Whirlpools of Jun

[my_key]

I've been looking at 32.1 at see that Karcher translates in his Total I Ching book

Deepening Persevering
Trying to fix the whirlpools of Jun
Trial: Trap! The Way closes
There is no advantageous direction.

Jun = king / sovereign, as in junzi perhaps, but I can find no reference to 'the whirlpools of Jun'.
From the chinese texts I have looked I can not see too much that can be translated as 'whirlpool' for this line, but I'm still learning here.
I'm wondering if someone can help me by shedding some light on this line and how Karcher may have come up with this translation.

Many Thanks

 

[Liselle]

Here (a site which uses "a" Karcher translation), the "Jun" part is left out. He translates it as "You try to fix the swirling waters."

(That does not, of course, answer your question...)

 

[moss elk]

Karchers work is not the I Ching.

His is just another of many works by people (like a few who have come and gone from this site...) who use their own personal inner imagery (and imagination!) and come up with something utterly foreign to the meanings in Yi. It is a personal madness (and how incredibly arrogant to presume that they know better than thousands of years of comprehension by other scholars and diviners) put out into the world. I advise avoiding it, even if he gets some text right every now and then.

32.1 is like picking out the decorations in your future home, when you haven't yet went out on the first date.

 

[Liselle]

Per Wikipedia there was someone called "Di Jun." Don't know if it's the same. The article's pretty short. (I Googled "jun chinese mythology" - maybe there's something to be found, maybe not.)

32.1 is like picking out the decorations in your future home, when you haven't yet went out on the first date.

Good analogy.

 

[Liselle]

Here it says Di Jun was the father of the "Ten Suns who took it in turns to run the sky chariot." "Sky chariot" sounds 32-like, and the fact that ten suns turned out to be way too many seems in keeping with 32.1. But there's no mention of whirlpools. Whirlpools are pretty much the opposite of suns...

 

[Liselle]

Maybe what David said:

looking at this 'whirlpool of Jun' perhaps it's referring to the whirlwind created by 32's trigrams, thunder and wind

 

[hilary]

IMO, Moss Elk is not being fair to Karcher, who is always interpreting the words and structures of the Yi itself. Yes, with his own associations, but a) who doesn't? and b) his are typically the result of deep reading round the subject.

The exasperating thing is that, as a rule, he's not going to tell you where he got it from.

Jun is the first character of 32.1, the one I translate 'deep'. Here it is - 浚 . As you see, it has the 'water' radical.

Wenlin says it is also a place name. Maybe there are whirlpools there and Karcher knew about them?

(Stephen Field doesn't, though, and he is particularly good at picking up on references like that. He sees a reference to Yu the Great and translates 'his dredging was constant'.)

(I tried putting '浚 whirlpool' into Google. You should, too; it's all valuable research experience... )

 

[moss elk]

IMO, Moss Elk is not being fair to Karcher,

It's not fair to point out that the following is rubbish?

"Deepening Persevering
Trying to fix the whirlpools of Jun
Trial: Trap! The Way closes
There is no advantageous direction."

It isn't even in the same universe, muchless ballpark of meaning for 32.1

But, everyone gets an A for effort here,
it seems.

 

[hilary]

It's not fair to point out that the following is rubbish?

"Deepening Persevering
Trying to fix the whirlpools of Jun
Trial: Trap! The Way closes
There is no advantageous direction."

It isn't even in the same universe, muchless ballpark of meaning for 32.1

But, everyone gets an A for effort here,
it seems.

A basic problem with trying to translate the Yi is that practically every Chinese word contains the meanings of far more than one English word. Hence you are going to spend a lot of time selecting one possible meaning among many, and making a lot of others invisible. What to do?

Karcher's answer in TIC was to pile up translations of a single character or expression. So...

浚恆。貞凶。无攸利。

浚 comes out as 'deepening' (solid translation, I think), Jun (place name, ditto), and 'whirlpools' (could be, not sure).
恆 - persevering, fixing. Both good.

And 凶 becomes 'Trap! The Way closes' where I think 'misfortune' would probably do.

The idea of the line is that digging/deepening/dredging and persevering/fixing do not go well together for some reason. Why not? That would be a matter for interpretation - and Karcher's version suggests one, while Wilhelm's ('seeking duration too hastily') suggests another. I wouldn't advise making any definitive pronouncements about that. 貞凶...


(Just saw David's posts, and yes, agreed. I want to see the original, and I want footnotes.)

