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Why change?

getojack

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the yi tells me that things cannot continue indefinitely along the same path without a change.
why not?
why can't things be forever perfect and unchanging, for example?
yes, maybe perfection would get boring after a while, but isn't it at least possible?
and where does change come from?
is it the natural state of things or is it a deviation from the natural state of things?
or is it brought about by an act of will?
or a higher power?

i don't expect answers to these questions, but i can't help asking anyway.
 
L

lightofreason

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getojack said:
the yi tells me that things cannot continue indefinitely along the same path without a change.
why not?

Hot to cold. Basic thermodynamics. the universe seeks perfect order, no highs, no lows (15). For us we label this as 'heat death' and manifestation of entropy - we NEED the highs and lows to identify. We habituate to sameness, are over sensitive to difference.

Chris.
 

RindaR

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Without differences there could be no creation.

rinda
 

rosada

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How about the concept that things ARE perfect and forever unchanging, that imperfection and change are just an illusion?
 

RindaR

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rosada said:
How about the concept that things ARE perfect and forever unchanging, that imperfection and change are just an illusion?

umm. yes. however, understanding the former concept can help one get here from there... ...at least I found it so.
 
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lightofreason

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rosada said:
How about the concept that things ARE perfect and forever unchanging, that imperfection and change are just an illusion?

One needs to understand one's physiology to grasp much of this.

Our animal nature is integrated with the environment and 'moves' at that pace, driven by instincts. However, the development of consciousness, and so an agent of mediation, acts to (a) increase energy expenditure when analyising and so (b) distorts subjective time experience to a level when time is marginalised, moved from its thermodynamic focus to a mechanistic focus where it is even considered stoppable/reversible!

This 'freezing' of time allows for the labelling of 'things' as if they never change. But with this freezing comes the experience of the 'eternal'. This moves us into a focus on ideals, universals, etc etc.

GIven our neurology there ARE universals, perfect forms, but they come out of self-referencing and as such are universals for neuron-dependent life forms at least but not necessarily 'outside' of that. That said, the neurology does reflect adaptation to 'out there' through internalising the basic properties and methods of 'out there' so these universals can be true universals applicable to all life, not just neuron-dependent life.

The hexagrams, trigrams, dodecagrams of the IC reflect these 'ideal', archetypal forms where local context then adds colour.

Perfectionism is manifestation of a neurosis, be it situation or character, where a norm is exaggerated in some way (neurosis is often linked to context insensitivity whereas the norm is context sensitive - thus anxiety is context insensitive ("my child has a cold, its going to die!") whereas fear context sensitive ("my child has lung cancer, its going to die").

Situation neuroses are easy to 'fix' at the basic level of shifting context. Character neuroses are harder to deal with.

The overall dynamics are focused on issues of, seeking of, containment/control and/or affection (being one of 'us'). These reflect issues of water/fire, rejection/acceptance issues.

Since our consciousness is an exaggeration of our species-nature, we are already on the road to neurosis when consciousness develops - and language itself is neurosis-setting in its creation of universals!

Chris.
 
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hollis

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getojack said:
the yi tells me that things cannot continue indefinitely along the same path without a change.
why not?
why can't things be forever perfect and unchanging, for example?
yes, maybe perfection would get boring after a while, but isn't it at least possible?
and where does change come from?
is it the natural state of things or is it a deviation from the natural state of things?
or is it brought about by an act of will?
or a higher power?

i don't expect answers to these questions, but i can't help asking anyway.

today i read from lise's site, about 27 line 6:

The germ of jaws: danger. Auspicious. Harvest: to wade the great stream.

it reminded me of your questions about change. i inserted: the germ of change is danger. auspicious.

somehow it made some sense to me.
 

getojack

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hollis said:
today i read from lise's site, about 27 line 6:

The germ of jaws: danger. Auspicious. Harvest: to wade the great stream.

it reminded me of your questions about change. i inserted: the germ of change is danger. auspicious.

somehow it made some sense to me.

I'm not sure I see how 27 applies. I think 49 is more appropriate. From Brad's word-by-word translation:

Seasonal Change. Complete the day and then be sure. Supreme fulfillment is worth persistence. Regrets pass.

