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Why so negative about mantras? 37.3>42

ninagr

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I’ve been studying Sanskrit mantras for some time, and feel ready to undertake a discipline involving a daily mantra chant. Mantras can be used for spiritual growth, working through karma, or to improve life circumstances (or some combination of these). But whenever I chose a mantra for my discipline and ran it past the I Ching, the answer was always negative, saying it was the wrong course of action. I went through at least a half dozen mantras over the course of a couple of weeks, and the I Ching was very consistent in saying “no.” I felt very drawn to this discipline, so was surprised and didn't feel I understood the underlying issue.

I asked the I Ching: “Why did I receive uniformly negative answers about all these mantras?”

I Ching said: 37.3->42.

37 says that having substance in one’s words is the way of the superior person, as well as “duration.” This seems positive for a long-term discipline literally involving words - if one can persist.

37.3: Being too severe (maybe too intense a discipline; trying hard to impose a direction on events through mantra practice) brings problems, though possibly good fortune as well. Note that mantras can increase the Shakti or Kundalini power, so there is a sense these practices are a “severity” that can open up transformation in the "home," or one's body/consciousness. This is not without difficulty, but is preferable to giggling one’s way through life frivolously. Ultimately, I have to make a conscious decision to work my way through the difficulties indicated in the previous readings.

The resulting hexagram, 42, is positive, and perhaps indicates that despite the significant energies freed up by the mantra practice, benefits will eventually accrue.
 

rosada

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I recently was considering ordering some trifle online. I asked the I Ching to comment and got some horrible hexagram line. I can't remember what it was but definitely said terrible things would happen. It was so over the top I figured maybe it was just referring to my state of uncertainty cause I couldn't see how this little thingie I was intending to buy could possibly create such chaos. And so I went ahead and ordered the item. WELL! Two days later I'm getting calls from my bank reporting all sorts of fraudulent charges on my credit card! I don't know for sure the thief was connected with my purchase but I don't know what else could have happened. Anyway, just sharing that maybe the reading about a problem with the mantra has nothing to do with the mantra!
 

Trojina

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37.3 is generally a call to take things more seriously. You may think you are taking mantra selection seriously but is it becoming a bit of consumer choice, you want this mantra for this and that mantra for that ? Is this calling your attention to mantra selection as take any selection from the buffet according to taste.

This can sound a bit like that

Mantras can be used for spiritual growth, working through karma, or to improve life circumstances (or some combination of these).

Also maybe Yi has been negative simply because this isn't the best practice for you in the long run.
 
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Trojina

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Have you asked a bigger broader question about the whole thing ?
 

ninagr

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37.3 is generally a call to take things more seriously. You may think you are taking mantra selection seriously but is it becoming a bit of consumer choice, you want this mantra for this and that mantra for that ? Is this calling your attention to mantra selection as take any selection from the buffet according to taste.

One does have to choose a mantra, whatever the mechanism. The advice from the mantra teacher that I follow is to seriously consider the range of problems or concerns one has, reflect and use one's intuition, and begin there. Is that "consumer choice"?

Also maybe Yi has been negative simply because this isn't the best practice for you in the long run.

That is possible, I suppose. I had cast an earlier reading for the question "Should I use mantra for self-improvement at this time?" And received 30.5->13 (Wilhelm: "Tears in floods, sighing and lamenting. Good fortune."). This I took to be generally encouraging for growth through difficulty or discipline.
 

Trojina

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One does have to choose a mantra, whatever the mechanism. The advice from the mantra teacher that I follow is to seriously consider the range of problems or concerns one has, reflect and use one's intuition, and begin there. Is that "consumer choice"?


Very much so IMO, not that I'm a Vedic mantra expert but the only one I've ever been given is one I didn't choose from a TM teacher who did some ritual in order to find the right sound for me. I don't think it's something to play with as one chooses given each one will have a different effect on the nervous system of the individual. I mean it's a bit like self diagnosing oneself spiritually, you pick and choose what suits, it really doesn't ring true to me personally but it's Yi not me you're asking so it's one suggestion I could see in 37.3.
 

Liselle

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You didn't say what sorts of mantras you've considered, but I wonder if 37.3 is addressing that? I've never used a mantra in my life, but just offhand I wonder if some are more helpful than others.

37 is a practical, down to earth hexagram - managing a household - so I wonder if Yi's trying to steer you towards more practical mantras? One like, "I will pick up the phone, call friends, and arrange to go out" if you want a better social life, instead of, "I will have a better social life" - see the difference?

