompossing the dancing movements as in a zoetrope device. If the corpse dances must be alive.
Zoetrope.jpg
But if there is a connection with death it must be a naked dance, nakedness that connects with the image of the dead soldiers left on the battlefield, stripped of their bronze weapons, clothes and shoes.

And here is the whole thing:
https://hanziyuan.net/#履 (he has not found any early occurrences)
http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-mf/search.php?word=履 - that certainly does look quite different in the bronze character.

All the best,

Charly

____________________
(1) Click on the link for going to the source page.
(2) See Wieger's "Chinese" Characters, p. 370.

Ancestor_Top_Dawn.jpg
Available preview in Google Books

Ch.
 
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charly

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Is that a vertical eye (as in 19), or a lidded vessel?
Hi Hilary:

Maybe both alternatives are possible.

I believe that in a context of traditional mainframe ANCESTOR's worship, being the ancestor male, omniscient and almost a GOD, it's natural that his approaching to earth be depicted like a falling big vertical EYE, meanig, why not? PROVIDENCE.

In a context of non mainframe worship, associated with strange periphereal enthnic customs, can be normal to think in a GODDESS reacting to an erotic performance of a SHAMAN who pretends to establish a SEXUAL COMMUNION with her. It's natural that the approaching of de Goddess be depicted as a THROWN SACRED LIDDED VESSEL meaning maybe CONSENT, willingness to throw away the flip flop / sandal, being both vessell and sandal FEMENINE SYMBOLS.

Tinking it well maybe both alternatives under certain conditions could be interchangeable.

All the best


Charly
____________________
(1) "Tirar la chancleta" in spanish means LOSING VIRGINITY that, of course, can happen to anyone be female or male.
Ch.
 

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