Clarity,
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Sequence/ Pair with 9, which has become 'accumulated smallness' instead of 'accumulating done in a small way'. The Xugua (Sequence wing) says,Here the accumulated power of the Small sets out to find a new destiny.
I've heard of the Wu - female shamans, I think - and of an Earth Altar, though I'm afraid I'm a little hazy about the details, but not of a Hidden Temple.Treading is the center of a complex series of myths and rituals linking sexual intercourse, fertility, intercourse with spirits and the Wu or Intermediaries who facilitate it in the Hidden Temple and at the Earth Altar.
I have never found out what those areIt points at the Spring and Autumn River-Mountain festivals,
???exorcisms, the birth of medicine,
Finally something I know. This comes from Song 245, about the miraculous conception and birth of Hou Ji, who invented agriculture. Here it is:the miraculous birth of First Ancestor and the origin of agriculture.
I don't know how. Here it is:The term “lu, treading” suggests grass,
I know this one, too: 履 is also the name of the person who represents the ancestor at a feast. My only slight worry is that I can't find where I know this from. @heylise - help?thus life, birth and sprouts. It is the Corpse-Embodier (shi) at high ancestral ritual
???and all those who work with the dead and the spirits who control the winds. It is the dangerous process of directing a ritual invocation, waking the earth to open the fields in spring. It suggests the ge-vine sandals of marriage
Back to the Song.and the birth of the Founding Ancestor, when Lady Yuan of Jiang “trod on the big toe of Di’s footprint and conceived in awe”.
Ah - this last part sounds like something we could look up, somewhere, maybe...? anyone...?The site of this occurrence is the Mountain Shrine or Hidden Temple, the lower hidden (xia mi) where the Tiger Spirit dwells. Altars were established here to make the jiao-sacrifice to the High Lord, sites of conception in the spirit. The ones who did this were the Wu who Tread in the Footprints, the Joyous Dancers who go out to the Mountain Shrine to mate with the Tiger Spirit, calling the spirit down. They exorcise demons and pray for blessings: long life, wealth, health, fertility and the power and virtue that enobles us.
I know the feeling. I'd kill for a footnote
At the start of this thread, you are comparing someone's translation of the Judgement and Image text (which is what someone thinks the text 'actually says') with Karcher's very long, mytho-poetic commentary about the hexgram.
However, what I often wonder is, are people liking the idea of a mythic, poetic, shamanistic, Jungian .... etc. I Ching, regardless of if they understand it or can make use of it? This is sort of the struggle I went through: I really, really wanted to like what he says, in part because it's so ... well, mythic, poetic, shamanic, ancient, Jungian, spiritual .... But I feel now that I don't really understand him, so it's not very useful to me - or he says things in 50 words when 10 will do.
That's fine but it's sort of like me saying I really, really like to hear people speak Klingon ....
Yes, that's on the motheringchange website I believe, but I was mainly referring to his book, total i ching.... for each hexagram, he gives "the voices of the mother" and the "voices of the father."
Of late, I am learning to work with the Yi without looking at the commentaries at all, not even the 'Image' commentaries - which I think Karcher calls the 'voice of the shaman' (or some such thing) in his book.Commentaries always seem to be a trade off between ambiguity and over-simplification.
Yes, that's on the motheringchange website I believe, but I was mainly referring to his book, total i ching.
Of late, I am learning to work with the Yi without looking at the commentaries at all, not even the 'Image' commentaries - which I think Karcher calls the 'voice of the shaman' (or some such thing) in his book.
Re; 'That' - what's the 'that' refer to in your sentence?He doesn't do that with his book?
Not really. There are some people in the class who are very new to the Yi, and don't have any background with it. I am using a new (for me) translation, which doesn't have commentary. Sometimes I'll read text that I remember from other readings, and sometimes I don't recognize the text at all - but in either case, the idea is to approach it afresh, and see what I can glean from the words and words' images - and not at all from the commentaries.But you can probably only do it if you have read some of the commentaries in the past and absorbed the ideas.
Re; 'That' - what's the 'that' refer to in your sentence?
In his 'total i ching', no, though he does divide it into sections that are called (if I remember), 'the voice of the shaman' and 'the voice of the scholar', and maybe others - and I think he uses even more of of his mythic-poetic words and phrases.Dividing his commentary into voice of the mother and voice of the father.
As aside, I like Karcher's ponytail. I might grow one too, if I had enough hair left!.... to laugh at his hair ....
Hi, Hilary:(Just deleted some posts - an original and some responses. Please pm me if you have any questions or comments.)
Chow Tse-tung: "The Childbirth Myth and Ancient Chinese Medicine - A Study of Aspects of the Wu Tradition," in a book edited by Roy and Tsien, available in Google Books ....
Hi Irfan;I googled around to see if I could find the article, but only found references to it in other articles, usually behind the JSTOR wall. If anyone finds an open, publicly accessible link, please share! Thanks!
Hi Hilary:...
When I can find what I've done with my copy of Anne Birrell's mythology book, I'll see if there are any other sources.
...
Back to the Song.
Ah - this last part sounds like something we could look up, somewhere, maybe...? anyone...?
...
There's etymology: the left side of 履 (name of the hexagram) is 尸, which means 'corpse' and 'person representing the dead during sacrifices'. Though since not every character with that component means 'corpse embodier', there must be more to it...I don't suppose you also have an idea where the 'Lu as ancestor-embodier' idea comes from?
Hi Hilary:Thank you, Charly! I don't suppose you also have an idea where the 'Lu as ancestor-embodier' idea comes from?
'Commentators and scholars have not been reluctant to offer answers to these questions.' -
Meanwhile those interested in shamanic stories between humans and immortals can download for free
Thomas Michael: "Shamanic Eroticism in the Jiu ge (Nine Songs) of Early China" from Academia.edu
Glad that you like it! The immediate source was the online chinese dictionary ZDIC.NET wich has, as far as I know, reputation of accuracy and reliability.Charly, those two characters are amazing, but where did you find them?
May I say that the sequence of 尸, shi, variants looks like sketches decompossing the dancing movements as in a zoetrope device. If the corpse dances must be alive.Here is the 'body' component:
and
- that looks pretty consistently like a person, alive or dead.Chinese Etymology 字源
Chinese Etymology 字源, Chinese character history and ancient Chinaese character (Orachle characters, Bronze characters, Seal characters, Shuowen Jiezi, Liushutong) analysis and research 汉字历史和古汉字(甲骨文, 金文, 篆字, 说文解字, 六书通)研究与分析. Search 100K+ ancient Chinese characters and etymology. 查询10万+古汉字和字源.hanziyuan.net
And here is the whole thing:
https://hanziyuan.net/#履 (he has not found any early occurrences)
http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-mf/search.php?word=履 - that certainly does look quite different in the bronze character.
Hi Hilary:Is that a vertical eye (as in 19), or a lidded vessel?
Hi Hilary:Is your screenshot from the url you gave, https://www.zdic.net/zd/zx/jw/履 ? As I don’t get any images on that page. Does anyone else?
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).