(This is, of course, a guess - I don't even know what your candidates have been... or anything about this for that matter...)
 

rosada

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"One does have to choose a mantra, whatever the mechanism"

So is 37.3, saying your way of going about selecting your mantra is the problem? Maybe too general? 42. Increase says, "Blessings in having a direction to go" so maybe you need a specific direction, be more specific about what it is you're wanting the mantra for?

Perhaps you'd get benefit from asking the I Ching what your mantra should be.
 

rosada

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Further thoughts..

It just maybe that selecting the right mantra is not something we can 37.3 play around with and figure out how to do on our own.
 

ninagr

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37 is a practical, down to earth hexagram - managing a household - so I wonder if Yi's trying to steer you towards more practical mantras? One like, "I will pick up the phone, call friends, and arrange to go out" if you want a better social life, instead of, "I will have a better social life" - see the difference?

Thanks, Liselle. I think you are on the right track - the mantras I had chosen were all pretty high-level (e.g.: "better health"), but maybe I need to think in a more detailed, pragmatic way.
 
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Freedda

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But whenever I chose a mantra for my discipline and ran it past the I Ching, the answer was always negative, saying it was the wrong course of action.
I know this doesn't answer your question, but if I were divining this with you, I would want to know more details about a few of these mantras and the negative Yi readings you got about them. Could it be that the Yi was only offering some cautions or suggestions for how to use these mantras, but it wasn't rejecting them outright? Just wondering.

And as to your current reading, could it be suggesting that you just need to be more persistent in your mantra quest /search - e.g. rewarding the women's persistence (sort of like Edison trying a thousand times to find the right filament for the light bulb). And also that there is a balance you need to consider - to be thorough in your search for a mantra, but not so much so that it becomes a harsh and mocking exercise.

all the best ....
 

ninagr

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So is 37.3, saying your way of going about selecting your mantra is the problem? Maybe too general? 42. Increase says, "Blessings in having a direction to go" so maybe you need a specific direction, be more specific about what it is you're wanting the mantra for?

Perhaps you'd get benefit from asking the I Ching what your mantra should be.

Rosada, you and Liselle have the same intuition. I am dealing with several chronic, though not serious health issues, so I may need to be more specific about which one I am addressing, rather than "good health."

It just maybe that selecting the right mantra is not something we can 37.3 play around with and figure out how to do on our own.

Trojina had the same thought, above. It is interesting that the mantra teacher from whom I am learning says one can choose (though apparently some mantras do need to be given by a teacher), and he is an initiated expert in mantra, so considered highly knowledgeable and a trustworthy source. Yet it is always possible that basic mantra is fine for most people most of the time, but not me, or at least not now.
 

ninagr

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I know this doesn't answer your question, but if I were divining this with you, I would want to know more details about a few of these mantras and the negative Yi readings you got about them. Could it be that the Yi was only offering some cautions or suggestions for how to use these mantras, but it wasn't rejecting them outright? Just wondering.

And as to your current reading, could it be suggesting that you just need to be more persistent in your mantra quest /search - e.g. rewarding the women's persistence (sort of like Edison trying a thousand times to find the right filament for the light bulb). And also that there is a balance you need to consider - to be thorough in your search for a mantra, but not so much so that it becomes a harsh and mocking exercise.
Freeda, those are interesting thoughts. I do tend to view my own readings in a harsher light than those of others. I will give you a couple examples below that I had investigated over some days - let me know if I am being too negative in my views.

Will this Mars mantra benefit my health? 1.3->10 (I took this to mean as possibly playing with fire.)
Will Mercury mantra benefit my health? 61.3->9 (Too wavering, not enough commitment, no tangible results.)
Will I benefit from this [health-related] mantra? 45.3->31 (No benefit for an undertaking.)

As to your Edison comment, perhaps you are right! Though it will be a massive task - the Vedas contain literally millions of mantras :)
 
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Freedda

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Will this Mars mantra benefit my health? 1.3->10 (I took this to mean as possibly playing with fire.)
Will Mercury mantra benefit my health? 61.3->9 (Too wavering, not enough commitment, no tangible results.)

As to your Edison comment, perhaps you are right! Though it will be a massive task - the Vedas contain literally millions of mantras
Thanks for your reply. As with any healing art or activity, they often dredge up old patterns, wounds (mental, emotional and physical), and places where we or are energy is stuck ... that seems to be part of the healing process, and I'd expect that using a mantra might be no different.

So, when 1.3 says:
A noble young one, throughout the day, creating, creating
By nightfall looking frightful. A struggle
(But )Not an error ....

I could see this as saying that there is 'healing, healing', but that the healing process will bring up/awaken fear within you. Perhaps too, this mantra is about healing one's 'thoughts' (e.g. Hex 1) - as opposed to a physical wound.