 

[hilary]

Er.... yes?

I'm not clear exactly when the change in meaning is supposed to have happened. (Is that in a article of Harmen's?) However, I have doubts about the usefulness or durability of an oracle that gives so much space just to saying, 'Favourable to divine.' You can imagine the conversations:
'How about doing the the thing?'
'Favourable to divine!'
'Yes, that's nice, I just did. OK, I'll ask again. What if I do the thing?'
'Favourable to divine!'
'Really? OK, maybe I should try cracking a tortoise shell instead.'

So this is why I go with 'constancy bears fruit', always with the understanding that the meaning of 'divination' is not far below the surface.

Ditto for some other early meanings - would this have been a useful oracular response? As if not, it probably wasn't what it meant.

 

[hilary]

Thanks. I especially like Brad's angle on it: the implication, and the common thread.

 

[my_key]

Sometimes, as I wander lonely as a cloud I find it useful to step into the poetic and mythical world of Karcher in full understanding that there is a government health warning attached to some lines as there is not always that footnote that brings with it a logical / factual reference. It's worth the risk though, in my opinion.

In the Karcher translation at the site Liselle identified he writes "You try to fix the swirling waters" and in both this and Total I Ching he warns against trying to fix the influence too soon, stay out of the depths of the situation and keep on an even keel. Maybe, the trap lies in being sucked down into the deeper waters by the strong currents of the whirlpool.

The current underlying 32 comes frome it's nuclear 43 which asks for decisiveness and not to be bobbed around, never knowing which way is up, if the choice has been to deep dive into the whirlpool ( of indecision? - paralysis by analysis ?). 43 only reaches out to those below after a period 'dispensing favour' ( brad) or of spreading benefits (Karcher). So there is a case for not trying to dive before you have learnt to swim properly. You may be only able to do the doggy paddle assisted by a rubber ring at the moment however content yourself with that and stay at the surface where you will make consistant progress. Swimming out of your depth would be a disaster for you.

For me 32.1, with or without a whirlpool, speaks of a need to persevere within your current ( get it? ) regime and accepting of your current limitations, rather than looking for a quick fix. Impatience and over-confidence could be the nemesis waiting for you below the surface.

 

[moss elk]

"You try to fix the swirling waters"

lol, he meant that fix!
It's problematic using an English word that also means 'repair'. The way he writes, it reads like he's talking about a plumber...

 

[Liselle]

he meant that fix!

Hilary often says "fix the omen" for 32. Same meaning of "fix."

Was that the whole trouble? Just ask next time, why don't you? Although, as usual, it turned out to be a good thread.

 

[moss elk]

Was that the whole trouble?

My complaint is with his word choice,
oh, in just about every hex he writes about,
examples:
hex 2: Earth potency: Field A chun tzu uses munificent actualizing-tao to carry the beings
hex 3: A chun tzu uses the canons to coordinate
hex 4: A chun tzuuses fruiting movement to nurture actualizing-tao. (is he describing a striptease and erection? c'mon!)
hex 5: Attending, possessing conformity . Shining Growing,
hex 6: possessing conformity. Blocking awe.
...that should be enough, I'll stop there.

as you can see...
his choices are...
not preferable.
This reviewer gives him an F+
And a thank you for the gift of laughter.

Just ask next time, why don't you?

I didn't ask because I was telling.

 

[charly]

Hilary often says "fix the omen" for 32. Same meaning of "fix."

Was that the whole trouble? Just ask next time, why don't you? Although, as usual, it turned out to be a good thread.

Hi, Liselle:

In the page you've suggested Karcher explains his point of view. I cannot copy and paste here a quote, look after the paragraph «Voice of the Mothers». There is also the Karcher's page ☺74Fixing the Omens»

About Consulting Change
The old character heng or fixing the omen shows a heart, a boat between two shores and the spiral path of the waxing moon. The imaginative perseverance it represents grows out of a real encounter with the symbols of Change, the inner ground that brings the blessings of the spirit.
Heng refers to creating rituals and symbols that fix a spirit influence so that its power and virtue (de) endures in the heart, solidifying our inner power and keeping harm away. The word is related to keng/moon, the path of the Moon and the old Moon Cult that read the Changes at key moments. It suggests the regular movement of a boat between two shores, the faithful heart, laws and habits, continuity in development. It sanctifies a center, like the circular furrow plowed around a new city, the rings that lovers share or the circle a shaman draws around a patient.
This imaginative practice fixes the experience of the spirit so that it can return again and again, changing the shape of the heart-mind into a self-contained and self-renewing whole.
A divinatory consultation is not predictive in a literal sense; rather, it helps you make the omens of Change an enduring part of your life. Confucius said: “It is said in Change: A person without heng will not succeed in working with the great symbols. How true! Not fixing the power and virtue of an omen will lead to failure. Just reading it is not enough.”

