Why Yi can be difficult to interpret

[twilightshadow]

In looking through some past posts for help interpreting a reading I came across one that addressed, what the poster felt, were inaccurate responses from Yi based on how things turned out. In this case, it didn’t appear to be one of those clear misinterpretations based on wishful thinking that so many of us have had. But reading through the discussion got me thinking about how we interpret the responses, specifically on timing, “fortunate” outcomes, and potentially ignored caveats. So…

Are there cases where we maybe don’t allow enough time for the elements Yi indicates to manifest? We think the answer was incorrect when, in actuality, the situation is still developing or in flux.

Does “fortunate” and other such positive adjectives mean the same to Yi as they do to us? Is it possible that Yi might indicate fortunate outcome in a choice that would ultimately help us to grow and change, to move closer to being a “superior” person, even if it will cause us to suffer in the short term? And if that’s true, is the reverse also true? Could it indicate calamity in a situation that makes us happy in the short term, but stunts our growth or takes us off the correct path in the long term? We are often asking questions in reference to getting something we want. How are Yi’s responses affected if what we want isn’t beneficial or maybe just isn’t the best course?

How often do we ignore, or at least not place enough emphasis, on the various caveats that appear in some of the hexes and lines? Many of Yi’s responses say good fortune, but only if certain conditions exist or we or others involved behave in a certain way.

In queries that involve more than one person, which is probably like 99%, how do we know who is being referred to? For example, in relationship questions, with responses that refer to the superior or inferior man, how do we determine who that applies to?

 

[dfreed]

Does “fortunate” and other such positive adjectives mean the same to Yi as they do to us? .... And if that’s true, is the reverse also true?

I don't know what these words mean 'to Yi' but I suspect they had very similar meanings for the Zhou-era diviners and kings who made use of them, and they still have very similar meanings right up to the present.

Both Stephen Field and Richard Rutt discuss what these words mean - or may have meant. For example, I found this in Rutt's translation of the Great Treatise (from the Ten Wings commentaries):

'Auspicious and Disastrous' mean success and failure; Trouble and Distress'
refer to minor mistakes: 'No misfortune' means mistakes can be mended.

And from Field: “a good omen” indicates the outcome of action based on the reading will be advantageous", and “do not use this omen” means to refrain from action", and he "who encounters the counsel, “omen of danger,” will be extremely cautious. If he (or she) is vigilant, the prognostication is (or can be) good."

I believe that what's more important than the specific meanings of these words is what you do with them, or how you interpret how they should be considered:

You can see all of these as 'omens' or 'auguries' of good or bad outcomes, and report your good/bad findings. Or ... you can (sometimes) interpret these as detour or warning signs, where if someone continues to act without regard to the Yi's (or someone else's) wise council (or direction), the outcome will be less than favorable.

For example: if someone asks about their love life (a situation you are not likely to ever run into, right? ), the Yi could be interpreted as saying that their love life is (or will be) good, bad, rocky, filled with misfortune - OR ... it might be saying something a bit more useful but which also requires some thought or action on their (our) part:

"it seems that if you keep not communicating with your love, things will not go well, however, if you do (advice offered) .... you can avoid some or all of the bad stuff the Yi is talking about here".

I think the Yi doesn't ever leave us flappin' in the wind: it tells us about the situation we're in, and if we want (or want to listen), it can advise us on the best course of action to address our situations. And I think it can do this in one cast, one reading - so we don't always need to ask (over and over), 'what should I do now? Or, 'what if he/she does this, that and/or the other thing - how should I respond? Or .... ???

And of course, it is entirely possible that "No Means No", even (or especially) in the Yi! The art of divination / interpretation is - in part - to get a sense of when this is so. As diviners we might sometimes have to offer as part of our interpretation, 'what part of no don't you understand?' - even in (surprise, surprise) romantic situations!

*****

Another perhaps more complicated answer (which you can ignore if you don't find it useful): Richard Rutt proposes that in the very early days of the Yi - when there were only a few hand-written copies available - a diviner might do a reading and then record the 'fortunate' or 'disastrous', etc. outcome in his copy of the Yi.

So these 'prognostications' may have only applied to one particular casting. But when another 'recorder' copied this diviner's Yi, they included these as part of the meaning. For example, 1.4 - "Now it springs up from the deep" is the Yi's advice/imagery, etc, and the 'no harm will come' part applied to an earlier reading, but not to to all readings.

Perhaps that seems a bit far-fetched, so take this 'advice' from yours truly with a grain of caution if you need to. However, you might give it a try some time: to consider the Omen and Counsel and not always the Fortune - as Stephen Field calls the different parts of the text (Rutt calls these Indication, Observation, and Prognostic - this latter being the good/bad fortune part). And if it seems to make things clearer, or if it ends up being good advice or wise counsel ....


