Who is X in relation to me? 1.1.3 >6

[Claran]

Hello I Ching community,

I have been reading the posts here for awhile, have enjoyed and appreciated the keen insights, and now bring my own questions hoping for insights in a somewhat unusual relationship.

I met my first boyfriend in college -- intense, innocent relationship, which ended after a year because of my parents' objection based on his race and religion. The ending was something he could not handle, he barely survived -- literally, for quite awhile. I moved on, but he never quite did -- we are talking decades -- and several years ago contacted me again by a publicly available email when I was going through one of the most difficult periods of my life. He had attained spectacular success in his work, remarkable achievements. He flew over a continent to see me, was as ardent and helplessly in love as ever -- which I found unsettling. I pushed him away, again, very coldly, after a brief period of months. Then recently, I found myself in an impossible situation from every direction with no one to turn to, and this time, I contacted him. He was hesitant in his response, he had finally closed the chapter he said. But I was at an impasse, a more difficult time than the one before when he had contacted me. And this time, meeting by video, I could not believe how cute he is, what a great guy he truly is. But there's a numbness -- we spoke about that at the beginning, that's what we are going through in our personal lives. Slowly though he has been approaching with endearments, and I have been more responsive. He needs to finish a situation before he can come and visit, made more difficult with Covid recently. He's cautious but is slowly sharing his plans -- it turns out he was planning to move eventually to the area where I am currently because of his work.

So the questions to Yi:

1. What will it be like between X and me the next 12 months? 42 UC
2. Who is X? 24.2 > 19
3. Who is X in relation to me? 1.1.3 > 6

For 42 UC, my thoughts are that it could be either the increase in our togetherness that will come, or Yi is responding to my many castings in recent days facing a very difficult period and is giving me a more general boost and encouragement. Having him close by will be a relief at this point in my life that is repeatedly drawing 29s and 28s, 28.2.5. I do feel it's a dangerous abyss I am going through, about to lose all control.

For 24.2 > 19, I think this is referring to his return to me, although Returning to the aim of the difficult undertakings that have created my current impasse will certainly be helped having him nearby and lending me support.

For 1.1.3 > 6 -- who is he in relation to me -- as in line 1, he is a very independent, dynamic person who marches to his own drumbeat, but he misses nothing, remembers everything, everything I have ever told him, and keenly listens to make sure I can wait until he comes, that I am not in immediate danger.... Our relationship of course has been one of conflict and stress, so I am thinking that's the 6 background of our history, which I am hoping that we can conquer and move beyond to cultivating a maturing, rewarding relationship for both of us. What the nature of that relationship will be I cannot tell, Yi seems elusive?

Any help for us in reading these casts will be much appreciated, thank you in advance!

-Claran

 

[danadanadana]

What will it be like between X and me the next 12 months? 42 UC

positive plans are being made and probably carried out.

2. Who is X? 24.2 > 19

Line 2 speaks about a loving person returning with good intentions, focus and perseverance.

3. Who is X in relation to me? 1.1.3 > 6

X is creative, powerful, active and dynamic in his being, which can certainly inspire you to a more active life in general. But line one refers to a hidden dragon which may indicate the source of conflict in line 6. Could it be that his natural superiority brings up conflict within you? It may not be easy to accept his natural leadership, even if it is totally benevolent and helpful towards you? Or maybe the conflict is a result of the long story that you have been through together, it could be that certain issues will have to be addressed eventually with care and mutual desire for accord.

 

[Claran]

Thank you Dana for your response!

1. What do you think about the 42 UC thread discussion here as not necessarily a "positive" or "increasing" direction? https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/fri...s-with-unchanging-castings-hexagram-42.18622/

Given what lies ahead and what he is also going through before he can come, I think we have a real fight ahead of us in getting my situation under control -- it's a tough road of survival and development ahead. To navigate this road with a relationship that needs to be built with dragon issues to be resolved, I am thinking that Trojina's conclusion in the thread might apply... "So I'm currently more aware that 42uc is especially asking one to head in the direction of the good, in the direction of what makes improvement."