Or, my decidedly less literal interpretation:

The hour is late, the day complete and I'm going to bed. Catch you all on the flip side. No worries.
 
H

hmesker

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getojack said:
the yi tells me that things cannot continue indefinitely along the same path without a change.
why not?
why can't things be forever perfect and unchanging, for example?
yes, maybe perfection would get boring after a while, but isn't it at least possible?
and where does change come from?
is it the natural state of things or is it a deviation from the natural state of things?
or is it brought about by an act of will?
or a higher power?

Using the Yi is like throwing a stone in the water. Ripples appear, and we see a change. But is the water changed? No, the water is still water.

Beneath the change we see there is something that doesn't change. That which doesn't change is The Essence. Changes are merely symptoms, created by a stone in the water. If you focus on change, you will miss The Essence that does not change. The Yi only exists to make itself superfluous.

Harmen.
 

lindsay

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Sorry, Harmen, but I see nothing below the surface that does not change. I am looking very hard, very closely. I am squinting my eyes. I am using my magnifying glass. I've pulled out the microscope. I fired up the the electron microscope in my attic. I switched on the particle accelerator in my basement. I still see no Essence. Are you sure it's really there? Can you show me a picture of it?

Lindsay
 

Trojina

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Ah see Lindsay thats where your're going wrong. You have to shut your eyes and go inward to find the essence of your self. You won't find it by squinting or looking through a microscope. :mischief:

I found it once for about 5 minutes in 1977, pure bliss it was, indescribable, better than about 1000 orgasms. Trouble is you can't get it back at will, though of course it can never really go away.
 

lindsay

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Trojan, that sounds intriguing. In fact, if the Essence is as good as you say it is, I don't know why I'm wasting my time on anything else but looking for it.

I am well equipped to look inside. I have finely calibrated instruments and practice diamond-sharp trance. Still I see nothing essential. Here is a whole complex of culturally determined ideas and assumptions. Over there is my education hanging like a coat in the closet. Underneath are my animal instincts and drives and hardwired emotions. Up top is the meta-narrative I swim in like a fish. I look and I search but I still can find no 'self'. Where is it?

Are you sure your 1000 orgasms did not come from another source?

By the way, I am very sorry. The last I heard, the score was Greeks 56, Trojans 17.

Lindsay
 

Trojina

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lindsay said:
Trojan, that sounds intriguing. In fact, if the Essence is as good as you say it is, I don't know why I'm wasting my time on anything else but looking for it.

Are you sure your 1000 orgasms did not come from another source?

Lindsay

Exactly, precisely as a yogi once said 'once you tasted honey you never taste anything sweeter' or words to that effect. Like having just tasted it a few times, yes I thought and still think its the only thing/nonthing worth looking for. That attitude does not necessarily serve one well in getting a good life together though in terms of money/relationships/career etc and as countless millions have said before its not something you can get to order because you are looking - so in the meantime its a good idea just to live as best you can i suppose.

I wasted alot of my time thinking nothing was worth doing because i only wanted that Nirvanic experience more and more so what was the point of doing anything that wasn't geared to that. As I say I don't think that attitude served me especially well - so I'm sure you haven't wasted your time in other pursuits.

The blissful experience better than a thousand orgasms (not the same as, though I wouldn't know) I'm pretty sure came from my head alone. That experience was where the unchanging essence dwelt - but I'm only remembering, it was along time ago, though I still get a glimmer now and then. :cool:

I'd keep looking if I were you and maybe one day when you forget to look just for an instant, bam, essence will be there.
 

dobro p

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getojack -

Back to your question for a minute: "the yi tells me that things cannot continue indefinitely along the same path without a change. why not?"

I read an explanation of why things change one time. It's part of the philosophy or understanding of the Fourth Way schools, I think. One place you can find it is in a book called The Fourth Way, by Peter Ouspensky. The Fourth Way people are pretty knowledgeable; if anybody can come up with an explanation of why things change in terms that ordinary people can understand, it would be them.
 

getojack

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Thanks, dobro. Been a bit busy lately, but I'll check it out.
 

dobro p

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Ouspensky got the idea from Gurdjieff, I think. So you can probably find it expressed somewhere in the Gurdjieff literature. If you talk to a Gurdjieff person, they'd probably know where to direct you more precisely than me.
 

getojack

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I found this in a FAQ on a website for the Gurdjieff-Ouspensky school...