And with 61.3,
Finding one’s counterpart
Perhaps to beat the drum, or maybe to quit
Perhaps to weep, or maybe to sing ...

Perhaps this mantra deals with - and helps heal - emotions, and that grief (to weep), and joy (to sing), are part of that process. And perhaps too that it involves - or you can include - ritual or music with it (to beat a drum). Because the hexagram depicts 'inner truth' - two open lines surrounded by two solid lines each above and below - I imagine that the mantra's healing could touch on or get to some core wound or belief you hold. And that can be a good thing - though perhaps not necessarily easy.

And also, there's nothing compelling you to do this - it's your choice and you can also just quit.

So, I don't see negative messages here, but maybe just a few 'heads up' and a bit more info about these mantras. And as always, the proof of the pudding is in the tasting - I don't see anything here that is telling you to not try these mantras and see how they work - for you.

I hope that's of some use to you.

Anyway, just a few ideas.
 
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ninagr

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Thanks for your reply. As with any healing art or activity, they often dredge up old patterns, wounds (mental, emotional and physical), and places where we or are energy is stuck ... that seems to be part of the healing process, and I'd expect that using a mantra might be no different.

So, I don't see negative messages here, but maybe just a few 'heads up' and a bit more info about these mantras. And as always, the proof of the pudding is in the tasting - I'd don't see anything here that is telling you to not try these mantras and see how they work - for you.

Thank you, Freeda. You've given me a lot of food for thought here, as well as a more nuanced and compassionate approach to this elusive topic. I appreciate you.
 
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Freedda

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Thank you, Freeda. You've given me a lot of food for thought here, as well as a more nuanced and compassionate approach to this elusive topic. I appreciate you.
Yes, we can be our own worst enemy sometimes, which might be part of the reasons someone came up with the Yi! :duh:
 

Trojina

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Will this Mars mantra benefit my health? 1.3->10 (I took this to mean as possibly playing with fire.)
Will Mercury mantra benefit my health? 61.3->9 (Too wavering, not enough commitment, no tangible results.)
Will I benefit from this [health-related] mantra? 45.3->31 (No benefit for an undertaking.)


But, as mentioned over in CC there are times asking a broader question is better before heading off to specifics. Did you ever ask if using mantras at all was useful ?

I mean this does read like a shopping list where my understanding of Sanskrit mantras was that they are sacred sounds to bring one nearer to God, to focus the mind or to distract the mind whilst it naturally finds God by itself. I had no idea they could be used like Bach's flower remedies or something. I wonder if they are meant to be used that way hence the 37.3. Presumably your teacher thinks they are.
 

ninagr

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Yes; see my earlier message. I'd be interested in your feedback:

That is possible, I suppose. I had cast an earlier reading for the question "Should I use mantra for self-improvement at this time?" And received 30.5->13 (Wilhelm: "Tears in floods, sighing and lamenting. Good fortune."). This I took to be generally encouraging for growth through difficulty or discipline.

There are mantras for everything, from the smallest, most mundane concern, to the biggest and most cosmic.
 

Trojina

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Oh yes. 30.5 a need to mourn, release grief and er cry. Maybe that's what you need to do with or without mantras, feel your feelings intensely and let them flow out.
 
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Virupaksha

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Thanks for sharing, I've been learning Vedic Astrology for the last 2-3 years or so and I've had a similar experience with gems. When asking about multiple different gemstones I always got negative answers. Even though mars rules my ascendant, the respective gems for it were not given good marks by the Yi.

Growing up as a Hindu my perception of how Mantras function vs how I've seen some westerners use them is a bit different. Perhaps your teacher might be a little too liberal with using them (I'm assuming they're white)? Or maybe its suggesting something more complementary to your religious upbringing? Don't mean to denigrate non-Indians for pursuing these practices. One of the weirder experiences of my life was being chastised by a white-American Vedic Astrology teacher about observing strict rules when she had pretty poor Sanskrit pronunciation herself. And couldn't pronounce certain syllables at all. She seemed to be under the belief she was pronouncing things correctly even though it was obviously wrong.

I bring that up to mean if you don't have much experience outside of Romance language/Anglic phonetics then Mantras might not be as beneficial to you. Practitioners often emphasize strict pronunciation

Will this Mars mantra benefit my health? 1.3->10 (I took this to mean as possibly playing with fire.)
Will Mercury mantra benefit my health? 61.3->9 (Too wavering, not enough commitment, no tangible results.)
Will I benefit from this [health-related] mantra? 45.3->31 (No benefit for an undertaking.)