2. On 24.2, yes, he has shown himself to be a truly good person (in the ancient virtues sense), not a person with OC issues, as I had feared. Reading DeKorne again, maybe I am the second line, returning to him, who is line one, the virtuous one?

"The second line, magnetic, shows the admirable return of its subject. There will be good fortune."

Legge: Line two is in its proper place and central, but it is magnetic. This is more than compensated for by its adherence to line one -- the fifth line not being a proper correlate. Hence her return is called excellent or admirable. The virtuous subject of the first line is in line two called zhen, the "benevolent" or "loving." It is the only case in all the symbolism of the I Ching where we find that term used as an adjective. It is emphatic here for "Humanity" -- man in his ideal state.

3. For 1.1.3 > 6, your interpretation that perhaps line 1 describes his strong leadership, now makes it seem more straightforward that the underlying problem in our relationship really was what can happen if you try to date a real Dragon.

What had drawn me to him in the beginning was how fun he was, funny, dynamic, scintillating, brilliant -- but then would come dark periods of overwhelming intensity -- it was all consuming, a matter of life and death, he was overwhelmed by his feelings in Existential terms! An intense visionary... is not necessarily easy to have a relationship with, or even perhaps with a true Romeo, even though I am aware of my own intensities that can overwhelm others. This is the issue that I have discussed with him and that I fear, whether now that we are more mature and mellowed, we could find a more relaxed attitude towards each other. He is more distant now, and this actually gives me hope -- but I do worry about that consuming intensity, and have been plotting ways and activities that may help us just have fun for a while, have space to develop with lots of oxygen and sun, laughter and light give and takes...

Thank you again Dana for sharing your views and opening up new vistas
Claran

 

[legume]

1. What will it be like between X and me the next 12 months? 42 UC

it will feel or be generous, maybe?

2. Who is X? 24.2 > 19

someone who returns to self to become more like the superior man of hex 19 - inexhaustible in his will to teach, and without limits in his tolerance and protection of the people (from Wilhelm).

3. Who is X in relation to me? 1.1.3 > 6

could it be someone you look up to and it's causing you some inner conflict? in relation to you x could be cautious, there's some potential but also some mistrust or just not the right time to realise this potential (1.1). possibly also someone who causes you to miss out on sleep, who you think about a lot and who you care about deeply (1.3), this could be mutual, not sure.

if you indeed look up to him or just seek support from him, i'd take the advice from 42: "Thus the superior man: If he sees good, he imitates it; If he has faults, he rids himself of them" that might be telling you to imitate what 24.4 > 19 shows about x, to be more like him become more self-reliant maybe, and this could bring positive aspects of 42 into the situation and can help overcome possible conflict?

 

[marybluesky]

Hello;

1. What will it be like between X and me the next 12 months? 42 UC
You will benefit each other; your relationship grows.

2. Who is X? 24.2 > 19
Someone who's been resting for a while, waiting for an opportunity to approach you.

3. Who is X in relation to me? 1.1.3 > 6
There is great potential but also great struggle. He works through it, but can't expect too much at this time.

Good luck!

 

[Claran]

Hello Legume, thank you for taking the time with thoughtful analysis and encouragements -- I think you are unraveling the underlying dynamics here. I do sense from X caution, realization that it's not the right time to realize the potential, some mistrust or need to confirm motive -- all of it as you say contained in 1.1 (?!) My inner conflicts are coming more from seeking reassurance, it feels like quicksand everywhere.

My appreciation for him is recent development, I can better understand the course of our relationship in how he has lived since we parted, especially in the past decade or so. He has a friend who became critically ill, someone who once lived a flashy, high profile lifestyle then was abandoned by family and friends when she became terminal. For a decade, he has been the sole caretaker, supporting her, going to see her every evening after work to see to her needs, researching therapies and taking her to doctors, taking her and her parents on vacations around the world, and fighting tooth and nail to keep her alive. When we reconnected several years ago, he had been caring for her for a couple of years. Why was he doing this? She did not seem all that appreciative, even hints of contempt for quixotic behavior, and it was not about love or sex.