Is the Teacher conscious?
Yes. Robert Burton crystallized his higher centers in 1976.

I think I'll take a changing universe over crystallized higher centers, lol
 

martin

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If I remember correctly Gurdjieff's and Ouspensky's idea was that things either progress or deteriorate. So if you don't want deterioration progress is the only way, you cannot keep things as they are.
They also had a theory about how change works. This is the socalled "law of seven". There are two sensitive points where a process will go off course (deviate from its original purpose) unless conscious effort is inserted there. I forgot the details, sorry. Perhaps ask Teacher Google?

I found that FAQ, btw. Interesting. I didn't know that these people are still alive and kicking. And some of them are conscious, apparently! :)
 
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getojack

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Why? Just ask The Beatles...

Because the world is round, it turns me on
Because the world is round

Because the wind is high, it blows my mind
Because the wind is high

Because the sky is blue, it makes me cry
Because the sky is blue
 
B

bruce_g

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Eight reasons for change.

Because eternity became bored
with nothing to do,
and so divided one into two.
Because of two's zeal to make one,
there were three.
Three's a crowd,
and so there were four.
Four got excited,
and made four more.
 

Sparhawk

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bruce_g said:
Four got excited,
and made four more.

Hmmm, sexual nuances early in the morning. That sounds like a party I missed many years ago... :D

L
 
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bruce_g

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sparhawk said:
Hmmm, sexual nuances early in the morning. That sounds like a party I missed many years ago... :D

L
sex makes the world go 'round world go 'round world go 'round sex makes the world go 'round world go 'round world go 'round sex makes the world go 'round world go 'round world go 'round sex makes the world go 'round world go 'round world go 'round sex makes the world go 'round world go 'round world go 'round etc

 

Sparhawk

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bruce_g said:
'round sex makes the world go 'round world go 'round world go 'round etc


Wow, pre-silicone 38's DD!! :D

Bruce, between you and I, why is it that nowadays women watching TV feel the need to constantly point out: "pffft, those are fake!!" ??? Are breast a 20th Century invention?? I don't know Bruce, where has the world gone to? :D

L
 
B

bruce_g

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sparhawk said:
Wow, pre-silicone 38's DD!! :D

Bruce, between you and I, why is it that nowadays women watching TV feel the need to constantly point out: "pffft, those are fake!!" ??? Are breast a 20th Century invention?? I don't know Bruce, where has the world gone to? :D

L

To my knowledge, my 4’10” Italian grandmother had no implants, but she’d put Parvati to shame in the large breast department. I liken modern implants to Ubangi lip or ear plates, and tattoos to decorative scarring. It’s really not as modern an idea as it might appear. I think The Naked Ape is due for an update on these things.
 

nicky_p

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sparhawk said:
why is it that nowadays women watching TV feel the need to constantly point out: "pffft, those are fake!!" ???

I think it's a pre-emptive self-defence mechanism! If us girlies manage to convince the fellas that fake is not as impressive we don't have to undergo hours of painful surgery for the guys to have a bit more to play with! ;) Unless of course you want to!
 

martin

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Strange bunch, these Yijingers. Now they are browsing ancient porn sites! :D
 
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bruce_g

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martin said:
Strange bunch, these Yijingers. Now they are browsing ancient porn sites! :D

Much more interesting than mindless modern porn. :)
 

Sparhawk

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nicky_p said:
I think it's a pre-emptive self-defence mechanism! If us girlies manage to convince the fellas that fake is not as impressive we don't have to undergo hours of painful surgery for the guys to have a bit more to play with! ;) Unless of course you want to!

Nah, you are giving us men way too much credit on our intelligence and feeding too many nip/tuck doctors: as long we have something to play with we don't much care. Is not the size but how many we can get our hands on... LOL!! :D

L
 

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