These are all planetary Mantras (except the last one, not sure about that). Perhaps chanting those Mantras could amplify malefic effects of those planets in your chart. We'd have to see the birth chart to make that determination.

Perhaps the Gayatri Mantra, Maha Mrityunjaya Mantra, or simple deity mantras (Om Namoh Narayana- Visnu) would work? I wasn't personally 'given' these Mantras but I find benefit in them. I really prefer sticking to a couple Mantras as opposed to shopping around for a lot of them.

Sorry I can't fully parse the answer from the Yi. What others have said here sounds right. These practices have a tendency to purify old karmic energy and that can be a little scary while it's happening.
 
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Virupaksha

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And just a quick note to tack on to this, check out HWL Poonja's biography, it sheds an interesting light on Mantra Japa. He would stay up all night from 10PM-4AM chanting mantras. He stressed deep devotion behind the intent of chanting Mantras, rather than simply a material gain. (I would say health is a material gain)

In it he mentions meeting a Sadhu who was practicing a written Mantra Japa. The Sadhu had written the Mantra all over the walls of this Ashram, perhaps a million times over the course of years. Poonja realized that the Sadhu practiced Japa purely through intellect, and so all those Mantras were a waste.

Maybe Yi is pointing towards your intent? To focus on devotion rather than a strict practice or discipline.
 
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rosada

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Just to see what I'd get I asked the I Ching what should be my mantra. I received 25. Without Entanglement and at the same time heard the Cat Stevens lyric from "If You Want to Sing Out":

And if you want to be me, be me.
And if you want to be you be you.
Cause there's a million things to do,
You know that there are.

I like that a lot!
 

Trojina

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Mantras as I understand them in the vedic tradition are sounds that carry certain vibrations. They aren't sentences like that, they aren't just like modern day affirmations. Virupaksha will know better than I do but as I know them, my TM mantra for example is a sound that has no meaning, it wouldn't work if it carried associations of meaning. In TM as taught by Maharishi it's a sound deemed suitable for one's nervous system, one that charms the mind away from thoughts and into the level of pure awareness. As I understand it the sound may carry meaning on its own level but it's not a string of words or a word we use in language. I think there is confusion here over the word mantra as used in Sanskrit and the word mantra as used by modern Americans who may think it's just some kind of affirmation or motto or somesuch. A verse from a song is not what is meant by 'mantra' here as far as I can tell.
 
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Trojina

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I do like that Cat Stevens song BTW, when I first heard it long long ago it seemed to really doors in my ways of thinking. But I don't think it's a mantra in the Sanskrit sense. We really have taken that word and made it mean something else.
 
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Virupaksha

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as I know them, my TM mantra for example is a sound that has no meaning, it wouldn't work if it carried associations of meaning. In TM as taught by Maharishi it's a sound deemed suitable for one's nervous system, one that charms the mind away from thoughts and into the level of pure awareness.

Oh that's interesting. Not too familiar with TM or Mahirishi, though something as simple as "Om" works along those lines (i.e. no explicit meaning).

In various Yoga practices Mantras are very much "sentences" with a meaning. Since ninagr brought up the Mercury, Mars Mantras it sounded like that's the type of Mantra she was going for? Those are usually used in astrology to strengthen a weak planet or deal with a difficult transit etc.

For example Mercury's Beej Mantra is:
Om Braam Breem Braum Sah Budhay Namah
When doing a practice of Mantra Japa you would recite this 108 times, or one full Mala- those prayer beads that have 108 beads.
1596297740186.png
 

Trojina

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Om Braam Breem Braum Sah Budhay Namah


What does that sentence say ?

'Om' is a suitable mantra for those living as recluses, but it is harmful to people living ordinary lives as it takes their attention off their worldly duties. That's what Maharishi said anyway.
 
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Freedda

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I've been learning Vedic Astrology ... and I've had a similar experience with gems. When asking about ... gemstones I always got negative answers .... the respective gems for it were not given good marks by the Yi.

Growing up as a Hindu my perception of how Mantras function vs how I've seen some westerners use them is ... different. Perhaps your teacher might be a little too liberal with using them (I'm assuming they're white)? ....

Don't mean to denigrate non-Indians for pursuing these practices. One of the weirder experiences ... was being chastised by a white-American Vedic Astrology teacher about observing strict rules when she had pretty poor Sanskrit pronunciation herself ....