When I left him in college, he attempted a couple of times to end his life. Couple of years later, it was the same, he was on the brink, his friend called me. His family had moved to be near him to keep him safe. I did not know what to do. I was in a new place with a new person, happily so. But I knew the depth of his anguish and attachment, which felt impossible to penetrate. So I called, determined to sever those attachments, to have him accept the finality of the end, for good. I was clinically cold and effective, and after the call, as he tells me now, he was able to move on and build his life....

Since I left him, every Sunday, he has been praying for me at a cathedral (he's not religious). When we met the second time several years ago, he said he had contacted me because he had felt that I was in trouble, and indeed I was. I had fallen ill myself. He visited, flew me over to a top specialist, took me to the grandest of entertainments ... and it was all just too much. Again. And again I cut all communication.

In this third chapter initiated by me this time, I found out that he is still taking care of his friend. His life has been consumed by her imminent death for a decade. He is outraged by her family and friends who have abandoned her -- People! he says ... agonizing over her sufferings and determined to give her a proper farewell to this life. I expressed skepticism -- she is just a friend, not such a great one either? Which was met with the same incredulous People! reaction. And seeing through his childlike clarity and humanity -- I retreat in shame. Not only could I not do what he is doing, I could not see reason for such prolonged, all out battle for a single person who is no one "special" to me.

She is now truly near transition, and he is besides himself studying external, internal conditions with constant trepidation, fiercely protective of her weakened, feeble mind and body ... And when she passes away, he will pay his respects he says and will be able to come to me. So mostly at this point, he is making sure I am not at imminent risk. But on my part, seeing what he has been doing for this friend and how he seems to have been generally to people these past decades, I have become very interested in him and for the first time feel very vulnerable with him. But the timing and circumstances of this openness on my part are seemingly so self-serving that I wonder how we will steer a clear path....

When I contacted him this time, I contacted him asking him to be a financial sponsor of an organization I founded. I have always been independent -- the small birthday checks that my parents would send as a young adult, I would not deposit -- they were not well off. The impasse I face now is due to giving significant wealth away through the organization... then the pandemic pulled the rug on the organization. But the gall -- I would say to me -- how could you, after the way you treated him.

I hope that wasn't too long a story, I wanted to properly thank those responding with clearer view of the background, and I think X's story with his friend is one that should be shared.

1.1.3 > 6: Who is X in relation to me?
Legume's diagnosis of a sense of mistrust, conflict, not the right time, potential, in (1.1) seems to confirm where X is at -- he texts to check up on me, culling out the pertinent details of my efforts and failures to stabilize the situation, to make sure I'm not in imminent danger (1.3) -- but there's no effort to engage on a regular basis to start rebuilding our relationship.

24.2 > 19: Who is X?
Given the very good reasons as explained for X's position, I have wondered where he will go, how he will proceed towards me, whether he will give us a chance once again. It is reassuring to hear, Legume, that X is "someone who returns to self to become more like the superior man of hex 19 - inexhaustible in his will to teach, and without limits in his tolerance and protection of the people."

42 UC: What will it be like between X and me the next 12 months?

Legume, I think you pointed out the urgency behind the questioning, I was also thinking about how innocent it all was when we were together in our initial relationship, and whether given the current conditions, it would seem like trying to reignite something already gone, whether the romance would bloom, whether we could renew each other and develop a fulfilling relationship.

And I wonder, too, whether it is okay to have contacted him now, to ask him to save me, and whether accepting his devotion now is appropriate .... Perhaps I should ask who I am in relation to X.... Sometimes I think of X as the more faithful version of Florentino in Love in the Time of Cholera, and other times I am afraid that in asking him for his help and opening myself to him now, I am defiling his sacred memory of our innocence, who I am to him.

Thank you for reading all the way here! And thank you for letting me share X, and helping to go deeper in understading our story.

Deep bows,
Claran

 

[Claran]

Hello;

1. What will it be like between X and me the next 12 months? 42 UC
You will benefit each other; your relationship grows.

2. Who is X? 24.2 > 19
Someone who's been resting for a while, waiting for an opportunity to approach you.

3. Who is X in relation to me? 1.1.3 > 6
There is great potential but also great struggle. He works through it, but can't expect too much at this time.