https://ichinglivingchange.org/fixing-the-omen-the-stories-of-the-time/

And here is the WHIRLPOOL:

𠄢​

... is an old variant of 亘 ,gen4, «extending all the way across / running all the way through» ,wich looks like the path of SUN and 亙 which looks more like the path of MOON. (1)

Source: https://hanziyuan.net/#亙

All the best,

Charly
___________________
(1) It is also said that the central shape is a BOAT, with a cyclic approach to one SHORE or another, say, providing an enduring passage from one realm to another, the world to the otherworld.
Ch.

 

[Liselle]

Which of his books is that from? I just used ctrl-f to search this hexagram 4 page, and the only two occurrences of "fruit" were in the seasonal hexagrams where he clearly means the uncomplicated edible kind.

Maybe we need all the Karcher books to understand Karcher. I've noticed his comments about the Shadow and Ideal aren't exactly the same from one publication to another.

From Symbolic Life, via Hilary's Shadow course pdf:
Hexagram 46: ‘Open your heart and bring your inner and your outer lives
together and the spirit will draw near.’
Hexagram 19: ‘If you dissolve your old identity to make way for the new, you
will spontaneously ascend to a higher spiritual level.’

From the Family Way website:
46: 'Rid yourself of pain and sorrow and ascend to a higher level. Set a goal and work towards it. Make the effort. Inner self-cultivation now brings you a deep faith in the overall processes of life. This is a time to bring your inner and outer lives together ([Ideal] 61). Do not focus on help from those above you. ([Shadow]19).'
19: Something great is approaching. Welcome it without grasping. Let it grow and do not rush to completion. This is the point when positive energy emerges. Inner self-reflection now brings a deep faith in the overall processes of life. Dissolve your old identity ([Ideal] 59). Do not focus on climbing to a higher level ([Shadow] 46).

They end up meaning the same thing, but maybe not at casual glance. 46, for instance: Symbolic Life makes it clear that if you do 61 (the Ideal), 19 (the Shadow) will then happen, and that's a good thing. Family Way makes it sound only as if the Shadow is to be actively avoided. It doesn't say that the point, per Karcher, is for it to be spontaneously liberated - you have to already understand how he uses Ideals and Shadows.

 

[moss elk]

19: Something great is approaching. Welcome it without grasping.

And here we see he made the fundamental mistake of thinking the greatness in 19 is external. The greatness in 19 is in you, the one who is approaching, planning and instructing, with sleeves rolled up, ready to sweat.

 

[Liselle]

...19 is one of those I have a hard time, er, grasping. So I don't know. Anything in the I Ching can be either internal or external, so I don't agree with you about that...

Hm. I was just about to say "but I don't know about the grasping part." But maybe "without grasping" means don't try to rush the outcome, or (Bradford) don't "[count on] the 8th Month´s harvest so far ahead of time. It is untimely to step back and admire your work now"? The "Arrival at the eighth month means a pitfall" phrase.

 

[moss elk]

Anything in the I Ching can be either internal or external.

Yes, I agree.

But in what he wrote about 19, he gives the
almost exact opposite advice of what 19 says

He advises to relax and retreat, a blessing is coming!, 19 advises the jun zi to approach and get to work.

F+

 

[my_key]

lol, he meant that fix!
It's problematic using an English word that also means 'repair'. The way he writes, it reads like he's talking about a plumber...

Interesting that you see the diverse meanings of fix as "problematic". Fix has such a beautiful and diverse repertoire. There is delightful poetry bursting from every aspect of it's being. It shines!

The important thing to remember about the plumber with respect to 32.1 is that you always have to wait for the plumber to turn up. Be patient and do the things you are good at and let him do his job when he arrives.

 

[my_key]

Maybe we need all the Karcher books to understand Karcher. I've noticed his comments about the Shadow and Ideal aren't exactly the same from one publication to another.

From Symbolic Life, via Hilary's Shadow course pdf:
Hexagram 46: ‘Open your heart and bring your inner and your outer lives
together and the spirit will draw near.’
Hexagram 19: ‘If you dissolve your old identity to make way for the new, you
will spontaneously ascend to a higher spiritual level.’