I hope that's of some use for you, D

 

[surnevs]

Hi twilightshadow, There is a way to go familiar with the answers given by the I Ching.
We say that it's written originally In Chinese. We, the westerners, know about it thanks to those who brought it here and translated it. But it also has its own language beyond Chinese (Chinese language yes) namely the imaginary language or signs or hints...
Here is what I mean: to write down those texts, which is actually very brief, a few words (called the received text ie the text from which a lot of commentaries and interpretations comes, well this You know but just repeated here for understanding), on a piece of paper and have this at hand now and then take a look at this text, not for to understand it but for to have it present in memory. I have experienced how quickly I forget and by looking at it frequently the text/Omen speaks its own language.
Even though You can't understand what I'm getting at, give it a try.

I have experienced that the text/omen can express itself in connection with reality or the circumstances in which we find ourselves.

 

[Plutonian]

Are there cases where we maybe don’t allow enough time for the elements Yi indicates to manifest? We think the answer was incorrect when, in actuality, the situation is still developing or in flux.

Absolutely yes. The anxiety on our minds doesn't really allow us for careful observation and patient faith.

Does “fortunate” and other such positive adjectives mean the same to Yi as they do to us?

Well, I think "ventura y desventura", how it is said in spanish, namely, fortune and misfortune, try to represent archetypical situations that all of us know, yet in different forms. Now, there's a chinese story that goes something like this (can't remember where i read it):

A farmer loses his horse. His neighbour comes and tells him: "I'm so sorry for your bad luck!". The farmer responds: "Who knows if this is fortunate or misfortunate."
The next day, the horse comes back with a lot of horses. The neigbour comes back and tells him: "¡Oh! How lucky you got!" The farmer responds the same thing: "Who knows."
Next day, the farmers son, trying do domesticate a horse, falls to the ground and breaks a leg. "¡How bad!" the neighbour says. "Who knows." The man states.
Next day, the troops come to town, for the country has gone into war, seeking for recruits. The son, for he had a broken leg, saves himself of going to war.
And so on and on.

On the other hand, we know: that which goes up, must go down, so, in an apparently good situation, only a wise man knows to take the choice no one wants to take, to conserve well being on the long term. Instead letting misfortune come to knock on his door, he sees it coming from afar, and moves before it reaches him (and his people) unprepared. As wilhelm puts it:

"The attribute perseverance is correlated with wisdom, which discerns the immutable laws of all that happens and can therefore bring about enduring conditions."

How often do we ignore, or at least not place enough emphasis, on the various caveats that appear in some of the hexes and lines? Many of Yi’s responses say good fortune, but only if certain conditions exist or we or others involved behave in a certain way.

I think the yi shows you in which situation you are standing right now, and its possible transformation to another hexagram. If the hexagram is not moving, you should try and limit yourself to embody the virtues that hexagram expresses. If you are moving, you should see which line connects both trigrams, and try and act accordingly to that: if it is misfortune and you cant do nothing about it, it is wise to hide, wait, and repent if you have to. If you can do something, you should see how you could make that real. Now, Jung has this phrase on one of his books, that actually might just answer your question on this one:

(I'll cite it in spanish, and translate it for you)

La concordancia con la libido en modo alguno es un simple dejarse llevar, pues las fuerzas psíquicas no tienen una misma dirección: antes bien, a veces incluso se dirigen las unas contra las otras. Un mero dejarse llevar conduce en brevísimo plazo a una confusión irreparable. A menudo es difícil, para no decir totalmente imposible, averiguar la corriente fundamental y con ella la dirección conveniente. Sea como fuere, no cabe evitar choques, conflictos y errores [...] La libido como del deseo y anhelo, y en el sentido más amplio como fuerza psíquica, en parte está a disposición del yo pero en parte se comporta autónomamente con respecto a él, pudiendo darse el caso de que lo determine de tal modo que lo hunda en forzosa aflicción o bien le proporcione inesperada fuente de energía adicional.
(Jung, Símbolos de Transformación, ed. Paidós, 4ta edición, 1962, pág. 82, 88)

The agreement with the libido is by no means a simple letting go, since the psychic forces do not have the same direction: rather, sometimes they are even directed against each other. A mere letting go leads in the shortest possible time to irreparable confusion. It is often difficult, not to say totally impossible, to figure out the fundamental current and with it the convenient direction. [This sums it up for me, and this is why, i think, we all use the Yi] Be that as it may, collisions, conflicts and errors cannot be avoided [...] The libido as of desire, and in the broadest sense as a psychic force, is partly at the disposal of the ego but partly behaves autonomously with respect to it [which moving lines concern autonomous possibilities of movement, or tendencies of ones own action, and which ones express heteronomous movements, or things that will happen no matter what you do] may be the case that it determines it in such a way that it plunges him into forced distress [misfortune] or provides him with an unexpected source of additional energy [fortune].

In queries that involve more than one person, which is probably like 99%, how do we know who is being referred to? For example, in relationship questions, with responses that refer to the superior or inferior man, how do we determine who that applies to?