Good luck!

Hello Marybluesky, thank you for your responses and well wishes, it's reassuring to see the team effort coalescing into consistent themes in encouraging ways! It's timely nourishment bows allowing me to take a nice long breath.

Question: where do you see in 24.2 > 19 that he's been waiting for a while? (when he said initially he had closed the chapter, I feared his heart had gone cold on us). Also, I'm still not sure quite who is returning, and whether it's about returning in the sense of literal return (X to me or me to X?) or returning to greater self or both? It is in fact a situation potentially of return in all the ways for sure!

Your summary especially on 1.1.3 > 6 is succinct and seems right on, it's line 3 where you see that he works through it and comes through?

Legge: In the third line, dynamic, we see its subject as the superior man active and vigilant all the day, and in the evening still careful and apprehensive. The position is dangerous, but there will be no mistake.

Again, thank you for the warm welcome in sharing these insights, I feel much more relieved and hopeful.

-Claran

 

[legume]

hi Claran, thanks so much for sharing broader context and sorry to read about the impasse regarding your organisation, i do hope better times will come so that you'll find the right support needed to continue!

as you mentioned the character of florentino, i had some more thoughts regarding 24.2 > 19, which i hope you wouldn't mind me sharing, but i personally know someone who's always been there for me and somehow sensed all the difficult times in my life and after reading that book i realised, however weird and beautiful it all seemed, how unhealthy this relation was at times. again, that is not to say this is definitely applicable to your situation, but since you mentioned the book and the character, and i also know someone who somewhat fits that character, i figured i might add a bit more to my previous interpretation.

what i saw within that person, was that he derived his sense of self from helping others and being able to be there for others, and i found it impossible to redirect his efforts at getting closer to knowing himself actually towards himself. so that could be another possibility regarding 24.2 > 19, though again, i might be projecting something here, and if that's the case, i'm sorry! realising that however, helped me understand the danger of connecting to that person on a "closer" level that he wished for, so if this could be somehow relatable for you, i'd say that 1.1 also applies to you in relation to x, if you're potentially seeing some danger in his behaviour after all (and for some reason you said no to him previously).

i understand that the comparison to florentino had probably more to do with the first part of the story you shared, since, as you say, unfaithfulness is not the issue here, but as you did mention him, i just wanted to make a point that this could possibly be a subconscious warning (the character arc of florentino is quite a negative one, though the book explains through his initial sexual encounter, which he himself doesn't recognise as trauma, why he becomes who he becomes later, it doesn't change the fact, he's on the verge of psychopathy as the book progresses - the way he treated the young girl was just shocking, and the only way for him to eventually get all he ever wanted was by hiding all his madness from fermina). i hope i didn't overstep the mark by sharing these thoughts and having said all that i still stand by my initial interpretation. also, none of this is meant to take away from marqueze's work, the book is still somewhere in my top reads on love, life and getting old, as it's simply magnificent.

i wish you all the best and hope things will resolve to the benefit of everyone involved!

 

[dfreed]

Who is X in relation to me? 1.1.3 > 6

My sense is that X is who he is and he's been pretty darn consistent: he is now grown up and has become more successful in life; he is still able to convey deep affection towards you, tinged with a bit of caution - which makes sense, given how you and your family have acted towards him.

On the other hand, you seem to be all over the map about how you feel and act towards him: wanting him, needing him when you're in distress; pushing him away, (and maybe letting your family dictate how you should be towards him?) .... And so given all that, is it any wonder you don't know who 'he' is?

To know 'who he is' in relation to you - the 'formula' is pretty simple: if you want to know who he is in relation(ship) to you, you need to figure out how you feel and want to be in relation(ship) with him. How do you feel about him, what sort of relationship do you want to have with him? It's not his or the Yi's responsibility to figure that out.

My sense is that to answer your question, you need to look deeply within yourself - e.g. to explore your dragon 'lying beneath' who is not able to act. You should consider exploring your own feelings, emotions (and not X's or your family's ...). I wonder too, is there some unresolved grief on your part, or some family / father issues that are keeping you from being fully involved and present with X?