From the Family Way website:
46: 'Rid yourself of pain and sorrow and ascend to a higher level. Set a goal and work towards it. Make the effort. Inner self-cultivation now brings you a deep faith in the overall processes of life. This is a time to bring your inner and outer lives together ([Ideal] 61). Do not focus on help from those above you. ([Shadow]19).'
19: Something great is approaching. Welcome it without grasping. Let it grow and do not rush to completion. This is the point when positive energy emerges. Inner self-reflection now brings a deep faith in the overall processes of life. Dissolve your old identity ([Ideal] 59). Do not focus on climbing to a higher level ([Shadow] 46).

They end up meaning the same thing, but maybe not at casual glance. 46, for instance: Symbolic Life makes it clear that if you do 61 (the Ideal), 19 (the Shadow) will then happen, and that's a good thing. Family Way makes it sound only as if the Shadow is to be actively avoided. It doesn't say that the point, per Karcher, is for it to be spontaneously liberated - you have to already understand how he uses Ideals and Shadows.

Liselle
I think as Karcher was writing over time these differences show his thought process in action. He has modified his work to make it clearer to himself and hopefully to his readers.

I'm not sure how shadow and 46 and 19 have swirled into the waters of this thread however they do have a place with 32. 46 specifically at 32.4.

I have not partaken of Hilary's Shadow course but I have to confess that I like working in the shadowlands. I have found it useful to see the shadow as that part of us that holds the things we have repressed or suppressed over our lifetime. It holds powerful sway over our lives, what we say and what we do. It works in invisible ways and is the source of much of our pain and sorrow, as we see it. Strangely enough though, the shadow is actually one of our greatest allies. When we can reconcile with any part of our shadow we heal and with that healing comes a release of it's trapped energy. This can now be used in our outer world for positive, creative things rather than being tied and fixed upholding in place all of the masks that we needed to protect the vulnerability we had.

When we decide to bite off more than we can chew at 32.1 then there is a strong chance that the shadow will retain the upper hand and the masks will stay in place. Our actions are advised to approach the shadow gently, with compassion and not turn the situation into a turbulent arm wrestle. Working subtly on inner cultivation, more in a way of holding onto the small gains we have made as we walked through hex 31 than seeking world domination is the advice of 32.1. Through 32 the perseverance grows organically as the new boundaries become stronger and we discover more of our inner-self we become better positioned to understand what is going on within and around us to 'fix the omen'.

Persevering, the whole hexagram, looks to be more a journey of preparation. It's perhaps more a state of letting things approach us (come into our field of consciousness) rather than working hard with sleeves rolled up ( to use moss elk's phrase). Yes, we have to be diligent and enduring, we have to learn until we know what we have to give away (the sacrifice) to allow the energy to be used in a new way. The energy / spirit of greatness held within us is perhaps released through our own self education and tolerance / forgiveness of our shadow self and the situations and the people that helped the shadow aspect to form in the first place. When we have released the energy within us then that energy (greatness) is available for use in our outer world.

Finally, you talk about "spontaneously liberated". It seems to me that 32.1 is advocating a 'wu wei' approach and not to actively dive into the dark depths of your own shadow ( the whirlpool of Jun?), where the power of the vortex will be too great for you to contend with. It seems to me to be a clear case of trusting the process rather than looking to impose our own shadow-infected will onto things. Persevering is about playing the long game, building the foundations before raising the walls; a case of walking the road less travelled and allowing the horizon to come to you.

.....and maybe it's like none of these things.

 

[Liselle]

Liselle
I think as Karcher was writing over time these differences show his thought process in action. He has modified his work to make it clearer to himself and hopefully to his readers.

Oh sure, of course. I wasn't being completely, deadly serious. Someday I really do want to buy all of them, though.

I'm not sure how shadow and 46 and 19 have swirled into the waters of this thread

Just an example of a difference I noticed between Karcher's publications. (Am starting to think there's something seriously wrong with my post-writing. People not understanding them is becoming an epidemic. )

I have found it useful to see the shadow as that part of us that holds the things we have repressed or suppressed over our lifetime. It holds powerful sway over our lives, what we say and what we do. It works in invisible ways and is the source of much of our pain and sorrow, as we see it. Strangely enough though, the shadow is actually one of our greatest allies. When we can reconcile with any part of our shadow we heal and with that healing comes a release of it's trapped energy. This can now be used in our outer world for positive, creative things rather than being tied and fixed upholding in place all of the masks that we needed to protect the vulnerability we had.