Usually i try to look at what lines stand out by themselves in a hexagram. For example, yesterday I asked about if i should fix the relationship with a woman, and i received hexagram 56. On the bottom trigram there is a single masculine line on 3rd position; on top there is a single feminine line on 5th position. So, if i had to position both somewhere, i'd probably (by basic logic, which is not always so simplistic neither correct in these matters) position myself on 3rd line and her on 5th line. I did read the line, and they made sense at some point, but i didn't take them in account, since the yi didnt indicate me to read those lines as his answer. About the superior man, it usually refers to a wealthy or powerful person, someone with resources, or someone who can give you good advice. In the case of hexagram 4, for example, you should be able to recognize if you or the other part is playing the role of "master" and of "apprentice". If you feel the other person is acting naive, you are probably the "master" here; if you feel you are acting in such a way, it might be the other person. In cases where there are no one but you involved and you get the "superior man" stuff, it might mean, to my eyes, either go and seek advice of someone who can actually help you in any way, or instead, act as the best version of yourself, do not "see" the inferior person, don't let it act or go its way.

 

[Plutonian]

Hi twilightshadow, There is a way to go familiar with the answers given by the I Ching.
We say that it's written originally In Chinese. We, the westerners, know about it thanks to those who brought it here and translated it. But it also has its own language beyond Chinese (Chinese language yes) namely the imaginary language or signs or hints...
Here is what I mean: to write down those texts, which is actually very brief, a few words (called the received text ie the text from which a lot of commentaries and interpretations comes, well this You know but just repeated here for understanding), on a piece of paper and have this at hand now and then take a look at this text, not for to understand it but for to have it present in memory. I have experienced how quickly I forget and by looking at it frequently the text/Omen speaks its own language.
Even though You can't understand what I'm getting at, give it a try.

I have experienced that the text/omen can express itself in connection with reality or the circumstances in which we find ourselves.

Very accurate! It is the subjacent meaning what matters. The forms may vary, but the meaning persists.

 

[my_key]

Yes. We have to fix the omen, otherwise the wisdom imparted can be frittered away and allow situations to fully unfold.

 

[dfreed]

We have to fix the omen, otherwise the wisdom imparted can be frittered away and allow situations to fully unfold.

One meaning for 'fix(ing) the omen' I've heard is that it describes doing a follow-up reading or divination to confirm the first: e.g that you ask the Yi (yarrow stalk divination), and follow it by 'asking' the oracle bones. This was sometimes done during the Zhou era when both forms of divination were in use. Stephen Karcher suggests it involves a 'fixing ritual'.

My sense is perhaps closer to yours: I think that we 'fix' what the Yi is telling us by taking the necessary time to understand what it's saying; and/or (even when its meaning 'srikes' us instantly like a thunderbolt) that we actually act upon or follow through with what it's saying.

 

[Liselle]

Are there cases where we maybe don’t allow enough time for the elements Yi indicates to manifest? We think the answer was incorrect when, in actuality, the situation is still developing or in flux.

I think this is important. I've always had a problem where if I don't understand a reading, I get really anxious about it. Fingers crossed, but I think I've been doing better with that lately (which is to say, the last month or so ).

One thing I think has helped is I've done weekly readings pretty consistently, and - important - have done a pretty good job reviewing them during the week. A reading for a week isn't supposed to be clear right away, so it's helped me see that that's okay, and that seems to be carrying over into my other readings. Has set a good example, maybe. It's been quite interesting observing things with a reading in mind.

Of course now that I've said this I'll probably jinx it...


(A weekly reading is just an open-ended reading done at the beginning of the week. "Guidance for this week?" or "What should I be aware of this week?" or some such question.)

 

[surnevs]

One meaning for 'fix(ing) the omen' I've heard is that it describes doing a follow-up reading or divination to confirm the first: e.g that you ask the Yi (yarrow stalk divination), and follow it by 'asking' the oracle bones. This was sometimes done during the Zhou era when both forms of divination were in use. Stephen Karcher suggests it involves a 'fixing ritual'.

My sense is perhaps closer to yours: I think that we 'fix' what the Yi is telling us by taking the necessary time to understand what it's saying; and/or (even when its meaning 'srikes' us instantly like a thunderbolt) that we actually act upon or follow through with what it's saying.

Maybe not that important in the context, but the oldest source I've come around, The book of Documents *, it's the other way round.

*) James Legge's amongst others
Emperor Yü (Hsia Hou). 2205 - 2197 BC.
Book II (Ta yü mo), Second Part § 18

And:

Fifth Part, book IV, Hung Fan (The Great Plan), 20 - 31

 

[dfreed]

Maybe not that important in the context, but (in) the oldest source ... it's the other way round.

Thanks.

I don't have or know about your references, but it seems that there may have been different sequences to the 'fixing' - as you suggest and ... "Zhu Bokun surmises that milfoil might have been a supplement to tortoise divination, and therefore considered a lesser oracle .... " (from The Yijing as Oracle Bone's Sidekick; Mesker, 2013)

In either case (and regarless of the order) it seems one oracle was used to 'fix' - or confirm - another.

 

[Plutonian]

Maybe, maybe not.