Best, D

 

[Claran]

hi Claran, thanks so much for sharing broader context and sorry to read about the impasse regarding your organisation, i do hope better times will come so that you'll find the right support needed to continue!

as you mentioned the character of florentino, i had some more thoughts regarding 24.2 > 19, which i hope you wouldn't mind me sharing, but i personally know someone who's always been there for me and somehow sensed all the difficult times in my life and after reading that book i realised, however weird and beautiful it all seemed, how unhealthy this relation was at times. again, that is not to say this is definitely applicable to your situation, but since you mentioned the book and the character, and i also know someone who somewhat fits that character, i figured i might add a bit more to my previous interpretation.

what i saw within that person, was that he derived his sense of self from helping others and being able to be there for others, and i found it impossible to redirect his efforts at getting closer to knowing himself actually towards himself. so that could be another possibility regarding 24.2 > 19, though again, i might be projecting something here, and if that's the case, i'm sorry! realising that however, helped me understand the danger of connecting to that person on a "closer" level that he wished for, so if this could be somehow relatable for you, i'd say that 1.1 also applies to you in relation to x, if you're potentially seeing some danger in his behaviour after all (and for some reason you said no to him previously).

i understand that the comparison to florentino had probably more to do with the first part of the story you shared, since, as you say, unfaithfulness is not the issue here, but as you did mention him, i just wanted to make a point that this could possibly be a subconscious warning (the character arc of florentino is quite a negative one, though the book explains through his initial sexual encounter, which he himself doesn't recognise as trauma, why he becomes who he becomes later, it doesn't change the fact, he's on the verge of psychopathy as the book progresses - the way he treated the young girl was just shocking, and the only way for him to eventually get all he ever wanted was by hiding all his madness from fermina). i hope i didn't overstep the mark by sharing these thoughts and having said all that i still stand by my initial interpretation. also, none of this is meant to take away from marqueze's work, the book is still somewhere in my top reads on love, life and getting old, as it's simply magnificent.

i wish you all the best and hope things will resolve to the benefit of everyone involved!

hi Claran, thanks so much for sharing broader context and sorry to read about the impasse regarding your organisation, i do hope better times will come so that you'll find the right support needed to continue!

as you mentioned the character of florentino, i had some more thoughts regarding 24.2 > 19, which i hope you wouldn't mind me sharing, but i personally know someone who's always been there for me and somehow sensed all the difficult times in my life and after reading that book i realised, however weird and beautiful it all seemed, how unhealthy this relation was at times. again, that is not to say this is definitely applicable to your situation, but since you mentioned the book and the character, and i also know someone who somewhat fits that character, i figured i might add a bit more to my previous interpretation.

what i saw within that person, was that he derived his sense of self from helping others and being able to be there for others, and i found it impossible to redirect his efforts at getting closer to knowing himself actually towards himself. so that could be another possibility regarding 24.2 > 19, though again, i might be projecting something here, and if that's the case, i'm sorry! realising that however, helped me understand the danger of connecting to that person on a "closer" level that he wished for, so if this could be somehow relatable for you, i'd say that 1.1 also applies to you in relation to x, if you're potentially seeing some danger in his behaviour after all (and for some reason you said no to him previously).

i understand that the comparison to florentino had probably more to do with the first part of the story you shared, since, as you say, unfaithfulness is not the issue here, but as you did mention him, i just wanted to make a point that this could possibly be a subconscious warning (the character arc of florentino is quite a negative one, though the book explains through his initial sexual encounter, which he himself doesn't recognise as trauma, why he becomes who he becomes later, it doesn't change the fact, he's on the verge of psychopathy as the book progresses - the way he treated the young girl was just shocking, and the only way for him to eventually get all he ever wanted was by hiding all his madness from fermina). i hope i didn't overstep the mark by sharing these thoughts and having said all that i still stand by my initial interpretation. also, none of this is meant to take away from marqueze's work, the book is still somewhere in my top reads on love, life and getting old, as it's simply magnificent.

i wish you all the best and hope things will resolve to the benefit of everyone involved!