... if you don't have much experience outside of Romance language / Anglic phonetics then Mantras might not be as beneficial to you. Practitioners often emphasize strict pronunciation ....
It seems you are making quite a few assumptions here that might not be true and might not relate to this person's reading:

First, it was Indian Hindu / Vedic teachers who first introduced us 'white folk' to mantras, so if they don't work for us because we don't have proper pronunciation, then why did these teachers introduce Mantras to us in the first place? Was it just to make money off of us? (Think the Beatles, Transcendental Meditation, and their 'guru' Maharishi Mahesh Yogi - or my former sat-guru, Guru Maharaj Ji - a.k.a. 'the fat boy guru'.)

And what does a westerner's improper pronunciation have to do with their spiritual understanding? If that were the case then Eliza Doolittle - and her proper pronunciation ('the rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain') would have far better understanding of the Bible then I do. And if you go around massacring the pronunciation of Chinese words - as I likely do on a regular basis - does that mean that neither of us should be using the Yi?

Also, as I suggested above, maybe Ninagr's readings weren't really 'negative' - as in 'you shouldn't use this', but maybe they were saying, 'this mantra will be good for healing your emotions, but it will also stir some sh_t up, so be forewarned'.

all the best ....
 
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Virupaksha

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What does that sentence say ?

That's actually a good point I think the Beej Mantras are all sound-based, which I hadn't realized before. There are other translatable "sentence" Mantras. The Gayatri Mantra is a pretty well-known one:

Om Bhuur-Bhuvah Svah
Tat-Savitur-Varennyam
Bhargo Devasya Dhiimahi
Dhiyo Yo Nah Pracodayaat

This is a translateable Sanskrit Mantra: "We meditate on the glory of that Being who has produced this universe; may He enlighten our minds". There are similar Gayatri Mantras for the various planets along with Beej Mantras which, as it appears, have no explicit meaning.

'Om' is a suitable mantra for those living as recluses, but it is harmful to people living ordinary lives as it takes their attention off their worldly duties. That's what Maharishi said anyway.

That's interesting about the 'Om' meant to be used by recluses (I've heard a similar thing about Kundalini Yoga). However, virtually all Mantras are prefaced with "Om" so it would be pretty hard to avoid. I haven't personally heard of that restriction.

My own assumption about TM has been that it's a secular organization. But I'd have to look into it more because I'm not too familiar with those teachings. Bear in mind it's representative of a particular Yogi (Mahirishi Mahesh Yogi) but not necessarily representative of Hinduism as a whole, which is immensely diverse.

Don't mean to divert too off-topic from the post, this is an area I've been looking into for a while and have wanted to discuss about it.
 

Trojina

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My mantra isn't prefaced with Om. Yes Maharishi was a Hindu but intended just to share a specific meditation practice using a mantra with the rest of the world saying anyone of any religion or background would benefit from it. I'm aware Hinduism is immensely diverse. As I said I don't know much about mantras but am aware the word 'mantra' is now in the west used often to mean something one lives by or would recite to oneself, more like a motto, something quite different to the original meaning. In this thread I'm taking it the word is being used by the querent in it's original sense.
 
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Virupaksha

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First, it was Indian Hindu / Vedic teachers who first introduced us 'white folk' to mantras, so if they don't work for us because we don't have proper pronunciation, then why did these teachers introduce Mantras to us in the first place?

I was reacting a bit to my own experiences. My teacher was pretty adamant about proper Sanskrit pronunciation when she clearly didn't have it herself so I found it a bit jarring.

Was it just to make money off of us?

Definitely money-makers out there (also horny old guys). Osho. Too many cults to count.

And what does a westerner's improper pronunciation have to do with their spiritual understanding?

This could be a possible interpretation of ninagr's "negative" casting. I really think her cast (37.3) was to do with devotion and sincerity rather than a dry repetitive practice one does mechanically. In that way devotion overrides pronunciation issues. I felt it was among the possibilities though.

And if you go around massacring the pronunciation of Chinese words - as I likely do on a regular basis - does that mean that neither of us should be using the Yi?

I generally always feel like I'm using another culture's practice when using the Yi. I'm very leery about inserting my own whims/rules into the practice because of my experience in the occult Vedic world. I don't mean to come off as protective or whatever of these practices, I've just seen a lot of "New Age" folks cut and paste disparate metaphysical concepts and dump them into a pot of occult stuff from other cultures. In that way they glean a superficial understanding of everything and at a certain point just start making shit up lol.

I don't think anyone here was doing that for the record it's just something I'm always wary of.

Also, as I suggested above, maybe Ninagr's readings weren't really 'negative' - as in 'you shouldn't use this', but maybe they were saying, 'this mantra will be good for healing your emotions, but it will also stir some sh_t up, so be forewarned'.

I would agree with this, purging old emotions etc often comes up. If you have 8th house stuff transiting in the birth chart this would be doubly true (especially saturn/jupiter).
 

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