Interesting. It had never occurred to me the shadow hexagram might be that deep. Hm. Even questions about computer problems (such as the one I'm about to ask) require healing, in their own way. Will pay attention.

Finally, you talk about "spontaneously liberated".

That's a nearly-direct quote from Hilary's course:

According to Stephen Karcher, the Shadow hexagram is two things: the wrong
way to think about the situation, but also a potential within it that can be
liberated spontaneously.

 

[Liselle]

It seems to me that 32.1 is advocating a 'wu wei' approach

What's a "wu wei" approach?

 

[Liselle]

Persevering, the whole hexagram, looks to be more a journey of preparation. It's perhaps more a state of letting things approach us (come into our field of consciousness) rather than working hard with sleeves rolled up ( to use moss elk's phrase).

Oh - actually he was talking about 19 there, not 32. (I didn't intend to derail the thread onto 19, sorry.)

 

[my_key]

What's a "wu wei" approach?

Wu wei is a Chinese concept meaning things like "effortless action" perhaps even doing things without trying to control them. It happens when you're in balance, fully connected, effortlessly flowing and living authentically in the moment. Think Usaine Bolt running 100 metres.

 

[moss elk]

Think Usaine Bolt running 100 metres.

Usaine making running fast look easy is not an example of Wu-Wei.

 

[my_key]

Usaine making running fast look easy is not example of Wu-Wei.

Hi Moss Elk
No worries if you think differently, to me his running is effortless action, body, mind and spirit all coming together in one moment or more correctly 9.58 seconds of moments. Perhaps you could help us all with your teaching hat on to add a positive contribution here and give a good example of how you would see wu wei being manifest.

 

[moss elk]

Wu wei - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Just the first sentence of this article...

"Wu wei (Chinese: 無爲; pinyin: wú wéi) is a concept literally meaning "inexertion", "inaction", or "effortless action"

..should be enough to notice that since Olympic running is a daily, years long, focused, regimented, intense, goal (run fast) oriented willed exertion, it is not "effortless action" nor does it contain the philosophical nuance's associated with the term.

Start there.

But basically, the illusion of someone "making it look easy" is not the same as
"effortless-action" and the magic of doing-without-doing.

 

[my_key]

Wu wei - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Just the first sentence of this article...

"Wu wei (Chinese: 無爲; pinyin: wú wéi) is a concept literally meaning "inexertion", "inaction", or "effortless action"

..should be enough to notice that since Olympic running is a daily, years long, focused, regimented, intense, goal (run fast) oriented willed exertion, it is not "effortless action" nor does it contain the philosophical nuance's associated with the term.

Start there.

But basically, the illusion of someone "making it look easy" is not the same as
"effortless-action" and the magic of doing-without-doing.

Hi Moss Elk
Interesting that you bring in the years of training for an Olympic athelete as a reason why his running could not be considered as wu wei . Aren't there years of training required to produce any moment of wu wei in whatever field of endeavour? Perhaps any training to a degree is a daily, years long, focused, regimented, intense, goal oriented willed exertion. Perhaps you have just hit the nail on the head and that that is the long term path of perseverance....... and then one day, low and behold, the task becomes natural (we have fixed the omen), it becomes a part of us and the exertion is no longer required. Somewhere and in some way our old habits and conscious efforts, the grasping of and clinging to old practices, dissolve and we become re-educated and re-balance ourselves.

You seem very sure that Bolt's running in the moment is "not "effortless action" nor does it contain the philosophical nuance's associated with the term." That's a big statement to be so sure about as no one knows what it is actually like for Usaine inside when he is running at his peak. Being in the zone is a good example of how wu wei can manifest. How you or I see his running is certainly an illusion, viewed from the outside and through our senses and understandings of us. We have little if any understanding of him or his internal world and even less of his unconscious world. However, perhaps for him, perhaps, just a little bit his running actions take place perfectly without conscious intervention.

For me I see any harmonious balance with the universe as being a moment of wui we. To run that fast he sure as hell must have been in harmonius balance with something.

I'm curious still that you have not offered your own example of an instance of wu wei. You tell us again what wu wei is not and that is always the easy thing to do. I'm sure it would enrich this thread for others to have your contribution. Of course you are perfectly entitled not to give an example, and that is fine too and my curiosity will have to remain un sated.