Hi Legume -- the concerns are felt and very much appreciated -- thank you for sharing your personal story and going the extra mile to address the red flags that understandably were raised through my last post in describing the broader context of the castings. In fact it's some of these very issues that have brought me to this community for help in exploring the messages Yi is sending in regards to X and me.

I very much agree that a person who does not address important issues in oneself does not create habitable space for another, that the well cannot go deep or clear enough to draw drinkable water. When he contacted me several years ago, that's what I felt -- he was missing the mark, and I sort of felt bulldozed over. I had achieved success on my own and did not need his offered resources, in fact, the unsolicited monthly stipend he offered was a shocking insult which broke the camel's back of that second chapter.

What has changed in this third chapter is not that I am in this impasse -- as far as my feelings for him goes. It's that I feel that no matter one's motives or starting point in the maturity scale, when a person makes the type of all out efforts that he has made, intricately embroiled in fighting off death for another without reprieve for 10 years -- its depth and significance cannot be denied. There's a cosmic shift, heaven takes notice. As it can't be faked, the person making such efforts also changes. He has been in service of this person, fighting for her life, while those around, including her, question his sanity. His daily fight to give her the best quality of life possible has consumed him. Ten grueling years.... Not just words, gifts, setting up appointments but total dedication that drains him. He's still at the prime of his life, at the pinnacle of his career -- he has made them tertiary to the daily, hourly efforts for this person. So no matter the significant attachment and emotional balance issues as a starting point, this is what he has done. And this is what brings me to Yi with such interest in a relationship with X.

Regarding Florentino .... his reputation in the village was that he was a succubus, a demon that seduces sexually. He had relationships with women of all kinds and ages, including a prostitute (although in his case only a symbolic, token exchange was required), as well as the young 17 year old who killed herself when Florentino and Fermina reunited in their 70s. After all that, he shamelessly asserted to Fermina that he had remained a virgin for her, as he vowed he would when they parted. The thing was, Fermina understood that he was lying, knew that he knew she knew, and they were in agreement that it was meant in a lyrical sense. There's a lot here in this story that to say the least are "red flags," triggers that would fling open the gates of hell itself in warm welcome. But I always got the sense that morality in the story is not "literal" -- the women, including the young girl, love him and he loves her as well. The women he's with wish for him to marry them -- and he loves many of them back in the sense we ordinarily attribute qualities of love. However, he denies them all eternal union, reserving marriage for Fermina. But even if let's say Florentino is a true demon -- what if? What if a demon falls in love? And remains loyal and consistent to the object of his love through vast oceans of time, age and rivers of hell? While Fermina enjoyed a respectable life married to a famous doctor, having children and all the benefits of social acceptance, Florentino's ultimate meaning and reality remained with Fermina ...? This ideological love manifested in all the raw ways of being human is the story arc I was drawing upon, with the image in my head of Florenino and Fermina sailing off with the cholera on board flag to give them privacy as they lose their virignity in their 70s to each other.

... So where does this takes us with 1.1.3 > 6? Maybe even Dekorne's editorial comment on 24.2 > 19 comes to play?:

The meaning of the line is derived from its allegiance to line number one. This can be interpreted as subordination to a high ideal or principle of integration. If we consider Legge's commentary on the concept of zhenas love in the highest sense of unity/union, then the line suggests a return to a principle of love, unity or even the Supreme Ultimate itself.

Legume, thank you again for the kind and generous input and sharing your concerns,

Claran

 

[legume]

thanks again for your openness and more insight on the interpretation. it broadened my perspective on the character development (though i never saw fermina as a saint either ). it makes me see how "maturity" could serve as metaphor for some form of transcendence (in the end all is forgiven to the self and thus to each other) and ultimately humanity (as in Legge's comment), compassion, or love (more like loving-kindness) wins. that's quite beautiful, and also in line with 24.2

here's a bit from Bradford's commentary to this line: When measuring a direction from self, instead of from a path, all straying is done in forward directions, not sideways. Turning around to go back home is also a forward progress. But sometimes this is uphill both ways.